Compared to trampling, how about the BOSS actively attacking obstacles in its path?

[Shining Galaxy]

It seems unreasonable that the BOSS can easily destroy a Thulecite Wall but was once helpless against the lureplant. Setting aside the lureplant for now, walls are supposed to serve as a defense or obstacle against creatures. However, in DST, they are akin to the Maginot Line, which failed to achieve its intended purpose. Wouldn't it be better if the BOSS couldn't simply trample over walls but instead had to stop and attack them, the same way it does with the lureplant and Spider Den?

[fpx007]

Yes, I believe this is an action that Klei done without thorought consideration.

First, the lureplant cheese can be solved with many more better ways. For example, better pathfinding algorithm, better aggro system(boss attack creatures if they are in the way), or even completely overhaul the whole boss fight. All of these can enhance the depth of game, thus players want to research and thus new strageties (even those that are considered as cheese). This is better good for a game community. 

However, devs think it takes too much work to design a whole new system and instead choose the one with least effort. OK, the cheese is removed, but players get what? They are still facing the already familiar boss, they already know everything, and there is nothing new for them to study. 

Besides, regardless of the complaints, can this nerf actually solve the isuue? I guess not! There is plenty of objects/creatures to block boss pathing. Lureplants get nerfed, we have spider dens; OK, spider dens also get nerfed, but we also have plenty of other creatures for blocking, e.g. beefalos, rock lobsters, etc. So this isuue can never be sloved, unless devs deny the whole hitbox mechainc they have developed since vanilla DS. Remember, if players want to cheese, they have plenty of ways to cheese, and no one can stop. Players chose lureplants just because they were the most convenient; If they must, they can also choose other ways to cheese.

It is OK for devs to remove cheese, but devs shoul also be aware of 2 facts.

Cheeses and glitches can never be completely avoided. Devs should accept them as part of the game. Sometimes they are even beneficial to the game. For example, people may want to study the internal mechanics about the cheese.

Spoiler

For example, therecis a cheese that ice flingo throws iceballs incorrectly when on a stationary boat with opened sails. I saw a video studying the relationship between opened sails and iceball offsets.

The other facts is devs should do additions instead of substractions. Adding new stuff to game can greatly enhance players’ enthusiasm, as their curiosity drives them learning and even researching the new stuff. Even for those that are completely indifferent to new contents, they can ignore new them and still enjoy the game how they enjoyed. Nerfing or removing existing contents/mechanism provides no help to people who want to experience new stuffs, but harms the game experience of people who want to play in the old ways.

Lastly, a simple suggetion. Klei can add legacy patches to “betas”. Thus for those who can’t tolerate new changes, they can still enjoy the game in the old way. This requires minimum extra work, and also helps when players want to play outdated mods that are incompatiable with latest patch. Many sandbox games are using this feature, including singleplayer DS, so just don’t hesitate.

[Cassielu]

The obvious fact is that it takes a lot of work and takes a long time. But what has been made - new wayfinding, collision and aggro mechanics - is something that most of the players in the community will not know and relate to. For them this will be a simple "omg why are you taking my cheese" and long content drought. They're not gonna be happy for this.

 

Also they actually try it before, most of mobs did pretty much the same thing to walls. that's why we learned to do it with fossils and statues.

Edited March 23 by Cassielu

[Fufuji]

Klei would have fixed this 7 years ago after the introduction of AFW, if they had the ability to fix this.

Players don't have the duty to acknowledge how hard it is to rework pathfinding AI or how to tweak combat AI to make mobs don't get stuck. This is Klei's duty, their responsibility to make their (not mine or yours) game better.

Edited March 23 by Fufuji

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Fufuji said:

Klei would have fixed this 7 years ago after the introduction of AFW, if they had the ability to fix this.

Players don't have the duty to acknowledge how hard it is to rework pathfinding AI or how to tweak combat AI to make mobs don't get stuck. This is Klei's duty, their responsibility to make their (not mine or yours) game better

no, this was 4 lines of code

Edited March 23 by grm9

[Shining Galaxy]

Klei believes that they can simply prevent players from using lureplant cheese by trampling, but in fact, we can also use Fossil Fragments to block Beefalo (moving them with the Beefalo Bell is not much more difficult than moving lureplants), and continue to block the BOSS with Beefalo if the BOSS remains so friendly to blocking creatures. Of course, I'm not saying that Klei should ban all cheese, I'm just saying that if they don't understand what they are doing, they will never achieve the desired effect.

[Captain_Rage]

On 3/23/2024 at 2:35 AM, Shining Galaxy said:

Setting aside the lureplant for now, walls are supposed to serve as a defense or obstacle against creatures. However, in DST, they are akin to the Maginot Line, which failed to achieve its intended purpose.

Walls stop the majority of creatures. Frogs cannot get through, neither can Pigs, Bunnymen nor most other mobs. Your statement is very strange (unless you mean that  the walls in the game should stop the advance of Nazi troops).

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, Captain_Rage said:

Walls stop the majority of creatures. Frogs cannot get through, neither can Pigs, Bunnymen nor most other mobs. Your statement is very strange (unless you mean that  the walls in the game should stop the advance of Nazi troops).

wtf?

[Captain_Rage]

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

wtf?

Read the original post.

[Well-met]

then people will find ways to heal or protect the lureplant.

the auto stomping is a far better fix

[fpx007]

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

then people will find ways to heal or protect the lureplant.

Then what is the point? Can’t players already heal themselves? Lureplants can’t deal damage on its own. (waiting eyeplants takes really long time yet their damage is still low) Healing players is usually far more cheaper than healing lureplant. (many bosses deal extra damage to NPCs, and lureplants can’t equip armor) And while healing lureplant, players can’t do any other thing, so they are unable to damage boss and become vulrnable to attack. 

As for “protecting” them, please notice that it is lureplants protecting players rather than the opposite! It is a lureplant path blocking than a lureplant farm (for things like leafy meat). So the point protecting them doesn’t even stand.

Last, you should recognize that many players are for trampling lureplants because they think it makes the fight too easy. So please answer me, if players are forced to “find ways to heal or protect” them, is that still an easy fight? This requirement alone already makes the fight much more difficult and inefficient, and perhaps even more than the “legit” ways. Perhaps you may argue that there may be still a few cases to be useful. But, firstly they are nolonger uinversal methods, their utility becomes much more restricted. And if players do find a good case to use them (after the proposed aggro change), players should be rewarded for their curiosity and research. That is the ESSENCE of an open sandbox game.

Edited March 26 by fpx007
typos

[SSneaky]

On 3/23/2024 at 4:27 AM, grm9 said:

no, this was 4 lines of code

 

Your king

[Shining Galaxy]

12 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Walls stop the majority of creatures. Frogs cannot get through, neither can Pigs, Bunnymen nor most other mobs.

Oh, goodness, just imagine. Walls are almost the worst obstacle in DST. For creatures that actively attack walls, like hounds and spiders, walls will be destroyed quickly. For bosses that trample buildings, walls are simply ineffective, whether it's a Thulecite Wall or a Dreadstone Wall. Walls can only hinder creatures that are foolish enough not to actively attack walls and weak enough to not trample them. For creatures like hounds, we have end tables, figures, fossil fragments and wooden tables, which perform better than walls. The only significance of walls is that they can maintain their collision volume outside the loading range. All walls only differ in their flammability and health points, and these differences are insignificant. Honestly, I really don't know what purpose walls serve beyond Stone Wall, other than decoration.

[Yuuko]

13 hours ago, Shining Galaxy said:

Oh, goodness, just imagine. Walls are almost the worst obstacle in DST. For creatures that actively attack walls, like hounds and spiders, walls will be destroyed quickly. For bosses that trample buildings, walls are simply ineffective, whether it's a Thulecite Wall or a Dreadstone Wall. Walls can only hinder creatures that are foolish enough not to actively attack walls and weak enough to not trample them. For creatures like hounds, we have end tables, figures, fossil fragments and wooden tables, which perform better than walls. The only significance of walls is that they can maintain their collision volume outside the loading range. All walls only differ in their flammability and health points, and these differences are insignificant. Honestly, I really don't know what purpose walls serve beyond Stone Wall, other than decoration.

Walls are essential, idk what you're talking about.  Unlike end tables and statues, mobs will path around walls.  This is vital for things like Lavae who won't de-aggro the player to attack the walls, Bqueen who will fly over walls while her grumbles path around, or varg spawned hounds / other mobs that prioritize eating over fighting.  I have a Willow Varg farm setup that uses walls to channel the spawns of several Vargs into a perfect channel for a lunar flame cast to clear entirely.  Combust + flame cast, its such an elegant farm.  Easier to run than a catapult one now that we can't aggro catapults on chester (another bad change lol.)  Also RIP the old trapping Mosslings in walls.  They wouldn't aggro it, but it would stop their spin attack in place so you could trigger them to start rain.

This is why we need to quit being so quick to judge things, and try to "fix them."  Fix being in quotes b/c DST has a method to its madness.  Ppl might disagree about what they *think* a thing should do, but if you strip away those judgements and simply look at our tools and their properties the potential becomes enormous. 

Edited March 26 by Yuuko

[Antynomity]

14 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Read the original post.

kek