The misunderstanding of Woodie's "Lack of a downside"

[chirsg]

Woodie's current state is only slightly controversial, but the people with concerns make them known. Woodie, statistically is the 3rd most played character currently. He's dynamite and received arguably the best and most interesting skill tree to date.

The vocal concerns are that when he is lunar aligned, he is basically Wilson+

Prime cut with trimmings.

The thing we collectively forget is that before his skill tree, Woodie was a ruined character. With the release of Wickerbottom's rework, she controlled moon phases, and even before that, lunar storms made Woodie arguably the most irritating character to pick. 

Not only that, he was an obsolete character, many agree, with the existence of Maxwell.

Right now, Woodie is a major player. 

 

But we mustn't forget that Woodie's skill tree was a response to a problem. 

 

Discuss

[Evelo]

Character downsides don't exist anymore.

[Uedo]

I don't think it's a very deep issue, some things are different without obvious pros and cons. Each character is different to the next and that's all that really needs to be said on it, especially as people tend to main characters that resonate with them for a number of reasons - most not being tied to objective strengths and weaknesses. 

With the Wurt skilltree i'm defo gonna be playing her mainly, I find the gameplay loop fun, that's it really. I think Woodie is in the same spot, people like how he feels to play.

[chirsg]

41 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Character downsides don't exist anymore.

Wigfrid can't eat vegetables. 

[mkemal23]

This isn't just a Woodie issue, every character is basically Wilson+ right now.

Only reason Woodie is talked much is because similar to Winona, he's literally Wilson+ like, he even has the beard perk.

And you know what? As a Wilson main, I have zero issue with all of this. In the end if klei thinks this is the best for the game I'm fine with it.

What bothers me is how biased everyone against, the only character thats getting negatively effected by all of this.(Wilson)

You can see this bias if you look at klei streams or forums. When it comes to every single character except Wilson, the "new" dst balancing apply. Downsides gets ignored, Half of the characters turn into Wilson+ and the other half is so powerfull that you straight up ignore their meanigless downsides.

However, for some reason, Wilson is still kept locked behind the "old" dst balancing. And Considering how they could have just locked his rework behind Affinity/time gate, I don't know what was klei thinking by doing the Wilson's skill tree. (They also mentioned how it was to fight powercreep but I genuenly don't know how Wilson's Badly designed skilltree would help with that?)

To sum up, Klei no longer wants characters to stuck in old dst. And it doesn't really matter if you agree or disagree, they can't turn back right now.

Only think they have to do to end this Character balancing dissucssions is giving Wilson and Wes proper gameplay mechanics to both of them so they could catch up to modern Dst gameplay. 

[Evelo]

56 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Wigfrid can't eat vegetables. 

Like that's a downside.

[_zwb]

Before moonstorm and lunar grimoire he's a balanced character, like those 2 things are the only reason he wasn't playable, instead of changing those or just not adding those in the first place, klei chose to completely remove his downside...

As for Maxwell, his power level is too high, it's not Woodie's is too low.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, _zwb said:

As for Maxwell, his power level is too high, it's not Woodie's is too low

maxwell was better at chopping in comparison to woodie even before rework

[Dr. Safety]

30 minutes ago, _zwb said:

As for Maxwell, his power level is too high, it's not Woodie's is too low.

Truth be told, as a Maxwell main, I think they definitely need to tweak him so he isn't so powerful right out the gate. I wouldn't even mind if they remove parts of his kit and then make you need to unlock them again through the skill tree as well as something in game (ex. A perk where the codex can be upgraded using thulecite to unlock the shadow prison, and more workers/duelists where the default max number is 3 or something like that). I love the direction they went with his rework but he is way too good too early on.

[Masked Koopa]

I would argue that having to spend an entire allignment to remove his main downside is a downside in of itself. Most characters get an actually interesting and powerful benefit from allignment (so far).

[Frashaw27]

23 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Like that's a downside.

Regardless of how easy it is to counteract, it is still is palpable downside that effects her. Even if the downside itself can be counteracted easily, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be played off. Downsides like how Wendy has a lower base damage without Abigail, Maxwell's lower Max Hp, and even Wormwood's no Food Hp increases all are pretty easy to grasp the concept of and combat with their upsides but that doesn't mean they just suddenly vanish. Just because they aren't some England level shanking like Warly's that can snowball to making you be put in a tough position to get out alive in, doesn't mean you can just write them off.

I think downsides are a very interesting thing as people tend to stick mostly to explicit downsides like how Wolfgang has an increased insanity penalty and Willow has a Freezing Weakness and think that's all to a character when they really have more implicit downsides in how they play. People meme on how "Wanda's true downside is inventory management" but that is a good example of an implicit downside, another being how Winona can't do more pussyfoot hunger strats with things like Meaty Stew that other characters can do. This can even evolve out more into encouraging a character's playstyle. Wigfrid has a lot of fighting benefits, she also can't eat veggies which you can grow at home for danger free (except if you role the low chance of a Lord of the Fruitfly but that happens rarely enough to not be considered), this leads to "lightly" encouraging the player to fight mobs as she is both innately stronger and she'll starve if she doesn't. The implicit downside is that out of combat she is a worse Wilson. Besides freezing and overheating slower, picking cactus (which she can't use without a crockpot) and spiky twigs, and maybe less Hp penalty from slamming raw monster meat, she has no perks to help her when she's not fighting. The skill tree didn't help as she just gained a faster beefalo domestication time. She has less Max hunger meaning you'll be eating more often and a lower sanity cap meaning you'll go insane faster then normal (which is both a bless and a curse as it makes it easy to get out of with nightmare Creatures but harder to actually get high amounts of Nightmare Fuel without needing outside assistance). The point I'm trying to make is simply labeling character's based on exactly what their description says is a bit misleading as there is a lot more nuances that goes into their gameplay in practice then what is notice that makes them feel good to play instead of just having one big F*** You and one blessing. Every character is difference and should be balanced accordingly, I personally think Maxwell should have 2 major downsides to balance himself out but that's for a different discussion. The overall point I'm trying to make is that just lacking this big "gameplay defining" trait doesn't make their characterization any better as each character needs different things to become better balanced.
That being said, Woodie losing most of his downsides, both implicit and explicit, in his Skill Tree is really the only acceptable time for that to occur as his downsides were really boring. Things like being forced to take a Monster Meat's worth of Hp and Sanity as well as actual starvation by the time it was done was simply not very fun in practice as it made it feel like you were being punished for trying to engage with his kit. The no full moons thing seems big that's really only when your concentrating on the big players like the Moonstorm and an abusive Wickerbottom, both very potent and needed ways to negate them, but outside of that the thing only happens once every 2 and a half hours, and only when you're above ground so the majority of the time it isn't some gameplay redefining thing. I'd much prefer some way to get an amulet from the ruins that removes the full moon penalty so that you have an alternate gameplay route at the start as well as the way to not make the Moonstorms cancer regardless of what alignment you took. The interesting thing about Woodie is that yes, he did lose downsides with his Skill tree while other character's largely didn't, but at the same time those downsides where also extremely shallow and only came up in very specific and/or late game situations. I don't even think Woodie can really get a downside like Warly or Wanda or whoever as his kit is so shallowly diverse that barely anything fits unless you redesign him from the ground up, which I would find interesting but other people would probably throw a fit over. I don't think that misunderstanding of Woodie's lack of downside is that he can now become Wilson+, the misunderstanding, imo, is that the downsides he had before from this supposed position were barely enough for him to really have one in the first place.

[grm9]

19 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Maxwell's lower Max Hp

it isn't a downside, nothing oneshots you except planar if you at least use a football helm and you can still survive ink blight rook's eating attack if you use dreadstone armor and hat and you can still heal comfortably by using anything except food with salt spice but no one uses it because it isn't worth it

19 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

if you role the low chance of a Lord of the Fruitfly

it isn't a chance

[Mysterious box]

 

47 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I would argue that having to spend an entire allignment to remove his main downside is a downside in of itself. Most characters get an actually interesting and powerful benefit from allignment (so far).

I imagine I'm in the minority here but I feel like his curse mastery line already removes the downsides of his wereforms before even moving towards complete nullification.

33 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Regardless of how easy it is to counteract, it is still is palpable downside that effects her.

I feel like the main issue is that the game is very slanted towards meat and having a goodie exception means that her downside just doesn't carry any impact when non meat foods make up a very small portion of the game even more so when you have to put in extra effort to access the vast majority of them. It's clearly reflected in how there's tons of different guides and questions being asked on how to survive on Wurt's diet but none on how to survive on Wigfrids. It's not a case of being easy to counteract but the game guiding you away from a lesser food choice.

33 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Downsides like how Wendy has a lower base damage without Abigail, Maxwell's lower Max Hp, and even Wormwood's no Food Hp increases all are pretty easy to grasp the concept of and combat with their upsides but that doesn't mean they just suddenly vanish. Just because they aren't some England level shanking like Warly's that can snowball to making you be put in a tough position to get out alive in, doesn't mean you can just write them off.

Wendy is a curious case as she counters her downside inside her own skill set but that only applies when Abigail is alive and most Wendy players aren't getting into those serious fights so for your average player she has no downside. As for Wormwood his downside falls under the Warly, Wurt, and Walter side of the spectrum. I feel like Warly's play rate falls under the issue that most of his abilities require farming and your average player doesn't want to do that so for the most part he'll come off as harder Wilson. People tend to care more about how easy it is to access a character's upsides than what their downsides are and will only really fixate on how bad their downsides are when they feel that upside isn't easily reached or a sufficient enough of a payoff.

[Gashzer]

Woodies shadow perk is much better than his lunar one.

Even being forced to transform every night during moon storm event isnt much of a downside anymore since a skill allows him to transform back with some hunger left. 

Plus nothing is stopping the affected woodie from rushing lunar to dismantle the tributes if its annoying the woodie player too much.

[_zwb]

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I would argue that having to spend an entire allignment to remove his main downside is a downside in of itself. Most characters get an actually interesting and powerful benefit from allignment (so far).

by that logic Wilson has even more downsides than Wes

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Plus nothing is stopping the affected woodie from rushing lunar to dismantle the tributes if its annoying the woodie player too much

you can't when moonstorms're happening, you need to kill CC for that, you'd also end up annoying people that wanted permanent full moons that way and moon book still exists

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

you can't when moonstorms're happening, you need to kill CC for that, you'd also end up annoying people that wanted permanent full moons that way and moon book still exists

Celestial portal still exists and again transforming every night isnt a big deal.

Pretty sure u can hammer the tributes to stop the moonstorm? Maybe im remembering wrong

Anyway.

Honey is a great food for all characters but especially for woodie to snack on between lunar transformations. His downside isnt a problem even without the lunar perk.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Pretty sure u can hammer the tributes to stop the moonstorm? Maybe im remembering wrong

only when there're no moonstorms

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Celestial portal still exists

so the solution for playing as woodie after CC questline gets done is to not play as woodie

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

transforming every night isnt a big deal

needing to stand still for around a minute every day sucks

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

only when there're no moonstorms

Yeah just wait till a moon storm passes and hammer away.

Just now, grm9 said:

standing still for around a minute every day to become able to do whatever you wanted to do again sucks

This is the whole tent arguement all over again. 60secs isnt a long time to wait and unless ur base building moose can fight, walk and mine, beaver can fight, walk and mine its only goose that u cant continue doing too much.

[_zwb]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah just wait till a moon storm passes and hammer away.

moonstorm will not stop until cc is killed...

[arubaro]

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I would argue that having to spend an entire allignment to remove his main downside is a downside in of itself. Most characters get an actually interesting and powerful benefit from allignment (so far).

So the game reached a spot were "not having access to an op perk is a downside" :/

i wouldn't care about woodie being inmune to moon or shadows while transformed if wasnt just a free perk without any kind of player interaction. Wilba had a body slot item...woodie just a "cheat and unlock forever" perk...

 

Atleast make affinity and planar perks not avaraible since day 1

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

beaver can fight

axe damage

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

walk

slower in comparison to beefalo and using speedboosts

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah just wait till a moon storm passes and hammer away

they don't on their own

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

moose can mine

slower in comparison to what you could've used if you wouldn't have been transformed

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

60secs isnt a long time

4.2k seconds per in game year

1 minute ago, arubaro said:

Atleast make affinity and planar perks not avaraible since day 1

woodie's shadow affinity's only useful for werepig and FW so it'll be almost pointless if you'll only get it after killing FW

[Masked Koopa]

4 minutes ago, arubaro said:

So the game reached a spot were "not having access to an op perk is a downside" :/

I mean as the game changes so does our concept of what is "normal", that is nothing unusual for games. I don't nessecarily think it's a bad thing if "has a kind of meh skill tree" is treated as a downside, especially because willow is the inverse: she has a meh base form but an amazing skill tree.

[Gashzer]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

4.2k seconds per in game year

At the absolute max one hour out of 10 hours of gameplay. Again no reason to have lunar perk unless you are goin to start moonstorm event or have a dedicated player reading the lunar grimore all the time. Shadow is much more useful for all stages of the game and all situation on the surface or in caves.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

At the absolute max one hour out of 10 hours of gameplay

standing still for an hour

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Shadow is much more useful for all stages of the game and all situation on the surface or in caves

only daywalker and FW