Catapult should be used by other characters, and Powder Monkey should be restored to its original state, for the following reasons:

[adminaaassh]

The following are not all the viewpoints. The discussion in this thread is already quite mature, so I recommend reading through the entire thread to get a more complete understanding and ideas.

• Regarding the modification of the Cannon, I believe it is unreasonable. It will render some of the original game mechanics, gameplay, and certain devices ineffective, thus reducing the fun of the game. For example, the makeshift tree-chopping device shown in the picture (I know there are alternatives, but they are either troublesome or somewhat dangerous, such as spring and winter bears, or other creatures). Also, this is not the only use of the Cannon. It can be used for many other interesting and efficient devices, such as obtaining more Nightmare Fuel, a sufficient amount of Hound's Tooth, or gems. It seems that the developers have mentioned before that they do not want Don't Starve Together to turn into a game of building various factories. However, I still think the Cannon should not be modified because it will not make the game more interesting but will lead to more tedious and repetitive work.

• Winona's Catapult is limited to Winona's use only after this update. This is not a good idea. Many devices rely on it. The developers might want to highlight Winona's role through these modifications. If that's the case, then this should be considered a bad idea. A good update should not involve modifying and weakening some old mechanics, forcing everyone to choose a new character. This applies to both the Cannon and the Catapult.

• The new Gourmet Salt Lick is too expensive (requiring six Salt Crystals) but has only double the usage of the regular Salt Lick. I think the crafting cost should be reduced or the usage count should be increased (although I know a single Salt Formation can yield over 40 Salt Crystals, the rapid spawn rate of Cookie Cutters is quite troublesome, and you also need to sail and use other tools for mining).

[adminaaassh]

Since I don't understand English very well, I used machine translation, but the meaning should be the same.

[zhangsheng]

35 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

Winona's Catapult is limited to Winona's use only after this update. This is not a good idea. Many devices rely on it. The developers might want to highlight Winona's role through these modifications. If that's the case, then this should be considered a bad idea. A good update should not involve modifying and weakening some old mechanics, forcing everyone to choose a new character. This applies to both the Cannon and the Catapult.

I don't quite agree with this point. If Winona's catapult can be used by others, it still cannot escape the position of being replaced at any time. This is unfair to this character.

[Sesekriri]

43 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

• Regarding the modification of the Cannon, I believe it is unreasonable. It will render some of the original game mechanics, gameplay, and certain devices ineffective, thus reducing the fun of the game. For example, the makeshift tree-chopping device shown in the picture (I know there are alternatives, but they are either troublesome or somewhat dangerous, such as spring and winter bears, or other creatures). Also, this is not the only use of the Cannon. It can be used for many other interesting and efficient devices, such as obtaining more Nightmare Fuel, a sufficient amount of Hound's Tooth, or gems. It seems that the developers have mentioned before that they do not want Don't Starve Together to turn into a game of building various factories. However, I still think the Cannon should not be modified because it will not make the game more interesting but will lead to more tedious and repetitive work.

 

The cannon changes are especially disappointing as the developers are right... the game should not become a factory game. However, they prevent this by making existing automation incredibly difficult and semi-automatic. You can farm bats at a cave entrance for a few merm huts or bunnyman hutches, for instance. The automated solution is always far more expensive than any rewards you could reap. The canon already had this high cost though, costing 6 stone, 1 rotten egg, 1 nitre, and one charcoal. While rotten eggs and stone can be gotten in excess, the other two resources require deliverate harvesting. You have to do an extra 2 tasks to prepare for automating with cannons, and there is the disadvantage. 

[adminaaassh]

10 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

我不太同意这一点。如果薇诺娜的弹射器可以被别人使用，它仍然无法逃脱随时被替换的位置。这对这个角色不公平。

My intention is not to use it entirely, but to retain some basic functionalities, such as using gems as before or finding a way to turn it on and off. Winona should still have the ability to accelerate attacks and use higher damage attacks.

In fact, some devices require this functionality. For example, during a hound attack, we need a small device to protect ourselves, like the makeshift one shown in the picture. If it is exclusive to Winona, we will lack an easy option and will be forced to either kill the hounds ourselves, switch characters, or use other tools.

Additionally, if items made by each character can only be used by that character, it doesn't feel very good. For the character itself, it's the right idea to avoid being replaced by other characters after making the related tools. But for players, wanting to use items from different characters but having to constantly switch characters can negatively affect the player experience.

[EatenCheetos]

57 minutes ago, adminaaassh said:

Winona's Catapult is limited to Winona's use only after this update. This is not a good idea.

No, this is a great idea, maybe people will stop switching to Winona, building her stuff, and simply switching back. 

Hot take I know, but I think only Winona players should get Winona’s perks.

[adminaaassh]

20 minutes ago, Sesekriri said:

The cannon changes are especially disappointing as the developers are right... the game should not become a factory game. However, they prevent this by making existing automation incredibly difficult and semi-automatic. You can farm bats at a cave entrance for a few merm huts or bunnyman hutches, for instance. The automated solution is always far more expensive than any rewards you could reap. The canon already had this high cost though, costing 6 stone, 1 rotten egg, 1 nitre, and one charcoal. While rotten eggs and stone can be gotten in excess, the other two resources require deliverate harvesting. You have to do an extra 2 tasks to prepare for automating with cannons, and there is the disadvantage. 

If you choose to use creatures for mining, it will bring other problems. For example, if you set up a server, too many creature sprites in a multiplayer setting will cause the server to lag. This is why some servers prohibit people from choosing characters like Wurt or Webber. Additionally, it's not convenient; if the number of creatures is too small, efficiency will be low. The main issue is that even if the number is sufficient, it is still very troublesome. Modifying the Cannon removes an option and forces people to choose other methods, which is clearly a bad idea. Furthermore, it's not just about chopping trees—there are still many other things the Cannon can do.

[adminaaassh]

I must reiterate that the modifications to Cannon and Spotlight involve removing many existing gameplay elements, effectively nullifying the effort and achievements of players who spent hundreds or even thousands of days creating devices. Cannon and Spotlight each have their own strengths and weaknesses, and their respective applications. Some functions can be accomplished by Cannon that Spotlight cannot, and vice versa. If the goal is truly to increase the usage of Winona, it should not be done by destroying the original game mechanics and forcing players to choose Winona. Instead, a better solution should be provided to encourage players to choose her willingly. The current design, in effect, destroys many previous gameplay elements, game mechanics, and device structures to elevate Winona's status, which I believe is unreasonable. Changing characters specifically is cumbersome, and forcing players to use a certain character may lead to frustration.

I understand some people's thoughts; they believe that this approach can effectively increase Winona's usage and make her unique. However, this is really not a good way to achieve that. These changes have nullified the effort and achievements of designing and modifying devices over thousands of in-game days. It's about removing the original game mechanics to elevate a new one, forcing people to make a choice. I believe that, besides myself, other players who enjoy creating various devices will also be greatly affected.

[Captain_Rage]

12 hours ago, adminaaassh said:

• The new Gourmet Salt Lick is too expensive (requiring six Salt Crystals) but has only double the usage of the regular Salt Lick. I think the crafting cost should be reduced or the usage count should be increased (although I know a single Salt Formation can yield over 40 Salt Crystals, the rapid spawn rate of Cookie Cutters is quite troublesome, and you also need to sail and use other tools for mining).

How is this expensive? When playing solo I sit on an abundance of salt crystals and I barely actively collect them. No, Cookie Cutters are fine. They pose a threat but are still easy to defeat even with standard damage modifiers. Now it will be even easier to collect salt crystals since boats will be able to pass on top of salt formation stumps. >_> The game does not need further dumbing down.

[adminaaassh]

12 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

How is this expensive? When playing solo I sit on an abundance of salt crystals and I barely actively collect them. No, Cookie Cutters are fine. They pose a threat but are still easy to defeat even with standard damage modifiers. Now it will be even easier to collect salt crystals since boats will be able to pass on top of salt formation stumps. >_> The game does not need further dumbing down.

In my opinion, the cost is relatively high and it's quite troublesome. Unless salt mines refresh in shallow sea areas, not many people would go out to sea specifically to dig for Salt Crystals just for the Gourmet Salt Lick. They probably wouldn't want to completely clear out the Salt Formations all at once either, making this item rather unpopular. People might only dig once to make a few Salt Boxes. In fact, even Seasoning Salt is rarely seen being stockpiled by players. It's usually only in the late game, when players have nothing else to do and are looking for something to occupy their time, that they would specifically undertake this task.

Ultimately, I believe that the hassle of clearing Salt Formations, combined with the number of Cookie Cutters and their rapid respawn and frequent attacks, is really too much trouble. I think this is one of the main reasons why many saves don't have that much salt.

[Faintly Macabre]

1 hour ago, Captain_Rage said:

The game does not need further dumbing down.

How the hell is reducing the cost of a new item in beta a little "dumbing the game down?" You can't lob this criticism at literally everything you don't like.

[Captain_Rage]

4 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

How the hell is reducing the cost of a new item in beta a little "dumbing the game down?" You can't lob this criticism at literally everything you don't like.

Because the statement behind the logic is hyperbolic and false. It is far from "troublesome" (???) to clear a congregation of Cookie Cutters and mine all the salt. How come I manage to pull it off consistently as a very mediocre player?

It is if I would make threads and spam that "It is impossible to defeat the Dragonfly since it has 27 500 HP and a player at most has 200 HP which is very unfair. Player characters should have at least 15k HP or the game will forever be too difficult".

Opinions are fine but why keep making hyperbolic statements over every gameplay aspect? People really hate putting any effort into playing this game and rest assured DST would be horrendous if most of the forum balancing suggestions made it into the game.

Six salt crystals sounds dirt cheap for a repairable premium salt lick. I say leave it as is.

4 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

How the hell is reducing the cost of a new item in beta a little "dumbing the game down?" You can't lob this criticism at literally everything you don't like.

And to answer your question, 6 salt crystals is already on the cheap side. A premium items should not come for free. Capisce?

[Faintly Macabre]

2 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

It is if I would make threads and spam that "It is impossible to defeat the Dragonfly since it has 27 500 HP and a player at most has 200 HP which is very unfair. Player characters should have at least 15k HP or the game will forever be too difficult".

Opinions are fine but why keep making hyperbolic statements over every gameplay aspect?

The fact that you think this is analogous to wanting a structure to be a little cheaper and finding cookie cutters "troublesome" says a lot. To say nothing of the irony.

2 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

And to answer your question, 6 salt crystals is already on the cheap side. A premium items should not come for free. Capisce?

I personally think 6 crystals is fine and don't find cookie cutters very threatening, but if the cost went from 6 crystals to 4 or something that wouldn't make the game any "dumber."

[lowercase skye]

How were cannons changed? I'm confused.

[adminaaassh]

Here are some reasonable measures I propose, which will not affect the original diversity of the game while accommodating the current update. I hope these suggestions can be adopted, or if there are better ideas, they are welcome.

• Regarding the Cannon, it seems that code modifications were made to accommodate the new Pirate Raid system. I think it would be reasonable and innovative to allow the Cannon and Powder Monkey to have a separate interaction method on land, which would be the same as the original, while using the new interaction method on the ship.

• Regarding Winona's Catapult, I believe it would be beneficial to provide an interactive method, accessible by left-clicking on Winona's Generator or Winona's G.E.M.erator, to activate all Catapults within the Generator's range. However, this interaction should only allow the use of the Catapults' basic functions.

• Regarding the new Gourmet Salt Lick, I believe it will still be a choice for a minority of players. I can imagine that after the version update, people will likely continue to explore the caves, gather a bunch of Frazzled Wires to exchange for Gold Nuggets, and use Wilson to turn them into Nitre. Alternatively, they might collect enough Meat or Monster Meat, then exchange it for Gold Nuggets with the Pig King (regular Meat can be turned into Morsels by Wilson for even more Gold Nuggets), convert them into Nitre, and finally make Salt Licks. I think this will be the approach for most players after the update (as it is now, though some players have opted to mine Nitre Formations in the underground ponds since the last Acid Rain update). The new Gourmet Salt Lick will likely remain in an awkward position and become one of those items that people will only craft if they have the materials readily available. If the materials are insufficient or unavailable, they might not bother going out of their way to gather them through seafaring.

On 6/10/2024 at 7:57 AM, finn from human said:

How were cannons changed? I'm confused.

It can randomly deviate by ±30 degrees, Additionally, the distance at which the Cannon will start firing at the Boat has been reduced.

[Shining Galaxy]

On the Klei forums, few people care about Cannon, but on Chinese game forums, Cannon is a deeply developed gameplay. Now, the stupid, randomly firing, and killing themselves with cannons Powder Monkey has ruined everything. Some say, better code > game mechanics developed with bad code. But I don't think a Powder Monkey that can shoot itself with cannons is smart. Randomly fired cannonballs are not a good idea even for the functions that Klei wants to achieve, making it difficult for us to avoid combat with Powder Monkeys. You can't dodge them by speeding up or changing the angle of your ship, you can only pray that they won't hit you. And cannonballs are devastating to a fully built ship, destroying its densely packed buildings, and you can't repair them at sea. For those who go against tradition and only use oars, this cannonball only consumes one patch. The random angle of the cannonball means that Klei is going against its own proposed ship designs, encouraging players to only use oars and empty ships. As for all the farms about Cannon, almost all of them have been destroyed by this random angle, and without it, a small part of them could still be maintained. The code update for Powder Monkey won't bring us anything new, but it will reduce the fun we already have, and this change has little value.
 

[Blue Tangerine]

3 hours ago, finn from human said:

How were cannons changed? I'm confused.

In the new version, the monkey's behavioral pattern with the cannon has been changed so that the monkey will not continue to fire the cannon when it misses the ship, and the direction of the cannonballs when the monkey fires them will be at an error angle of 30 to 60 degrees, the angle of error is random. This change is disastrous for factories that rely on accurate and continuous ranged attacks from cannons, it will destroy factories built by players, and for those players who have dedicated themselves to exploring this type of gameplay (conservatively estimated to be around 100,000 people), this change will make all of their hard work wiped out in a day. 

[yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

Regardless of the farm things, powder monkeys' random divation of fire angle is still not a good idea. I can not predict where the cannon balls will hit, which is destructive to the structures on my boat. As Klei encourages us to chase the new pirate ship to get the sunken chest, that is a risk I can't afford.

[EatenCheetos]

7 hours ago, Blue Tangerine said:

This change is disastrous for factories that rely on accurate and continuous ranged attacks from cannons, it will destroy factories built by players

Good

[Blue Tangerine]

Please don't gloat us. This is not"good" at all. 

[EatenCheetos]

3 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

Please don't gloat us. This is not"good" at all. 

You’re right, it’s great

[Blue Tangerine]

Why are you being so mean? Your words are full of indifference and selfishness, which is not "great" at all. 

[EatenCheetos]

Automated factories are something that Klei actively doesn’t want, and never wanted, in their game. Even if this change didn’t affect the factories, they would have changed it down the line anyway. It’s only a matter of time.

It’s amazing the hoops people will jump through to not play the game. Then they come on these forums when something is changed and they have to actually engage with whatever mechanic they automated. 

So yeah, I don’t have any sympathy for this matter and I find it kind of funny that it continues to happen when clearly automation is bad for the game.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

It’s amazing the hoops people will jump through to not play the game

apparently, chopping trees is peak fun and people that use things like bearger and cannons for doing that are just dumb

3 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

automation is bad for the game

what does even "for the game" mean in this context

[Shining Galaxy]

31 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

Automated factories are something that Klei actively doesn’t want, and never wanted, in their game.

If things really are as you say, then Klei should remove Winona and Houndius Shootius from the game, as they provide the foundation for automated factories.Oh my God, Klei should be ashamed of themselves for making a game called "Oxygen Not Included" where everything is automated.