Do any regular PC players wanna play sometime? (Not a server ad/request)

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

See this is the problem. You have played DST way too long an got way too good for your opinion to be unbiased enough as good feedback for klei

no? how on earth does that invalidate my opinion? the game isn't hard by default, you can use cheese that you want klei to remove and easy strats for killing bosses, you just need to realise that you need to figure them out instead of trying to kill them with only a weapon and complaining that you didn't get souls-like bosses from buying a survival game

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Even if half of the community leaves, thats great

???

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

This forum is an echo chamber of skilled veteran players

wrong, most people still think that making bases is efficient 

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Dst is a very hard game to recommend and get people to keep playing

then add tips for newbies about bosses being puzzles that you can solve by knowing what does what in the game instead of dumbing bosses down into something that everyone can kill on 1st or 2nd try effortlessly?

[Gashzer]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

no? how on earth does that invalidate my opinion? the game isn't hard by default, you can use cheese that you want klei to remove and easy strats for killing bosses, you just need to realise that you need to figure them out instead of trying to kill them with only a weapon and complaining that you didn't get souls-like bosses from buying a survival game

???

wrong, most people still think that making bases is efficient 

then add tips for newbies about bosses being puzzles that you can solve by knowing what does what in the game instead of dumbing bosses down into something that everyone can kill on 1st or 2nd try effortlessly?

You just cant comprehend the problem lol 

You are unable to empathize with casual players anymore it doesnt matter how many different angles i try to word it.

For example been trying to get my wife into DST on switch but she thinks its a massive bore alot of time because all the fun exciting bosses are a massive leap in difficulty and roaming around the world gets boring especially if we run into dragonfly whos the first boss you will encounter, you want to fight her but shes a boss that requires a pretty high level of skill so ofc my wife dies which kills the fun. Bosses need to be more accessible in general but definitely for console players were kiting is harder.

Skilled forum players make up such a small portion of the greater unvoiced dst community that in all honestly klei shouldnt care about your fun, because they are missing out in so many more players. Pc players can always mod back in things that have been patched out which console players cant do.

Anyway Klei just listen to grm9 and his opinions im sure your game will turn out great hahaha

[grm9]

Just now, Gashzer said:

You are unable to empathize with casual players anymore

???

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

we run into dragonfly whos the first boss you will encounter, you want to fight her but shes a boss that requires a pretty high level of skill

???

is counting to 6 that hard? even if you can't, you can get marble armors and a wall, that doesn't require any skill, you just need to know that they exist

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

she dies which kills the fun

even back in original DS dying to learn was normal

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

she thinks its a massive bore alot of time because all the fun exciting bosses are a massive leap in difficulty

there are cheeses and easy strats for all bosses and there are multiple easy bosses that you can kill on 1st or 2nd try e.g. werepigs and EoT

17 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Skilled forum players

you don't need to be good to at least be able to kill old bosses so idk how is this related

17 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Skilled forum players make up such a small portion of the greater unvoiced dst community that in all honestly klei shouldnt care about your fun, because they are missing out in so many more players

you don't have any statistics, you can use cheese and easy strats for old bosses if you don't like them so there are no issues with them and they aren't ruining anyone's fun

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

???

???

is counting to 6 that hard? even if you can't, you can get marble armors and a wall, that doesn't require any skill, you just need to know that they exist

even back in original DS dying to learn was normal

there are cheeses and easy strats for all bosses and there are multiple easy bosses that you can kill on 1st or 2nd try e.g. werepigs and EoT

you don't need to be good to at least be able to kill old bosses so idk how is this related

you don't have any statistics, you can use cheese and easy strats for old bosses if you don't like them so there are no issues with them and they aren't ruining anyone's fun

???

[grm9]

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Anyway Klei just listen to grm9 and his opinions im sure your game will turn out great hahaha

idk how to even react to that, what was the point of that? that my existence should be ignored because idk?

[Kingcrusherxx]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

???

???

is counting to 6 that hard? even if you can't, you can get marble armors and a wall, that doesn't require any skill, you just need to know that the

 

 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 opps !!! 

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

idk how to even react to that, what was the point of that? that my existence should be ignored because idk?

No just your very elitist opinion. DST could be so much more popular and better than what it currently is if they balanced combat.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

No just your very elitist opinion

why is it elitist? who am i preventing from doing something? you don't need to be good at the game to kill old bosses, cheeses and easy strats exist

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

DST could be so much more popular and better than what it currently is if they balanced combat

wdym balanced? made easier so people'd quit out of boredom after killing all bosses on 1st or 2nd try?

[Gashzer]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why is it elitist? who am i preventing from doing something? you don't need to be good at the game to kill old bosses, cheeses and easy strats exist

wdym balanced? made easier so people'd leave out of boredom after killing all bosses on 1st or 2nd try?

Killing bosses with cheeses? How does a noob know how to cheese? If a noob has to google how to kill a boss, congrats klei that means you failed boss design. Terrible counter arguement grm9.

Yeah better to bore 1 pro person instead of 100 noobs quitting DST altogether.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If a noob has to google how to kill a boss, congrats klei that means you failed boss design

they don't need to, they can if they don't want to improve though

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah better to bore 1 pro person instead of 100 noobs quitting DST altogether

you don't have any statistics and i doubt that there are any people quitting DST because of dfly, they would've probably quit after dying to spiders if they would've quit because of an optional boss that you can kill by only using a weapon, armor and an item that you can find on the ground in the world existing

[00petar00]

38 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Killing bosses with cheeses? How does a noob know how to cheese? If a noob has to google how to kill a boss, congrats klei that means you failed boss design. Terrible counter arguement grm9.

Yeah better to bore 1 pro person instead of 100 noobs quitting DST altogether.

I agree with what you said about bosses but only specific ones need to be changed, mostly the ones that summon minions are too overwhelming for players.

DST as a whole has always been a very hard game to get into because it punishes players too much for their lack of knowledge but it becomes too easy once you know everything.

The issue I have is that you want cheese removed, why can't bosses be changes and cheese kept and you don't have to use it If you don't like it. Cheese shouldn't exist to justify bosses being more difficult but to give more options to players, especially because some players like me kill the same boss 20+ times on the same world.

[Gashzer]

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I agree with what you said about bosses but only specific ones need to be changed, mostly the ones that summon minions are too overwhelming for players.

DST as a whole has always been a very hard game to get into because it punishes players too much for their lack of knowledge but it becomes too easy once you know everything.

The issue I have is that you want cheese removed, why can't bosses be changes and cheese kept and you don't have to use it If you don't like it. Cheese shouldn't exist to justify bosses being more difficult but to give more options to players, especially because some players like me kill the same boss 20+ times on the same world.

Alot of the need for cheese would be removed if most bosses got a health reduction alongside a rework.

Reduce dragonfly health, give her more exciting firebased attacks. I believe Mike pitched an idea for her to cast a fire "maze" for us to navigate to then attack her. This sounds like alot of fun. Far better than counting to 6 then kiting for 10mins.

[grm9]

5 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

mostly the ones that summon minions are too overwhelming for players

is getting bunnymen/weather pains/a wall overwhelming? if you think that those are too boring, then get better to do the hard, risky, fun and efficient stuff e.g. ice staff or a melee weapon and armor only dfly and no AoE/teleportation/nightmare amulet FW, if you don't want to get better nor spend time getting stuff, use cheese, there are enough options for everyone to be satisfied, meanwhile in case of new bosses you can only use 1 easy, boring and efficient strat

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Far better than counting to 6 then kiting for 10mins

then fight enraged dfly by preventing flying attacks by using ranged attacks on it after stomps after it gets almost close enough to do an attack and walking up to it during hit stun anim to make it do a stationary attack and getting away from it quickly enough after starting hitting it to not start taking fire damage 

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Alot of the need for cheese would be removed if most bosses got a health reduction alongside a rework

it wouldn't, i'd prefer to use cheese against all bosses if their reworks would turn them into something like werepig that kills you through boredom, assuming that i'd still be playing the game, there'd also still be no reason to remove cheese

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Reduce dragonfly health, give her more exciting firebased attacks

then there'd be only 1, most likely easy and boring way to fight it so fighting it after the 1st time would just be boring 

6 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Pc players can always mod back in things that have been patched out which console players cant do

forgot to respond to this, i can't install mods that'd allow me to fight harder and more interesting versions of bosses onto all servers that i'd play on

[00petar00]

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Alot of the need for cheese would be removed if most bosses got a health reduction alongside a rework.

Reduce dragonfly health, give her more exciting firebased attacks. I believe Mike pitched an idea for her to cast a fire "maze" for us to navigate to then attack her. This sounds like alot of fun. Far better than counting to 6 then kiting for 10mins.

Boss health scaling could work but I would still want cheese to stay.

If that fire attack or you know how in different games bosses spawn things you can't walk on, maybe there can be fire maze, If one of these abilities replaced lavae fight would istantly be so much better.

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

is getting bunnymen/weather pains/a wall overwhelming? if you think that those are too boring, then get better to do the hard, risky, fun and efficient stuff e.g. ice staff or a melee weapon and armor only dfly and no AoE/teleportation/nightmare amulet FW, if you don't want to get better nor spend time getting stuff, use cheese, there are enough options for everyone to be satisfied, meanwhile in case of new bosses you can only use 1 easy, boring and efficient strat

I don't want to be required to use bunnymen do the BQ fight for me and watch, I don't find this fun. Catapults/tentacles are character specific and panflute is the only somewhat reasonable method but there isn't an option to fight grumble bees and I don't find running from them a fun fight either.

If all characters had access to catapults/tentacles or other similar abilities these boss fights would be much more reasonable.

We have already had a very long discussion about this and I don't feel like repeating it, you know that we won't agree no matter how much we keep going about this.

 

[Gashzer]

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

is getting bunnymen/weather pains/a wall overwhelming? if you think that those are too boring, then get better to do the hard, risky, fun and efficient stuff e.g. ice staff or a melee weapon and armor only dfly and no AoE/teleportation/nightmare amulet FW, if you don't want to get better nor spend time getting stuff, use cheese, there are enough options for everyone to be satisfied, meanwhile in case of new bosses you can only use 1 easy, boring and efficient strat

then fight enraged dfly by preventing flying attacks by shooting it after stomps and going away from it quickly enough to not start taking fire damage

it wouldn't, i'd prefer to use cheese against all bosses if their reworks would turn them into something like werepig that kills you through boredom, assuming that i'd still be playing the game, there'd also still be no reason to remove cheese

then there'd be only 1, most likely easy and boring way to fight it so fighting it after the 1st time would just be boring 

forgot to respond to this, i can't install mods that'd allow me to fight harder and more interesting versions of bosses onto all servers that i'd play on

Werepig is awesome. Atleast his swings feel real. Dragonfly and most old mobs hitting in a 360 circle feels clunky and unimmersive in comparsion.

Enraged dfly is too hard. Nerf it and make enraged dfly do the fire "maze". Make enraged immune to sleep but weak to water balloons and ice staffs as per normal. 

[grm9]

Just now, 00petar00 said:

I don't want to be required to use bunnymen do the BQ fight for me and watch, I don't find this fun

then try to figure out a better strat or do pan flute method but with kiting BQ by rotating after every attack and predicting her dodges and hitting 5 times instead of 1-3

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

there isn't an option to fight grumble bees and I don't find running from them a fun fight either

you can dodge grumbles to create windows to fight BQ

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

If all characters had access to catapults/tentacles or other similar abilities these boss fights would be much more reasonable

there isn't much difference between those and bunnymen so idk why specifically them and you can swap anyway

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

We have already had a very long discussion about this and I don't feel like repeating it, you know that we won't agree no matter how much we keep going about this

maybe we could if you realise that there are easy and inefficient and hard, risky, fun and efficient strats for all old bosses so they're neither preventing newbies from killing them if they want nor having them get bored after killing them once

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Werepig is awesome

extremely boring

10 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Dragonfly and most old mobs hitting in a 360 circle feels clunky and unimmersive in comparsion

gameplay reasons, making it so you could dodge it's attacks by circling around would make it so you could start circling around whenever you want to dodge the attack instead of needing to start going away right before it starts the attack

15 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Make enraged immune to sleep but weak to water balloons and ice staffs as per normal

why? why do you want to turn the hard version of the boss into an easy version and remove the easiest version? that way you ruin the fun of people that were fighting the hard version and the easiest version, why do you want to ruin their fun if you could also fight the easiest version if you don't want to fight the hard version?

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Nerf it and make enraged dfly do the fire "maze"

why? you don't need to fight it, just don't if you can't, use flute instead of forcing everyone to not use flute and not fight a hard version of the boss because it won't exist anymore

[AliceShiki]

10 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

That's probably a reason to play on a server that allows that and all DST survivor group servers allow cheese. I don't like anyone telling me that I am playing a sandbox game wrong because that simply can't be the case, especially a community hosting a lot of servers telling you that cheese isn't allowed is quite bad in my eyes, If someone wants to host individual server and set their own rules that is completely fine.

I often use cheese because I play long term and don't want to gather resources to fight boss over and over again for thousands of days, at the same time even If you don't use cheese you can use catapults, tentacles, treeguards or houndius shootius to make light work of bosses so it doesn't make much sense to forbid some methods just because they are possible with all characters but somehow it is fine to use character specific methods that aren't cheese but don't require any skill.

 

For the record, I don't think people consider catapults/tentacles/treeguards/houndlus shootius as non-cheese options.

Like, they're all cheesy in their own way, as they're all methods to let you avoid fighting the boss altogether and instead just let the boss die on its own while you do something else. That falls into the cheese definition.

I don't care either way if cheese exists or not though. I personally would like to try fighting Dragonfly without cheese with my friends at least once (they're even worse than me though, and I'm fairly new to the game as is, so... Not gonna happen any time soon) because it sounds more fun than to cheese it, but that's just me and my friends in our private server. You all do what you want in your servers. If Klei hasn't removed the cheese, then it's fine to use it IMO... I just personally don't wanna use it with my friends because it sounds boring to me.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

That falls into the cheese definition

cheese doesn't have a definition

6 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Like, they're all cheesy in their own way, as they're all methods to let you avoid fighting the boss altogether and instead just let the boss die on its own while you do something else

what's the point? how does the definition matter? if you want to separate skilful and not skilful ways to fight the boss, then that doesn't work, because tanking is definitely not skilful, even though it isn't cheese

[AliceShiki]

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

cheese doesn't have a definition

what's the point? how does the definition matter? if you want to separate skilful and not skilful ways to fight the boss, then that doesn't work, because tanking is definitely not skilful, even though it isn't cheese

Now you're just getting into semantics.

I'm just saying most people would probably consider anything that avoids having you fight the boss at all a cheese. I don't care about the semantics you're bringing up.

Like, yeah, sure, tanking deerclops is easy, no denying that. Just like how killing Bearger with Treeguards is easy... But one involves fighting the boss and the other not, so... Well, most people would consider the Treeguards method a cheese and the tanking method as simply efficient.

Feel free to disagree though. We can just agree to disagree in that case. I just wanted to point that out to Petar because it felt weird to me that they considered the Wall method for Dragonfly a cheese (a method that you skip the hardest mechanics of the fight), but didn't consider something like Treeguards a cheese (a method where you skip the entirety of the fight)... Which just didn't make much sense to me.

[grm9]

19 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

tanking method as simply efficient

it isn't

19 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

But one involves fighting the boss and the other not, so...

does it matter if you hold F or not?

19 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

I don't care about the semantics you're bringing up

what semantics? i just don't know what's the point of having cheese mean strats that don't require input since you wouldn't talk about those specifically often, you'd usually also include strats that only require holding a button since everyone can do them too

[AliceShiki]

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it isn't

It's common knowledge that tanking Deerclops is more efficient than kiting it, I dunno what you're on here.

Kiting will make you lose sanity and either require sanity food or deal with nightmare creatures, not to mention it will take much longer.

Tanking is just quick and easy. It's just the more efficient option for Deerclops.

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

does it matter if you hold F or not?

Considering you lose HP and armor duration and HP-restoring food while holding F and can't do anything else while doing it...

While using something like Tree Guards means you got a bunch of wood cut for you for free and you can spend your time collecting wood and making any other stuff you want while the Treeguards kill the boss for you...

Yes. It does. It absolutely does.

Catapults and Houndilus Shootius are a bit different because they consume a fair bit of resources and time to setup, but once it is setup, they can essentially farm the boss for you as many times as you need, so... Yeah, they're incredibly cheesy.

18 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what semantics? i just don't know what's the point of having cheese mean strats that don't require input since you wouldn't talk about those specifically often, you'd usually also include strats that only require holding a button since everyone can do them too

You're trying to argue the definition of cheese, that's about as semantic as it can get from something that is about as intuitive as it can be. You're arguing for argument's sake. Purposefully being obtuse and trying to create a back and forth discussion on something that isn't really worth debating in the first place.

It's honestly kinda strange to see you doing this, since I've seen your other discussions in this forum, and while you can be quite obtuse and refuse to back down, you also tend to hold reasonable points of view for the most part, so I don't get why you'd fall into doing such a lame trolling tactic such as arguing for argument's sake.

Like, what's even up with this paragraph? You're putting tanking in the same ballpark as Treeguards and stuff? Like, come on, I don't need to explain to you why they're different. You know the difference.

You can say tanking is boring if you want, which is a fair point, but it's completely different from ignoring the fight (or its mechanics) altogether.

[Uedo]

Well .... whether cheese is good or not, I just wanna play with people who'll be alrightish to generally work towards progress on a server. 

I probably agree more with @grm9 on this though, they're just saying it's not a big deal how people play. In my opinion, that's absolutely right. 
It's really not that deep though, cheers for the help everyone!

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

It's common knowledge that tanking Deerclops is more efficient than kiting it, I dunno what you're on here.

Kiting will make you lose sanity and either require sanity food or deal with nightmare creatures, not to mention it will take much longer.

Tanking is just quick and easy. It's just the more efficient option for Deerclops

you don't lose enough sanity to go insane if you start at full and it'll automatically get regenerated back to full later and you don't spend armor and healing

8 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Considering you lose HP and armor duration and HP-restoring food while holding F and can't do anything else while doing it...

making bunnymen, catapults and tentacles is also not free

9 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Like, what's even up with this paragraph? You're putting tanking in the same ballpark as Treeguards and stuff? Like, come on, I don't need to explain to you why they're different. You know the difference

the point was that idk why'd you define it that way since they're identical in terms of both, skill and mostly cost, since you still need to stay near the boss for it to not get unloaded and despawn

15 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

discussion on something that isn't really worth debating in the first place

sure, we could stop that, it's just odd to have that sort of definition since people usually talk about patching cheese and devs are obviously not going to patch tentacles, catapults, bunnymen and treeguards since they aren't bugs

[ImDaMisterL]

Hey everyone, remember to follow our Community Guidelines and to take the high road when chatting. Don't target specific users in your comments, that only serves to derail threads and potentially create heated arguments. Let's all be respectful and stay on topic.

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