Winona changes and skill tree concept

[Mortalbane]

My opinion on the current Winona

Winona is considered boring and a “switch character”, because after placing her catapults every character can use them, and Winona herself becomes kinda useless. Imagine any character being able to summon Abigail from her flower, or casting spells with the Codex or books.
Crafting speed bonus or a free slap from Charlie is not something people would chase, but it is a nice addition. Trusty tape is good, but where have you seen people fixing clothes with duct tape?
So, Winona is used by experienced players for farming and boss setups, mostly as a switch character, and at the public servers she enjoys a glorious zero pick rate.

I think Winona could be an expert builder, who takes basebuilding to another level. After all, unlike other survivors, she has actual skills in this department.
She could provide tools for her team the same way Wigfrid hands out spears and helmets, and also she could repair those tools, as well as weapons and armor.

Base kit changes

- when above 50% hunger, Winona has increased crafting speed. When below 50% - reduced.

- Trusty Tape requires papyrus instead of grass to be crafted, and has charges, like the Sewing Kit.
It cannot be used on clothing, but instead is used to restore some durability to tools, non-magical weapons and armor.
It can stop boat leaks, restoring a very small amount of boat hp.
It can patch up Thermal Stone, which by the way a sewing kit should be unable to do. Cuz how do you sew up a stone?

- Winona’s generators and GEMerators can be turned on and off. I'd also nerf the amount of structures they can support by default, and increase it back in the skill tree.

- Winona’s catapults don’t regenerate health, but using Trusty Tape on them restores a moderate amount of hp.

- Searchlight is replaced by the Lightstick, which is basically an electrical lantern on a stick, but with yellow light and slightly smaller radius.

 

Skill tree

Expert toolmaker branch

perk examples:

- make better versions of starting tools, which in addition to flint and twigs also require stone, but have more uses.
To avoid creating new names for tools, they can have Winona’s before their name. Would be nice to also see slightly changed visuals.

- make better golden tools that have even more uses, including the Sumptuous Hammer.

- learn to build Tool Rack, a high-capacity chest that only stores tools.

- increase mining/chopping/hammering damage done by the tools Winona makes.

- while above 50% hunger, Winona has increased mining/chopping/hammering speed.

- Trusty tape has more charges.

- Trusty tape restores more durability to tools and gear and repairs more of the catapults and boat hp, if used by Winona.

 

Expert builder branch

perk examples:

- catapult perks, like increased health / damage / attack speed.

- non-magical structures hammered by Winona yield 100% materials. This would make her catapults portable, as well as making basebuilding a lot easier in many ways.

- non-magical structures made by Winona require less materials to build.

- learn to build Worker Cabin, a tent made out of boards and cut stone, which has more uses and restores hp and sanity faster when sleeping in it. Or it can restore stats at normal rate, but have infinite uses. Or it can be used at any time of the day, but drain more hunger. Because we know that workers do nothing in their cabins but having lunch.

- learn to build Spacious Chest with 12 slots.

- learn to build Sturdy Wall and Sturdy Gate, which are longer (several wall units), and aren’t destroyed by catapults. People use all sorts of weird objects as walls in their farms, so why not just give them normal walls.



Electrical engineer branch

perk examples:

- increase maximum number of buildings supported by generators and GEMerators.

- reduce energy consumed by the supported buildings, or increase energy capacity of all generator types.

- learn to upgrade generators with lightning rods. They will now absorb lightning to refuel some of the charge.

- learn to craft Power Cells from nitre and gold, which refuel generators by a lot.

- learn to craft a Potato Battery out of a giant potato (yeah, i saw Klei concept art for that one). It acts as a regular generator, but with low energy pool. It can't be turned off, and stops working once the potato spoils, then a new giant potato has to be carried to it.

- learn to craft electric versions of Lantern and Miner Hat, which are recharged by generators and power cells, but can’t be refueled with bulbs/fireflies anymore. Their light color also becomes yellow rather than white.

- learn to craft Portable Generator, a backpack that can only store nitre and power cells, and has its own charge shown as durability. When equipped or placed on the ground, it acts like a usual generator, recharging all electrical equipment and powering structures in a small radius. Portable generator uses the stored nitre or power cells to replenish its charge. When you are hit while wearing the portable generator with enough charge, the attacker receives electrical damage at the cost of some charge.

- learn to craft Battle Prod, a weapon with charge shown as durability. When charged, it acts as a weaker version of the Morning Star. It doesn’t break upon reaching 0 charge, but loses almost all damage.

 

Affinity perks

Shadow

- create Shadow Power Cells using nightmare fuel.

- craft a variety of Thulecite tools and gear.

- make a Nightmare Fuel Extractor, a trap that catches a single nightmare creature and slowly kills it, dropping a lot of fuel in the process. Originally i thought about it for Wilson or WX in my reworks, but Winona is also a good candidate for this.

 

Lunar

- GEMerators give special effects to the catapults they power, depending on the socketed gems.

- some scrap-related stuff. Perhaps, Wagstaff’s Thumper can be imported from Hamlet, since Wagstaff isn’t going to be playable. Or some excavation machine, which will be a slow but infinite source of stone-related stuff. Or some portals, like Winona made in her animated short, allowing to create your own wormholes. Or robots and drones. With tech, any gameplay mechanic can be added

[Mortalbane]

Wow, Winona got no replies, yet Wendy changes i made are bustling with activity.
Guess people really don't care about poor Winona

[Cuernito.]

Hiii Winona main here, its true that winona's mains doesnt have as much time to spare as people that like wendy but remember that wendy is a noob friendly character while winona with her slow crafting at low hunger can be hard for some people, so yep this post being empty makes sense to me.

I agree with almost all you are posting here however i dont like the ideas of making generators and catapuls weaker, they are perfect. And i already made a post in the past talking about a good Nona skill tree but in summary i think Nona skill tree should be about 4 paths to choose or combine, The base builder, the gadgets creator, the blacksmith, and the tuned machinary.

[Cheggf]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:22 AM, Mortalbane said:

Winona is considered boring and a “switch character”, because after placing her catapults every character can use them, and Winona herself becomes kinda useless. Imagine any character being able to summon Abigail from her flower, or casting spells with the Codex or books.

That's already true. Once you place the tentacle traps they stay there. Once you farm the feathers with BotW, you keep them. Once you make infinite resources with AS or AH, you keep them. Once you get a bunch of fish with TASG and put them somewhere they won't spoil (fishin' bin or bundling wrap), they stay there. Every single character is a "swap character", especially Wickerbottom & Wendy (swap to her to use her AoE to do whatever), two characters you list as being good characters who aren't "swap characters".

On 5/3/2024 at 3:22 AM, Mortalbane said:

So, Winona is used by experienced players for farming and boss setups, mostly as a switch character, and at the public servers she enjoys a glorious zero pick rate.

More popular than Wurt, Warly, Walter, and Wes.

[Mortalbane]

21 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Every single character is a "swap character"

I can't agree with you here

22 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

More popular than Wurt, Warly, Walter, and Wes

From what i see in game, all those characters are very underplayed. On public servers at least. But i see Warly and Walter at least sometimes, Wurt and Winona are the rarest. Which means, they all have problems that need fixing.
And Wes is not a character =) He's just a "hard mode" of sorts, and with all those updates to other characters - a boring one. I really am looking forward to see his skill tree, but i hope it will be made last.
Unless they're planning to make him interesting

[Cheggf]

Just now, Mortalbane said:

I can't agree with you here

Why would you need to be Wendy if you aren't currently fighting a group of enemies? Why would you need to be Wickerbottom if you already have 30 stacks of twigs, 30 stacks of grass, 50 bundles full of every perishable you could want, and tentacle traps set up everywhere you want them? The main benefit of those characters is gone, being them isn't helping you.

1 minute ago, Mortalbane said:

From what i see in game, all those characters are very underplayed. On public servers at least. But i see Warly and Walter at least sometimes, Wurt and Winona are the rarest. Which means, they all have problems that need fixing.

No it doesn't. It means they're harder, and people gravitate towards easier characters.

2 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

And Wes is not a character =)

The only thing that needs fixing is your way of thinking.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, NekoSoulx said:

i dont like the ideas of making generators and catapuls weaker

The main idea was just to reduce their number. I just don't like visually to see a ring of catapults. I'd prefer fewer buildings around generators, but with stronger effect for each, having a net neutral.

1 hour ago, NekoSoulx said:

i think Nona skill tree should be about 4 paths to choose or combine

Haven't seen your post, sadly. Well yeah, with a builder/engineer the possibilities are endless, but she can't have it all, while Wolfgang has only damage damage damage and no alternatives =)

[Cuernito.]

I thought we were going to talk about Nona's ideas for a skill tree...

[Mortalbane]

Just now, Cheggf said:

The only thing that needs fixing is your way of thinking.

Sure, mate. I'll go fix my way of thinking right away, you've really opened my eyes here

[Cuernito.]

well wolfy is not the same as winona, other characteres like woodie have 3 alternatives to master, idk why winona cant be the same

wolfy only true thing is damage while winona has more things to do.

and i think she should have these 4 alternatives to combine, all characteres skill trees are like that, you can choose bernie's perks or magic fire perks or combine some of those.

9 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

The main idea was just to reduce their number. I just don't like visually to see a ring of catapults. I'd prefer fewer buildings around generators, but with stronger effect for each, having a net neutral.

So you are giving an idea based on what you dont like visually? wow, please dont do that, she is not about something visual, catapults are really strong and perfect right now that you can kill bee queen on day 5 or 6 with them without much problem, they dont really need to be stronger or weaker. c:

31 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Haven't seen your post, sadly. Well yeah, with a builder/engineer the possibilities are endless, but she can't have it all, while Wolfgang has only damage damage damage and no alternatives =)

 

[Mortalbane]

48 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

So you are giving an idea based on what you dont like visually? wow, please dont do that

Another guy trying to teach me how to think? Wow, please don't do that

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Why would you need to be Wendy if you aren't currently fighting a group of enemies? Why would you need to be Wickerbottom if you already have 30 stacks of twigs, 30 stacks of grass, 50 bundles full of every perishable you could want, and tentacle traps set up everywhere you want them? The main benefit of those characters is gone, being them isn't helping you

you might not want to swap every time you want to do something and you might at least use the character's perks from time to time, winona doesn't have any perks other than catapults though so you aren't losing fun nor efficiency by not playing as her after making catapults, similarly in comparison to warly, since most people only eat crock pot stuff anyway and usually have a bundle with it so portable crock pot is pointless 

[Cuernito.]

37 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Another guy trying to teach me how to think? Wow, please don't do that

i asked for a favor thats why i wrote please, no need to be so defensive my friend, i just want a good winona skill tree as a Nona main, thats all.

21 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you might not want to swap every time you want to do something and you might at least use the character's perks from time to time, winona doesn't have any perks other than catapults though so you aren't losing fun nor efficiency by not playing as her after making catapults, similarly in comparison to warly, since most people only eat crock pot stuff anyway and usually have a bundle with it so portable crock pot is pointless 

Winona has some good perks aside from catapults, she has the crafting speed that trust me when i said you can really tell the difference with a character with normal speed. the extra hit on the dark that is not that good but its something and of course the perk to see the real names of wagstaff tools during moondstorms, so she is not in blank at all.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

crafting speed

doesn't make the game fun in any way other than making it require spending less time on a boring part

6 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

the extra hit on the dark

you should ideally never use it unless you're doing caves with a torch/light berries

7 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

the real names of wagstaff tools during moondstorms

just remember them

[Cuernito.]

31 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you might not want to swap every time you want to do something and you might at least use the character's perks from time to time, winona doesn't have any perks other than catapults though so you aren't losing fun nor efficiency by not playing as her after making catapults, similarly in comparison to warly, since most people only eat crock pot stuff anyway and usually have a bundle with it so portable crock pot is pointless 

you wrote about not losing efficiency or fun, but in reality and objectively you do lose efficiency and personally i lose fun when not having the extra speed.

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

just remember them

this can be applied to all in this game, you want to kill bee queen easily with other character that is not wendy just rememeber the patterns of attacks and remember to bring lot of health items and armor. see things are not that simple my friend. 

[grm9]

Just now, NekoSoulx said:

you wrote about not losing efficiency or fun, but in reality and objectively you do lose efficiency

amount of time spent not crafting doesn't compensate the amount of time spent swapping or doing stuff without other characters' perks

2 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

personally i lose fun when not having the extra speed

not having a work multiplier is much worse unless you do all work by using bearger/reanimated skeleton

[Cuernito.]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

not having a work multiplier is much worse unless you do all work by using bearger/reanimated skeleton

with this logic all character can be switch for any reason that let them be inferior to other characteres stuff, like i want to kill a boss why using wortox for that fight when wolfgang is better for that moment. Im not a fan of the celestial portal, i like to stay with a character till the end with all the good and bad stuff, thats why its pointless to disscus this, all character can be switch with the existence of the portal and thats why i always ask for a nerf for that thing, but now im just gonna wait in the shadows till the nerf to the portal so i can see all the cries about not having switch character anymore cause klei get ride of that silly mechanic.

[sudoku]

I feel like her in game sprite could use a touch up.. It just looks off compared to her portrayal in trailers and skin art.

Like maybe her hair curls need to be more emphasized cause it just looks like she has high cheekbones instead.

I'd also adjust her chin so that it doesn't jut out as much

Idk but her ingame sprite just falls flat for me and thats one reason i never play her

 

 

[grm9]

21 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

so i can see all the cries about not having switch character anymore cause klei get ride of that silly mechanic

so you want to ruin other people's fun for no reason?

23 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

with this logic all character can be switch for any reason

problem is that you might want to play as characters that aren't warly and winona for more than 10 total days during the entire late game

[Mortalbane]

36 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

i asked for a favor thats why i wrote please, no need to be so defensive my friend, i just want a good winona skill tree as a Nona main, thats all.

This is not defense, my friend, this is a counterattack.
Feel free to disagree, but don't try to tell others how to think and what to do, unless you have an authority. Oh, i'm asking you a favor, so i write please.
If you think i'm defensive or offended, remember that it is only your interpretation of what you read. Try reading it with a different intonation, my friend.
I want to see a good character skill trees too, but i also often have a different view on the characters, and i want to express that. Even if i know that Klei will not rework anything major.

 

Well, enough about us, i'd like to see Winona mains sharing what they enjoy and what they would like to see changed

[Cuernito.]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

so you want to ruin other people's fun for no reason?

do you want to ruin my fun just cause you want something different from what i want? and its not for no reason, my biggest reason is the way some people use the portal to say some survivors are pick and switch later characteres. i dont do things in  random way my friend, think that everyone has a good reason for their opinions.

 

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

problem is that you might want to play as characters that aren't warly and winona for more than 10 total days during the entire late game

theres is a good amount of survivors that i dont enjoy playing with and none of those are winona or warly, i mean my longest worlds has been with warly and winona so i dont really get why you assume i or other people dont enjoy playing as winona or warly, Thats sounds like you are really biased to me.

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

Well, enough about us, i'd like to see Winona mains sharing what they enjoy and what they would like to see changed

well im a winona main and I think making catapults and generatos weaker is wrong, but other than that all sounds great to me. And if you want to have more fun using winona i recommend you to think out of the box, i mean winona can be really funny to use even early game if you try her, i always rush some bosses as her in public games, and she is good at sailing too. You can  even kill bee queen really easy with her, my best record is day 5 with an axe and using my personal special set up of catapults that i named Nona's heart <3. Only 12 catapults and 3 generators, but maybe you can break that record or use less catapults to kill a good boss idk. anyway great ideas, my fav was the ability to chop/mine/hammer faster while above 50% hunger. 

[grm9]

1 minute ago, NekoSoulx said:

do you want to ruin my fun just cause you want something different from what i want?

you don't need the portal to become more time consuming to use for everyone to not use it as often, just only swap every X days or don't swap or install a mod that makes it more time consuming, why force everyone to do that?

13 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

my biggest reason is the way some people use the portal to say some survivors are pick and switch later characteres

how do they hurt you that way?

13 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

theres is a good amount of survivors that i dont enjoy playing with and none of those are winona or warly, i mean my longest worlds has been with warly and winona so i dont really get why you assume i or other people dont enjoy playing as winona or warly, Thats sounds like you are really biased to me

most people say that they're swap characters and don't play as them much, at least winona, since she has no fun perks

[Cuernito.]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you don't need the portal to become more time consuming to use for everyone to not use it as often, just only swap every X days or don't swap or install a mod that makes it more time consuming, why force everyone to do that?

again this logic can be applied to all mechanics in this or others game, at the end you and me are only giving opinions and suggestions is klei that has the last word my friend.

 

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how do they hurt you that way?

i dont like lies that some people repeat and think that is true just cause they are really noisy about it.

 

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

most people say that they're swap characters and don't play as them much, at least winona, since she has no fun perks

who is most people? i mean people in this forum are not the majority of players of DST. The majority of players dont really bother to come into this forum and express their ideas, maybe this forum is full of veterans of DST but at the end of the day the vast mojority is out there playing the game, they dont usually care about this stuff. 

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

again this logic can be applied to all mechanics in this or others game, at the end you and me are only giving opinions and suggestions is klei that has the last word my friend.

how is what you said relevant?

2 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

i dont like lies that some people repeat and think that is true just cause they are really noisy about it

they're true though

2 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

who is most people?

anytime someone brings up swap characters they mention warly and winona 

[Cuernito.]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

6 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

again this logic can be applied to all mechanics in this or others game, at the end you and me are only giving opinions and suggestions is klei that has the last word my friend.

how is what you said relevant?

6 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

i dont like lies that some people repeat and think that is true just cause they are really noisy about it

they're true though

6 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

who is most people?

anytime someone brings up swap characters they mention warly and winona 

oh i get it now you are out of arguments and you just wanna fight XD, no thanks im outta here bra, and remember that most people are not the influencers of this game, just cause a famous person say it, doesnt mean its true. Sayonara. 

Winona supremacy power is raising... in my heart <3