Character Synergy poll

[Yuuko]

Simply put, the questions.

Feel free to leave any comments.

[Guille6785]

the word synergy at least to me implies a mutual benefit that is either exclusive to that specific combination of characters or at the very least noticeably exacerbated by it, IMO there are no real character synergies in DST (stuff like wicker charging old WX was sort of close but also not really because it only benefited the wx player)

[oog]

I consider character synergy a unique benefit you get from using two characters at the same time versus “you can make this item and then swap to another character to get that exact same benefit”. Winona’s catapults can be used by anyone, but they don’t function any differently- thus being able to make catapults isn’t really a synergy she has. Being able to easily make a hound farm for gems and the like with catapults would give her a synergy with Wilson, though, because he can transmute the gems into more valuable ones.

[goatt]

The second question is confusing.

 

If you rephrase it as "is wicker's library being usable by maxwell a character synergy".

Your original description is associated with a strong opnion which focuses on "is switching character a synergy" rather than "is wickerbottom-maxwell" a synergy.

 

Is switching character a synergy? No.

Is wicker-max a synergy? Yes.

[GenomeSquirrel]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

the word synergy at least to me implies a mutual benefit that is either exclusive to that specific combination of characters or at the very least noticeably exacerbated by it, IMO there are no real character synergies in DST (stuff like wicker charging old WX was sort of close but also not really because it only benefited the wx player)

Two characters acting together without sabotaging each other can be considered a synergy, the ERGY part of the word ties closer to ergonomics, as in working, rather than cyclical or enhanced benefits, although synergy would want to be refined to produce that type of benefit, so perhaps the distinction is irrelevant.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

The second question is confusing.

 

If you rephrase it as "is wicker's library being usable by maxwell a character synergy".

Your original description is associated with a strong opnion which focuses on "is switching character a synergy" rather than "is wickerbottom-maxwell" a synergy.

 

Is switching character a synergy? No.

Is wicker-max a synergy? Yes.

My wording is deliberate for exactly the reasons you mention.

[Cheggf]

I'm voting no for both of these. I don't think the WX thing is an example of character synergy for 2 reasons: "I'm not allowed to use my perk in any meaningful way without you doing this for me" is more of a WX perk that's locked behind Wickerbottom for no reason instead of actual character synergy, and all the time that's wasted from both players doing everything required to activate his perk is not worth his perk so it's a trap that is overall a net negative.

[Uedo]

I think they both are really, one is certainly fairer than the other though - arguably, by a large margin.

[Swiyss]

I mean.. it is not exactly a synergy, but it is fair, balanced and ok.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

I mean.. it is not exactly a synergy, but it is fair, balanced and ok.

This isn't a post about fair or balanced.  It is about whether this is an example of synergy - more specifically whether "Most people would agree" that these two situations are similar in that regard.

[Swiyss]

"Oh, but her entire kit is used by another character, so it is not fair". Try telling me why it is not fair without sounding like you're just jealous.

I played a lot of wormwood a time, and I think that when you craft a bramble husk, the recipe should be unlocked after you change character. This would also be great for sisturn, wx78 circuits and etc..

Just now, Yuuko said:

This isn't a post about fair or balanced.  It is about whether this is an example of synergy - more specifically whether "Most people would agree" that these two situations are similar in that regard.

No, it is not a synergy, no matter what people say.

In the dictionary, it is not a considered a synergy. No matter how the votes turned out. It is described as so in regards of the game's history of synergies.

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

"Oh, but her entire kit is used by another character, so it is not fair". Try telling me why it is not fair without sounding like you're just jealous.

I played a lot of wormwood a time, and I think that when you craft a bramble husk, the recipe should be unlocked after you change character. This would also be great for sisturn, wx78 circuits and etc..

This isn't a post about what is fair or balanced.

2 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

No, it is not a synergy, no matter what people say.

Thank you.

[Swiyss]

Do you think it is fair? Or do I have to create another topic with a different poll asking if it is fair and then discuss it there?

You sound like you're trying to be correct in terms instead of creating a balanced end product idea.

Listen I don't wanna get off topic but i will say this.

They won't change this in game. Maxwell will forever be able to use her books. She will have nothing to her kit besides the downsides she has + when they release a skill tree. All because Maxwell exists. He is a better character, it is fair since he was once the king of the constant and that's not gonna change.

Maxwell supremacy.

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Do you think it is fair? Or do I have to create another topic with a different poll asking if it is fair and then discuss it there?

You sound like you're trying extremely hard to be right instead of creating a balanced end product idea.

I'm isolating one thing here.  You said that these were both examples of character synergy, more than that you said

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Most people would agree, me included.

I didn't know what "most people thought," so I made a poll about it.  The trend is telling, and there are good responses showing why they think this way.

Its nothing specific against you - except that it was checking your statement.

I did the same thing here, checking my own assumptions about a global armor nerf.

[Swiyss]

I don't think you know what you yourself wants even.

Yes it is not a synergy by term. But it is a feature that one character has, that another one can use. Are we abolishing sisturns used by other players or everyone in the map also feeling wickerbottom's books changes because of this argument?

You yourself said it wasn't fair or balanced. What do you have to say about this?

I bet I can't count how many "synergies" (for a lack of term) we have in this game. So at what point does it becomes unfair?

I think that Maxwell using her books is totally fine as it is. What are we hurting with this feature? Wickerbottom mains fragile ego? Or game balancing. Heck, you can't even change character unless you either go to the moon island or wait for the celestial orb to drop. And even so you still have to craft her books regardless. You will still go through the whole process.

What better thing for a Maxwell player than to feel like you lead the constant? As he should and as many players have been asking for ages; something for him to be relevant.

It is lore friendly, it is a fun gameplay, and it removes the needs for having to play with another person to enjoy these features, which is amazing.

Look, at first I thought that we should have each character have its own unique set of skills and perks. But as more time goes on, and the more I play the game, the more I realise that this should not be the case. I don't like having to switch to wickerbottom constantlt because my books break.

For me, every character should have a downside to deal with, but every upside should not be 100% exclusive to them unless it makes sense in a lore/personality situation.

Also, you have to realise that these polls are extremely biased. Those are only somewhat accurate if atleast 1% of the current amount of players all voted. For instance I said that people would agree because all my circle of friends said it was fair, without even debating with anyone, just asking. Also, I am not basing my ideas on just a group of friends, but for our gameplay, that is relevant. And the idea that this feature only is not fair comes from a side of egotistic behaviour. Same as fixing void walking or other "unintended features" that are left untouched by the developers for years. Doing it so would only ruin the experience for some people while making the other side feel like things are fair now.

Even tho I think that every upside should be shared and the upsides being the main factor of choice when it comes to character selection (besides sheer character personality) I still believe it wouldn't make the survivors bland or perkless, but only incentivise the fact that everyone could get the same opportunity when playing the game. 

I for once thought that people who rode beefalos were cheating the game for how dumb and easy they buff you. But I came to realise that they're having fun and I was just being a jerk. Same as the "Maxwell using her books" example. 

Even though I know they would never do something like I described as being healthy for the game (since it is too radical); I wouldn't also try to make an existing "synergy" feature be patched only because I felt like it was unfair.

The reality is that this can only be described as jealousy in my book unless someone convinces me otherwise.

[zhangsheng]

32 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I don't think you know what you yourself wants even.

Yes it is not a synergy by term. But it is a feature that one character has, that another one can use. Are we abolishing sisturns used by other players or everyone in the map also feeling wickerbottom's books changes because of this argument?

You yourself said it wasn't fair or balanced. What do you have to say about this?

I bet I can't count how many "synergies" (for a lack of term) we have in this game. So at what point does it becomes unfair?

I think that Maxwell using her books is totally fine as it is. What are we hurting with this feature? Wickerbottom mains fragile ego? Or game balancing. Heck, you can't even change character unless you either go to the moon island or wait for the celestial orb to drop. And even so you still have to craft her books regardless. You will still go through the whole process.

What better thing for a Maxwell player than to feel like you lead the constant? As he should and as many players have been asking for ages; something for him to be relevant.

It is lore friendly, it is a fun gameplay, and it removes the needs for having to play with another person to enjoy these features, which is amazing.

Look, at first I thought that we should have each character have its own unique set of skills and perks. But as more time goes on, and the more I play the game, the more I realise that this should not be the case. I don't like having to switch to wickerbottom constantlt because my books break.

For me, every character should have a downside to deal with, but every upside should not be 100% exclusive to them unless it makes sense in a lore/personality situation.

What you mean is that we should delete the character Wickerbottom and transfer our abilities to Maxwell. Isn't that more convenient.

Lores should serve for gameplay, not for gameplay as a lore service.

I only know that Maxwell is already strong enough and should not take away the abilities that originally belonged solely to Wickerbottom. As for the lore, I don't know or care. Klei has given you the ability to switch people and experience more characters.

But you expect to concentrate all your abilities on one person, so why do we have to play other characters.

[Swiyss]

As I said before, this poll have to take in consideration that the word synergy means 2 character benefiting from current mutual interests that would otherwise not be achievable without both of them. In that case, old wicker wasn't getting anything from it, so it isn't a synergy, also current Wickerbottom + Maxwell is also not a synergy. It is described as so simply because of the lack of a proper term.

You used this poll to prove me I'm wrong and fact check me and then cut the conversation when I wanted to further discuss the REAL problem here (not just a regulation of a term so you can say you're right, I myself said you're right, you don't need that assurance I promise you).

2 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

What you mean is that we should delete the character Wickerbottom and transfer our abilities to Maxwell. Isn't that more convenient.

Lores should serve for gameplay, not for gameplay as a lore service.

I only know that Maxwell is already strong enough and should not take away the abilities that originally belonged solely to Wickerbottom. As for the lore, I don't know or care. Klei has given you the ability to switch people and experience more characters.

But you expect to concentrate all your abilities on one person, so why do we have to play other characters.

If that is a current problem to you, than you have to thank the developers at Klei for adding skill trees. Now you can make a suggestion so that any added feature be exclusive to her only. Same as winona or warly. Both being just swap-out characters.

Actually you have to thank that not everyone can read her books, THAT would be detrimental (like winona and warly case).

Are we what now, removing wurts ability to read her books too? "Oh but that is not gameplay efficient", it has to be fun. Not everything needs to be about balance.

Like Willow skill tree, that comes from a video from YT that Klei took blind inspiration instead of listening to the actual Willow players that casually enjoyed her for who she is. Now we have a case where her kit is "fun" while disrupting gameplay progress balance. My opinion about it is to NOT remove it entirely, but to balance around game situation. Adding a cd was their worst decision.

Furthermore, are we sacrificing fun from playing wicker for fun while playing maxwell?

In that case than just simply add uniqueness to her. The same fix warly (he's already very unique somewhat) and winona need to bump up their gameplay.

As for Willow here, it is more enjoyable to spam abilities just like Maxwell, so do it. As long as this feature is not unlocked day 1 after I killed the celestial champion.

Wigfrid dash is only obtainable when almost getting into late-game. While Willow (that skillset was added alongside Wigfrid's) can use combustion + lunar fire at day one to easily farm embers. Not even talking about how her blue fire looks more like endothermic fire from reign of giants instead of the ACTUAL white blue-ISH characteristics of gestalts, lunar energy and materials.

18 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

Lores should serve for gameplay, not for gameplay as a lore service.

If you start to allign your views with the developers you would soon realize that it is better to accept their way rather than constantly fight it.

They showed no remorse for wicker when making Maxwell use it, so Be It. Same as when they decided that Warly and Winona features should be used by other characters.

I don't even know what's unique and what's shared anymore. Who is a support character and who is a do-all character. 

There should be more synergies in the game, a case where both parties should benefit from it. Reality is that, if you want Warly's perks but don't want to play warly, then you'll just swap characters to craft his buffs.

Honestly, I think Klei KNOWS what they're doing. They know for a fact that warly buffs, winona catapults and repair kits and wickerbottom book ARE maybe overpowered. So to make them a little bit less on the balance scale, they allow people to use these features, sacrificing the character's identity due to a design feature. Honestly I wouldn't want to play Max without wickerbottoms books honestly. It sure is still Maxwell, but nerfed. They found a perfect way to balance this since Maxwell should actually be more relevant in lore.

I know everytime I play Wickerbottom, there is this thing in my head telling me that playing my character is useless since maxwell can also do it but better. I know how that feels and I know that it sucks, but until Klei doesn't explicitly say that they're making these character more Fun and Relevant then I will keep my views.

Better to talk about this before their skillset rather then later I guess.

[zhangsheng]

31 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

If that is a current problem to you, than you have to thank the developers at Klei for adding skill trees. Now you can make a suggestion so that any added feature be exclusive to her only. Same as winona or warly. Both being just swap-out characters.

Actually you have to thank that not everyone can read her books, THAT would be detrimental (like winona and warly case).

Are we what now, removing wurts ability to read her books too? "Oh but that is not gameplay efficient", it has to be fun. Not everything needs to be about balance.

Like Willow skill tree, that comes from a video from YT that Klei took blind inspiration instead of listening to the actual Willow players that casually enjoyed her for who she is. Now we have a case where her kit is "fun" while disrupting gameplay progress balance. My opinion about it is to NOT remove it entirely, but to balance around game situation. Adding a cd was their worst decision.

Furthermore, are we sacrificing fun from playing wicker for fun while playing maxwell?

In that case than just simply add uniqueness to her. The same fix warly (he's already very unique somewhat) and winona need to bump up their gameplay.

Yes, to put it bluntly, these are all issues with the game, whether it's Winona's generator being used by other characters at will or Willow's skill tree CD. As for Warly, there is no problem with his character design, as only he can use his items and make his exclusive dishes. As for who eats, it is not a problem.

However, Wickerbottom was completely plagiarized by Maxwell, and these books should have been exclusive to Wickerbottom, just like Wanda's watch can only be used by oneself. Winona is the same, her power station should only be used by herself. This should become a bonus for their own roles.

This is not only a problem we are discussing now, but also a problem that should be solved in the future, and your argument will only make all of this more extreme. As you mean, playing other characters has become a burden instead? Why do you still have to play such a role?

Concentrating all abilities on one person is boring and terrible. It was originally a mutually reinforcing cooperative relationship, how could it become like this.

[Swiyss]

Hope they'll take some things I said in consideration when making these characters skill trees.

2 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

Focusing all one's abilities on one person is boring and terrible. It was originally a mutually reinforcing cooperative relationship, how could it become like this

I agree 100% with this as long as all other character can have THEIR way of getting a movespeed bonus besides the current items, like wormwood, wx78, wolfgang when normal and early woodie. Actually that was what I thought it would happen when they released the triplet skillsets. Unfortunately that was not the case, they just added a armor mixed with movespeed that costs killing CC twice to get.

If we're not adding combat, gathering, survival and exploration perks in all characters skill trees (since those are basic aspects of the game) then why bother even making them unique?

I kinda don't understand this side of their intention.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

For instance I said that people would agree because all my circle of friends said it was fair

This thread is not about fair, and fair is not what was said.  This thread is about "do most people think this is an example of synergy."

I think we got our answer to that.  Nothing in this thread says it is fair, or unfair for this to be a thing in the game.  It only asks the poll questions.

Stay on topic here.  If you wanna talk about what is fair you can go back to the other thread.

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

This thread is not about fair, and fair is not what was said.  This thread is about "do most people think this is an example of synergy."

I think we got our answer to that.  Nothing in this thread says it is fair, or unfair for this to be a thing in the game.  It only asks the poll questions.

But my beloved friend, are you trying to silence me in "general discussion"? It is rather strange to create a whole another topic only for 1 specific slight deviation of content being discussed.

King! You're right! You won! Congratulations! Now let me spew my ideas.

You yourself said "feel free to leave any comments".

[Yuuko]

11 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

But my beloved friend, are you trying to silence me in "general discussion"? It is rather strange to create a whole another topic only for 1 specific slight deviation of content being discussed.

King! You're right! You won! Congratulations! Now let me spew my ideas.

This thread was created so I could poll the forums opinions and see what the feelings are.  I can say what I think is synergy or not, but I can't say what other people think is synergy or not.  It wasn't to bait any response, or continue any argument.  Its not to say what is fair or unfair.

This answered my question.

If you want to talk about power balance, go back to the power balance thread and post all of this there, where it will be on topic.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Yuuko said:

This thread was created so I could poll the forums opinions and see what the feelings are.  I can say what I think is synergy or not, but I can't say what other people think is synergy or not.  It wasn't to bait any response, or continue any argument.  Its not to say what is fair or unfair.

This answered my question.

If you want to talk about power balance, go back to the power balance thread and post all of this there, where it will be on topic.

I think it is a synergy. Even if the term entail the opposite.

For the lack of terms, it is a synergy.

It is a "interaction". Maybe that sounds better.

And now (going slighty off-topic), I think this "interaction" is fair.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I think it is a synergy. Even if the term entail the opposite.

For the lack of terms, it is a synergy.

Thank you.

[Swiyss]

If we went as far as to block any further discussion slighty off-topic then almost 90% of topics here in the forums are out of topic.

If you (the author) don't want to participate in it I think that is fine, but to make me not say what I think and why it is not an unfair interaction it is to censor me in my book. But correct me if I'm wrong.

35 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

As you mean, playing other characters has become a burden instead? Why do you still have to play such a role?

Honestly, it hasn't become a "burden" per say, but more of a situation where I will never see myself playing a specific survivor because I know their perks and skills are very irrelevant to my gameplay (fundamentally and style-wise).

I won't sacrifice wx78 movespeed + 300 hp/night vision for ANY survivor in this game UNLESS I can get something similar/better.

That's why I want them to add combat abilities to wx78, so I can play my boy without having to sacrifice much.

Sure I can contantly use magi, or use moggles in the caves, but having these things as automatic is way better.

Also I won't play Maxwell because he doesn't have a skillset yet, and unless it is convincing I won't switch either. He will probably have 2 shadows sides, and currently there are 0 lunar enemies early game that are as relevant as nightmare creatures, so the extra 10% damage on them is already a reason for me to not pick shadow in most of my skillset plans.

In my vision, I think that a feature like willow's blue flame on day 1 is unbalanced because of combat. Combat only. Combat specific. Any skill tree that makes surviving, gathering, building, fighting (taking in consideration the game's progress (doing less dps than a dark sword is NOT an argument since her skill is AoE)) easier is a W. Sure they added that, but changing the sprites would make me never touch on this subject again in this forum. It felt uninspired and like a punch in the face of old willow players.

As I said before, I won't play Warly, Winona or Wickerbottom ever again in my life unless it is to swap them back to wendy, maxwell, wormwood, wx and woodie later. If the skill trees fix that and make then more fun and interesting on their own, then I would.

I changed my entire mindset about the game because I saw Klei making the game more Fun and less Uncompromising. For that I agree and will probably stay like this for a while.