Bee queen rework idea without reworking her?!

[Gashzer]

Bee queen has always been a messy boss to fight from a gameplay mechanic sense so she is in need of a dire rework.

However i believe this should be a sorta stealth rework where not alot changes if you fight her solo or with people. This will keep the current speedrunning or "uncompromising" communities happy. Let me explain.

Bee queen she loses her honey trail. The honey trail mechanic is just infuriating and just adds to the overall messy feel of the fight. I doubt anyone would miss it. To make up for this Bee queen gains a new sticky honey lobbed projectile during her phase 4. Acts functionally the same as ewecus mucus if it hits you which means this acts as a buff to bee queen as if the sticky honey hits you while you solo her, you will die to the raw damage output of her grumbles. Otherwise everything else remains the same when fighting her solo or with other players without followers.

The main bit of this rework comes if you decide to fight bee queen with any followers. The entire fight is changed to become an army vs army fight. Grumbles will only target your followers (pigs/merm/bunnymen/spiders) and vice versa followers will only target her grumbles. Grumbles and followers will try to 1v1 each other i.e. if there are 8 grumbles fighting 8 pigs they will all be in 1v1 fights.

This allows the two captains of the armies, you and bee queen to have a macho 1v1 showdown with each other. (Or a cheeky gangup if you are playing with friends )

Bee queen has reduced grumble spawn rate while followers are attacking her grumbles, only respawning grumbles 5secs after they all have been killed, allowing followers to do some damage to bee queen. Bee queen screams as normal during phase 3 & 4 panicking followers however grumbles remain focused on their own follower enemy during their charging.

If phase 4 bee queen manages to sticky honey you, the closest pig/bunnyman/merm (not spider tho!) will run to free you before going back to their respective 1v1.

I feel this rework idea honours what i believe was Klei's original intent for bee queen as per the DST trailer which was for bee queen to be fought with follower support. However bee queen in its current state is just too messy even with followers atm.

Pls rework bosses klei! Ty lads! 

[Arcwell]

You are suggesting Bee queen get this mechanic:

No thank you.

I'm no fan of the honey trail either but being locked out of all actions unless you have a follower is infinitely worse.

[grm9]

sounds extremely pointless, honey trail makes kiting BQ not as simple and more fun and you can already kill it when using minions so i don't see the issue 

[Gashzer]

4 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

You are suggesting Bee queen get this mechanic:

 

No thank you.

I'm no fan of the honey trail either but being locked out of all actions unless you have a follower is infinitely worse.

Yeah its a buff as i said.

Its to encourage the use of followers for the "follower" boss fight. 

However bee queen gets a nerf to grumble spawn rate while you fight her with your own followers, shes too distracted by fighting you to spawn more or whatever lore reason you want to make up. Hence if you have 15 pigs verse 8 grumbles they will overpower them for a while. 

I think i would increase the cooldown to 10-15secs before she spawns more grumbles just because it is quite a long fight for your followers.

[grm9]

Just now, Gashzer said:

"follower" boss fight

it isn't

Just now, Gashzer said:

Its to encourage the use of followers

are wortox players supposed to uninstall?

[Arcwell]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Yeah its a buff as i said.

Its to encourage the use of followers for the "follower" boss fight. 

I don't use followers on Bee Queen so I hope you can see why I would be opposed to this.
I do not like being locked into specific strategies, especially when they require heavy investment cost (i.e. rabbit hutches).

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Arcwell said:

I don't use followers on Bee Queen so I hope you can see why I would be opposed to this.
I do not like being locked into specific strategies, especially when they require heavy investment cost (i.e. rabbit hutches).

Edited my previous comment sorry..

She is the perfect boss to make as a follower required fight. She shouldnt be a boss that you can fight solo, hence the grumble spam. This way you need less investment in bunnymen hutches to kill her and the fight will look and play out in a unique and fun way.

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it isn't

Your right she isnt but its because bee queen lacks tight boss design. She feels like she should be a follower boss.

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

are wortox players supposed to uninstall?

Makes his character downside quite a noticable one for this fight. However counter arguement for this is his kit means none of bee queens drops are important to him. He has easy healing, unspoilable food and half sanity drain from negative auras... wortox really doesnt need her drops.

Follower centric characters get a boost tho.

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

bee queen lacks tight boss design

if that means having more than 1 way to kill it, then that's for the better, all new bosses suck because of only having 1 way to kill them

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

She shouldnt be a boss that you can fight solo, hence the grumble spam

there's a ton of ways to kill it when playing solo without minions though? that's nonsensical

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Makes his character downside quite a noticable one for this fight

don't you want the fight to be impossible for him? that'd suck because atm there are no bosses that specific characters can't kill without them being a resource sink, so idk why'd you turn BQ into that

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

However counter arguement for this is his kit means none of bee queens drops are important to him

you might still want to do the fight because it's fun, that's why i do toad on every playthrough, although ig you're going to make it boring 

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

if that means having more than 1 way to kill it, then that's for the better, all new bosses suck because of only having 1 way to kill them

there's a ton of ways to kill it when playing solo without minions though? that's nonsensical

I havnt removed any way to kill her thats the point i have made the fight the exact same if not easier apart from the instant kill sticky honey move during phase 4, but its a lob attack like the flying shadow trio dude not a "spit" like ewecus or spitters. So you will be able to kite it easy enough will speed boosts. 

[Arcwell]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Edited my previous comment sorry..

She is the perfect boss to make as a follower required fight. She shouldnt be a boss that you can fight solo, hence the grumble spam. This way you need less investment in bunnymen hutches to kill her and the fight will look and play out in a unique and fun way.

I just don't understand this take.
Why should she not be possible to fight solo? She has always been possible to fight solo and would still be possible to fight solo if this change occurred, it would just punish players for not specifically using minions against her even more than it already does.

Regarding the comment edits (reduced grumble spawn rate when using followers):
As I've said before, I don't use followers on this fight. This would not change anything for me. I'm not opposed to the idea itself, it's a fine way to incentivize minions if that's what you want to do. Not good, not bad. Just fine. I am still vehemently opposed to the ewecus snot addition.

[Gashzer]

6 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I just don't understand this take.
Why should she not be possible to fight solo? She has always been possible to fight solo and would still be possible to fight solo if this change occurred, it would just punish players for not specifically using minions against her even more than it already does.

Regarding the comment edits (reduced grumble spawn rate when using followers):
As I've said before, I don't use followers on this fight. This would not change anything for me. I'm not opposed to the idea itself, it's a fine way to incentivize minions if that's what you want to do. Not good, not bad. Just fine. I am still vehemently opposed to the ewecus snot addition.

Klei should encourage different ways to play using raid bosses with certain weaknesses to certain playstyles.

Its kinda like how klaus is an anti-follower boss but no one complains about that. You can use followers for him but its messy as f and if one of his deer dies to a follower then you get punished for it.

Make bee queen the reverse.

I want klei to make bosses that i cant simply kite to death with skill. That forces me to use certain mechanics.

[grm9]

Just now, Gashzer said:

I want klei to make bosses that i cant simply kite to death with skill. That forces me to use certain mechanics

they already did that, that's what old bosses are

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Its kinda like how klaus is an anti-follower boss but no one complains about that

because you can kill him quickly and easily with x1 damage multiplier and minions are bad against many bosses anyway

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

they already did that, that's what old bosses are

because you can kill him quickly and easily with x1 damage multiplier and minions are bad against many bosses anyway

Man this forum lacks real creative ideas for this game.

You either want to be able to fully automate bosses for zero effort or be able to solo everything with skill.

But if someone suggests locking a boss behind a certain playstyle you guys lose your minds!

As you say grm9, minions arnt great against many bosses so make them great against bee queen by having the fight play out in a unique way.

Its like everyone here is anti fun and only cares about boss speedruns or automating fights for megabase resources. 

The worst thing is klei is balancing the game with these two extremes in mind. 

Madness.

[Arcwell]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei should encourage different ways to play using raid bosses with certain weaknesses to certain playstyles.

Its kinda like how klaus is an anti-follower boss but no one complains about that. You can use followers for him but its messy as f and if one of his deer dies to a follower then you get punished for it.

Make bee queen the reverse.

I want klei to make bosses that i cant simply kite to death with skill. That forces me to use certain mechanics.

Okay, well, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

Your proposed change would not prevent the possibility of kiting it to death (unless you're suggesting it can't miss or be prevented), nor do I think it should.

I personally think Bee Queen already encourages plenty of playstyles that aren't just kiting, whether it be minions, panflutes, fire, or more character-specific options like shadow prison/tentacles/catapults/willow spells.

[00petar00]

The only problem with BQ is her minion summoning and you want to make that the main focus of the fight.

Honey trail is a unique mechanic that I really like, we don't need to have it removed to copy paste ability that already exists in the game, the main problem with new bosses is that they are linear so we need more unique mechanics not less.

If BQ must have minions they should scale based on player number.

[Gashzer]

Well my idea only adds more strategies it doesnt remove any. 

And it adds abit of extra fun risk during last phase while also removing the tedious honey trail.

Win-win don't you think Klei? 

[grm9]

34 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You either want to be able to fully automate bosses for zero effort or be able to solo everything with skill

in what message did i say that?

34 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

As you say grm9, minions arnt great against many bosses so make them great against bee queen by having the fight play out in a unique way

they're already efficient against her, your idea is pointless

34 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

But if someone suggests locking a boss behind a certain playstyle you guys lose your minds!

because that's dumb and pointless, people'll only complain more because of that

35 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Its like everyone here is anti fun

no, we just don't want you to ruin our fun

35 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

only cares about boss speedruns

dumbest argument you could've brought up, there are only 2 people that did solo FW runs this year and both don't have a forums account, speedrunning isn't the reason

38 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

automating fights for megabase resources

so?

12 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

while also removing the tedious honey trail

fun*

12 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Well my idea only adds more strategies it doesnt remove any

it doesn't add anything, you can already use minions

[Gashzer]

Its ok grm9, klei knows im right and thats all that counts 

[Mike23Ua]

I think that Klei can definitely update old areas of their game, like how they changed Ancient Guardian & Deerclops.

When it comes to Bee Queen I’d love to see her try to butt slam the player with her stinger and get stuck in the ground. But other than that I haven’t got any clues what changes she might need.

[grm9]

26 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

When it comes to Bee Queen I’d love to see her try to butt slam the player with her stinger and get stuck in the ground

not another braindead "dodge an attack to stun the boss for 10 seconds" fight

[arubaro]

Horrible

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

not another braindead "dodge an attack to stun the boss for 10 seconds" fight

What kind of games do you even play? I’m sorry I just I gotta ask, in most games I’ve played bosses always have a predictable repeat pattern, they’ll spam a few attacks at you, then exhaust themselves out and end up vulnerable for attacking, even the best and most difficult RogueLike games have this predictable repeat enemy pattern which involves vulnerability windows and stun phases.

 

[Ridley]

7 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Bee queen has always been a messy boss to fight from a gameplay mechanic sense so she is in need of a dire rework.

However i believe this should be a sorta stealth rework where not alot changes if you fight her solo or with people. This will keep the current speedrunning or "uncompromising" communities happy. Let me explain.

Bee queen she loses her honey trail. The honey trail mechanic is just infuriating and just adds to the overall messy feel of the fight. I doubt anyone would miss it. To make up for this Bee queen gains a new sticky honey lobbed projectile during her phase 4. Acts functionally the same as ewecus mucus if it hits you which means this acts as a buff to bee queen as if the sticky honey hits you while you solo her, you will die to the raw damage output of her grumbles. Otherwise everything else remains the same when fighting her solo or with other players without followers.

The main bit of this rework comes if you decide to fight bee queen with any followers. The entire fight is changed to become an army vs army fight. Grumbles will only target your followers (pigs/merm/bunnymen/spiders) and vice versa followers will only target her grumbles. Grumbles and followers will try to 1v1 each other i.e. if there are 8 grumbles fighting 8 pigs they will all be in 1v1 fights.

This allows the two captains of the armies, you and bee queen to have a macho 1v1 showdown with each other. (Or a cheeky gangup if you are playing with friends )

Bee queen has reduced grumble spawn rate while followers are attacking her grumbles, only respawning grumbles 5secs after they all have been killed, allowing followers to do some damage to bee queen. Bee queen screams as normal during phase 3 & 4 panicking followers however grumbles remain focused on their own follower enemy during their charging.

If phase 4 bee queen manages to sticky honey you, the closest pig/bunnyman/merm (not spider tho!) will run to free you before going back to their respective 1v1.

I feel this rework idea honours what i believe was Klei's original intent for bee queen as per the DST trailer which was for bee queen to be fought with follower support. However bee queen in its current state is just too messy even with followers atm.

Pls rework bosses klei! Ty lads! 

I don't like using a horde of Bunnymen to kill Beequeen because they do all the fighting while I just farm. Your suggestion is actually a super cool twist on it though. I am not sure what all the resistance to this idea is because it adds a new way to fight without imposing on the old ways. The old guard is feeling spry I guess.

[Cheggf]

So instead of a unique fight with very fun dodging you have a beefalo that will stunlock you to death unless you amass an army of followers. If you're fine with making an army of followers, why even suggest this change that forces everyone to do what you do? You already win the fight.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

So instead of a unique fight with very fun dodging you have a beefalo that will stunlock you to death unless you amass an army of followers. If you're fine with making an army of followers, why even suggest this change that forces everyone to do what you do? You already win the fight.

Thats the point, it doesnt enforce a change at all.

Except honey trail removal but thats not the main rework idea here.

20 merm guards will still steamroll her as per normal. It just means you are working with your followers instead of watching them chase bee queen stupidly.

1 hour ago, Ridley said:

I don't like using a horde of Bunnymen to kill Beequeen because they do all the fighting while I just farm. Your suggestion is actually a super cool twist on it though. I am not sure what all the resistance to this idea is because it adds a new way to fight without imposing on the old ways. The old guard is feeling spry I guess.

No idea what the resistance is about. Swapping a honey trail for a honey lob attack is the only real difference if you fight her solo. Otherwise my idea is a fun buff to follower users.

Atleast the honey attack adds another dynamic risk to the fight. Honey trail adds zero fun what so ever.

People on these forums are 100% against having fun. Its mad.

Cheers lad for your support