Planar damage is great for the game and perfectly fine... Maybe.

[Swiyss]

I see a lot of people dislike planar damage. Well, I like it and I dont see a reason why it would be a bad implementation.

First of all. I think (I might be wrong) that planar damage was added so that dark swords deal less damage to planar mobs and planar weapons deal the same damage to both regular and planar creatures. That is made so it is hard to fight brightshade at first, but easier later.

In my experience, I think fighting any of the mutated lunar bosses without planar damage is very very hard and super enjoyable. It gives you a challenge, and if I could choose, I would make so it is obligated to fight them without planar damage first to see how hard they are, to then be able to try again but with planar weapons, to also see how those are great.

I don't care if x character is doing more damage than others, but I would care if winona did more melee damage then wolfgang for example so there's that I guess.

Planar damage is essentially armor penetration or true damage. And planar defense is true armour. So basically..

Planar damage vs planar defense = good.

Planar damage vs non planar defense = good.

Non planar damage vs planar defense = bad.

Non planar damage vs non planar defense = good.

So there are more "goods" than "bads" in here so in logic the feature is good. Good.

If you think otherwise please tell me why.

[Kwaik]

I don't dislike planar damage, but I do think it could've been done better. 

Instead of it essentially being an extra armor mechanism. I'd rather seen sense something like an expansion on elemental damage, or damage over time, or just a greater variety of weapons (ie slower weapons with more attack, faster with less etc) 

I'm not one whose going to whine about planar damage because I don't think it's bad. But I think it's basically a kind of lazy/pointless mechanism. 

 

Hell even if they just expanded on elemental vulnerabilities (shadow light fire ice lightning) and made certain enemies weaker/more resistant to certain ones, that would've made more sense. Especially when you could have the opportunity to make different characters have certain advantages towards particular elements 

 

The only justification I can see for planar existing is to have a mechanism to counter affordable armor being too effective late game. Which honestly if that's the point of it, then I don't see a better way to do this

[Swiyss]

3 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

I don't dislike planar damage, but I do think it could've been done better. 

Instead of it essentially being an extra armor mechanism. I'd rather seen sense something like an expansion on elemental damage, or damage over time, or just a greater variety of weapons (ie slower weapons with more attack, faster with less etc) 

I'm not one whose going to whine about planar damage because I don't think it's bad. But I think it's basically a kind of lazy/pointless mechanism. 

 

Hell even if they just expanded on elemental vulnerabilities (shadow light fire ice lightning) and made certain enemies weaker/more resistant to certain ones, that would've made more sense. Especially when you could have the opportunity to make different characters have certain advantages towards particular elements 

Omg that is amazing. They should definitely do that. A slower weapon with a higher damage or faster with lower damage sounds soo cool. Elemental damage too.

They could also add different mid-ranged slash attacks, like a use for the reaper in combat or damage overtime too.

[Mike23Ua]

Hear me out on this because it’s about to get a little weird..

When Klei first started the RoT updates, the very first update in that chain added some new and quite horrifying Undead Mobs known as the “Lunar Horrors” Klei has drastically cut down on this type of content- but the general premise is still there.

With this thought in mind: I believe Klei intended for us to fight Undead Zombie Enemies with special weapons intended to be more useful against them.

The way Lunar bosses reanimate back to life after the original version had been slain just screams they wanted to continue updates down this path..

And so I’ve come to accept Brightshade swords as sort of being these idk I guess you can say Holy Water blessed magic weapons, to slay the Undead.

Is that how it ACTUALLY works? Well uhh no… but, you do have a glowing Sword that looks heavenly, and your using it to fight undead zombies- So you be the judge on that Theroy.

[Frashaw27]

I think planar damage is a really good idea for allowing some separation of end game content without needing to go into bonkers crazy numbers like terraria. Planar allows the damage numbers to stay relatively balanced so that there isn't some type of arms race to constantly get a powercreepingly higher amount of damage. Like people say that planar kills weapon choice, but I feel that using raw damage would do the same thing. People aren't going to be using so much weaker weapons below 100 damage once a consistent 100 damage weapon does come out. We can already see this with the 50 damage bench mark. Part of the reason why we don't see most people going to kill raid bosses with spears is because they simply fall below that benchmark to see their usefulness once you get much more consistent and on massable ways to get 50+ damage weapons like dark swords and hambats. Ultimately, I stand by the idea that people hate on planar because they hate the base idea rather then how it actually works in game. Granted, that does mean there is still some flaws, primarily that you can't get a planar damage weapon prior to opening the rifts. I think people would be a lot more forgiving if they weren't kicked in the crotch with planar defense with no way around it besides killing the things in front of you. For the most part, most of the threats in DST are based around your preparations, whatever that be actual things or skills, to challenge the things in front of you, so there should be ways to prepare for planar defense before hand. You can already prepare for planar damage by getting the Dreadstone armor set, due to it having a minor amount of planar defense. I think an apt route to take for this would be to give the Thulecite Club a minor amount of planar damage (like 10 at most), with the explanation being the severe amount of concentrated fuel allows it to harness the smallest amount of planar damage, allowing for an item that allows you to prepare for planar defense on mobs while also buffing an item that most people look past. I do understand why planar is a controversial topic, but I do think that it was the smart play what klei did to maintain game balance while allowing for new equipment to arise, it just needs a few ways to get the stuff before hand so can actually prepare for it.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Planar damage vs planar defense = good.

Planar damage vs non planar defense = good.

Non planar damage vs planar defense = bad.

Non planar damage vs non planar defense = good.

So there are more "goods" than "bads" in here so in logic the feature is good. Good.

I break it down like this:

Normal weapon vs normal creature = normal fight.

Planar weapon vs normal creature = normal fight.

Planar weapon vs planar creature = normal fight.

Normal weapon vs planar creature = nerfed player.

So there are 3 regular interactions, and 1 bad interaction.  Equipping planar means nothing, only forgetting it does, in which case you are punished.

That's why the planar gear all got a lot of buffs after their first release.  Just having planar wasn't good because it didn't actually create any positive interactions.  So we got repair kits, synergy perks, extra stuff like darkness protection, and of course damage was pushed up - basically scaling up the planar gear to the point that even with out the planar advantage they would be OP - to give players a positive interaction with the new content.  All of the good things about the new content are ironically in spite of planar mechanics, not because of them.

----------------------------------------------

rant

Spoiler

DS/T has always been a flat progression game, which is its own niche.  Not every game needs player levels, or to NG+ the world.  Some games can just have a world be, and let player skill be the predominant factor.  If a player knows where a resource is, and how to get it - then the player can get it.  If they don't have the skill, then they get something else instead.  Learning and practicing to improve player skill creates a unique experience where even when you start a new world you never really start the game over - and there is little grind b/c you can move purposefully to take what you need.  The only grind is in the learning experience.

Planar seeks to add a progression to DS/T, kinda the main thing DS/T has successfully avoided through its entire life span by NOT locking OP weapons and gear behind bosses.  We had occasional things boss locked like Bone Armor and Enlightened Crown, but they weren't so drastically OP that we needed them.  Yeah, not anymore lol.  Planar wants to force us to trade out our old gear for the newer, more powerful gear that we can only obtain after going through a lengthy, grindy quest line b/c once you open rifts you are going to constantly face and endless deluge of planar enemies, and as I pointed out above - using non-planar vs planar is a bad interaction.

More then that it tries to ramp up the world in some NG+ style which I've only seen turn games into dead ends.  The precedence is now set that new content = stronger weapons and stronger bosses.  Specifically bosses that arbitrarily require the new stronger weapons.  This reduces player choice - we MUST use the new equipment or we're just going to get scaled on by the world.  Almost any time a pve game "increases difficulty" it really results in fewer viable options for play.

Rogue Legacy was a game I really enjoyed until the NG+ scaling completely ruined the game for me.  After the enemies scaled up a few times you basically could not actually fight them, so you had to take one of two classes.  One class could perfect block damage and the other could enter a cloud state and ignore units and attacks.  Basically you'd use one of these and just run passed everything to the bosses - who weren't power scaled, and were always the exact same bosses - and kill them.  All of the different classes and fun quirks, all of the different zones and enemies you used to have fun fighting - were all essentially removed from the game.  The game wasn't really "harder" either, it just changed to one extremely specific play style and you either used these few options or stopped playing.

Meanwhile I have over 3k hours in DST.  I've played different characters, and different styles - sometimes focusing on exploring, and low tech survival, sometimes focusing on pacifist play, other times rushing bosses - sometimes with OP characters sometimes with UP ones.  The replay is endless - and here is the real hitch - I can always restrict myself.  If I wanted to play Rogue Legacy pacifist I always could have picked one of those two classes and dodged every enemy, rushing the bosses and clearing the game - but once you scale up the game you restrict players to that one viable play style... and then what?

It creates a final solution and an end to a game that is based around having a multitude of options and no end...

/rant

----------------------------------------------

I do think planar could have been done better.  I think it really comes out of left field that suddenly we get an elemental type mechanic out of the blue.  tbh it seems more like a "gotcha!" mechanic then a difficulty increase.  Like you take a hit from a BS plant in your 90% armor and lose a massive chunk of your health, or possibly die (rip wanda) you're not feeling challenged, more like ripped off.  Why did this thing suddenly deal massive damage through my armor?  NOTHING in DST prepares you for this.  It just comes completely out of left field and says "surprise ur ded lol" - and then what?  You get planar gear and everything goes back to normal.  Nothing about planar makes these things "hard," it just versions your gear.

I said this when planar was first introduced - and I still stand by it - IF we MUST have this - it really should be added from the start of the game by giving us an elemental type system for weapons and armor.  We could run a simple earth => water => fire => earth loop, and even have a less effective basic type we can default to for general purpose if we need.  THEN when Planar comes out and effects us the same way having the wrong type armor would effect us, but no type works properly, we can naturally deduce that a new type has been introduced.  Lunar and shadow could even be their own types, so it could be like (Lunar<=>Shadow)>>(Earth>Water>Fire>Earth.)

Also the progression into planar equipment for the player should be slowed WAY down...  Right now you pop the rift and get flooded with mats pretty quick to craft all the BS gear you could want.  BS mats are basically the new hounds tooth - and all of the crafts are available right from the start.  As I charted above - once you are using planar equipment against a planar enemy you're basically back to normal, so any "progression" is done.  If we want players to feel a sense of progression here the gap between being presented with planar enemies and us acquiring planar gear needs to be widened and have more beneficial effects to having planar like maybe BS plants don't retaliate when you attack with planar so you don't have to play their vine minigame, etc.

[Antynomity]

35 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Hear me out on this because it’s about to get a little weird..

When Klei first started the RoT updates, the very first update in that chain added some new and quite horrifying Undead Mobs known as the “Lunar Horrors” Klei has drastically cut down on this type of content- but the general premise is still there.

With this thought in mind: I believe Klei intended for us to fight Undead Zombie Enemies with special weapons intended to be more useful against them.

The way Lunar bosses reanimate back to life after the original version had been slain just screams they wanted to continue updates down this path..

And so I’ve come to accept Brightshade swords as sort of being these idk I guess you can say Holy Water blessed magic weapons, to slay the Undead.

Is that how it ACTUALLY works? Well uhh no… but, you do have a glowing Sword that looks heavenly, and your using it to fight undead zombies- So you be the judge on that Theroy.

The reaper actually works for this theme but yeah the BS sword is out of place if that's what they had in mind or if most rift mobs will be undead variants.

IF most mobs will be 'undead' then it would have been so dope if the brightshade sword (or some future rift weapon) looked like a ZK knife.

As for planar, there are a lot of 'good' interactions, however I'm more concerned with the fact that a system such as this which for sure will stay in the game from now on and will be used for all late-game combat interactions, even a single 'bad' interaction you can have taints the entire system straight up and makes it overall worse to have in the game than not having it at all.

[Kwaik]

Yeah in hindsight of what I posted, I change my mind, planar damage is completely necessary for end game to not get crushed by late game inflation. If it wasn't for opposing enemies having planar damage, then it would make spammable early equipment too strong late game. 

Should we really see everyone running around with hambats and football helmets as fantastic late game? 

I think the whole planar damage thing got forced by the weigh Klei implemented armor. Like by having armor reduce a fixed percentage of damage, it makes most armor just way too good late game, making progression kind of meaningless (ie who is going to farm brightshades and tatters when stuff like football helmets or marble armor is just as good as stupid easy to mass farm) 

The only alternative I see to a planar system existing is either making end game armor meaningless, getting way too complicated with the math (ie starting to add crazy high damage guys and making end game armor like 97% and stuff), or revamping the entire armor system to something more traditional. 

 

So yeah is planar fun or sexy? Definitely not. But it's really a necessary component of progression. And I guess with certain characters like wigfrid having talents with planar resistance, it helps differentiate end game. 

I'm gonna give Klei credit here for figuring out the simplest work around for the in game mechanics 

[Yuuko]

34 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

Should we really see everyone running around with hambats and football helmets as fantastic late game? 

I think the whole planar damage thing got forced by the weigh Klei implemented armor. Like by having armor reduce a fixed percentage of damage, it makes most armor just way too good late game, making progression kind of meaningless (ie who is going to farm brightshades and tatters when stuff like football helmets or marble armor is just as good as stupid easy to mass farm) 

The only alternative I see to a planar system existing is either making end game armor meaningless, getting way too complicated with the math (ie starting to add crazy high damage guys and making end game armor like 97% and stuff), or revamping the entire armor system to something more traditional. 

For weapons - even without planar, just for repair kits and the extra damage we'd all switch to the new gear.  No reason to use a ham bat when you can have a BS sword even if planar damage were not a thing.  That's the biggest thing about planar that really kills me - just straight delete it and the new gear is STILL an upgrade.

For armor - fr just rip the bandaid off and nerf armor.  Percent damage reduction on the upper end like DS/T has gets out of control really easily anyway.  80 to 90, and 90 to 95 are big steps - more than I think most people realize.  No reason they couldn't have just done a combat re-balance where they fiddled with the numbers for weapons, armor, and possibly material availability to adjust the game for the better from the start through the end instead of just taping this on top.

If the game had problems because armor got too good, then fix it.  No reasons to tape some convoluted equipment versioning on top of it.

OR as with weapons, the new armor synergy also could have incentivized a more glass canon play style by giving access to higher damage numbers while wearing lower armor values.  To prevent stacking it could have required a matching armor equipped, and gave a bonus inversely proportionate to your defense value so you couldn't cheat it.

[flamboyant wolf]

I generally like planar, especially planar defense. 

[Echsrick]

remove it, just make it a weakness instead so your old weapons actualy are worth doin something...like using any dark weapon against moon deals douple damage while using any moon weapon against dark deals douple damage, while using the same element so moon on moon and dark on dark deals half damage while neutral weapons like your spear or hambat is neutral no matter who its used against

[Jakepeng99]

I like the idea of planar damage, i think it is almost genius.

 

But the way it is applied is not so good. (The way it is handled in skill trees with wolf gang as an example.)

[GenomeSquirrel]

It’s running in circles to stay in place, does a planar helmet sit on your head slot and differently than a helmet, does a spear swing any differently than a non planar spear. For getting a few new ways to make gear, you throw a dozen of other ways in the garbage. 
 

I guess the counter argument might be what else is there to do but run in circles, but time spent reskinning spears could have been spent designing a new something else to preoccupy our time.

 

But I’ll admit I consider this games combat to be its weakest leg.

[Swiyss]

11 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

I think people would be a lot more forgiving if they weren't kicked in the crotch with planar defense with no way around it besides killing the things in front of you.

But like.. this is amazing man, having to hit something 10 times to kill it for some time and then abruptly needing only 5 hits this time gives the player a sense of accomplishment. It is rewarding, satisfying and great for progression. 

I myself experienced that and I can safely say it is a good mechanic to take in consideration. Hard working to then see the money at the end of the day is super satisfying man, and it's even more satisfying getting that handful at the end of a month for ex.

If after killing dfly once, you kill him quicker next time, then that's a good addition to the game.

Currently that's not the case unfortunately.

[Uedo]

I think im fine with it, I'm sure it could have been done better but what couldn't? It serves its purpose

[Swiyss]

11 hours ago, Yuuko said:

NOTHING in DST prepares you for this.  It just comes completely out of left field and says "surprise ur ded lol

Isn't that the game's identity? Answer me if I'm wrong. But this is ds.

11 hours ago, Yuuko said:

I said this when planar was first introduced - and I still stand by it - IF we MUST have this - it really should be added from the start of the game by giving us an elemental type system for weapons and armor.  We could run a simple earth => water => fire => earth loop, and even have a less effective basic type we can default to for general purpose if we need.  THEN when Planar comes out and effects us the same way having the wrong type armor would effect us, but no type works properly, we can naturally deduce that a new type has been introduced.  Lunar and shadow could even be their own types, so it could be like (Lunar<=>Shadow)>>(Earth>Water>Fire>Earth.)

I love this, it's a great idea.

11 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Also the progression into planar equipment for the player should be slowed WAY down...  Right now you pop the rift and get flooded with mats pretty quick to craft all the BS gear you could want.  BS mats are basically the new hounds tooth - and all of the crafts are available right from the start.  As I charted above - once you are using planar equipment against a planar enemy you're basically back to normal, so any "progression" is done.  If we want players to feel a sense of progression here the gap between being presented with planar enemies and us acquiring planar gear needs to be widened and have more beneficial effects to having planar like maybe BS plants don't retaliate when you attack with planar so you don't have to play their vine minigame, etc

That's what I meant to say in my original post. Brightshade gear can be acquired before even fighting planar enemies, that removes progression. And that is because the updates were released one by one. It's time to fix that. I think they should lock crafts in the brightshade smithy behind getting the spark arc.

[Swiyss]

10 hours ago, Kwaik said:

So yeah is planar fun or sexy? Definitely not. But it's really a necessary component of progression

Yesss.

10 hours ago, Yuuko said:

For weapons - even without planar, just for repair kits and the extra damage we'd all switch to the new gear.  No reason to use a ham bat when you can have a BS sword even if planar damage were not a thing.  That's the biggest thing about planar that really kills me - just straight delete it and the new gear is STILL an upgrade.

For armor - fr just rip the bandaid off and nerf armor.  Percent damage reduction on the upper end like DS/T has gets out of control really easily anyway.  80 to 90, and 90 to 95 are big steps - more than I think most people realize.  No reason they couldn't have just done a combat re-balance where they fiddled with the numbers for weapons, armor, and possibly material availability to adjust the game for the better from the start through the end instead of just taping this on top.

If the game had problems because armor got too good, then fix it.  No reasons to tape some convoluted equipment versioning on top of it.

OR as with weapons, the new armor synergy also could have incentivized a more glass canon play style by giving access to higher damage numbers while wearing lower armor values.  To prevent stacking it could have required a matching armor equipped, and gave a bonus inversely proportionate to your defense value so you couldn't cheat it.

I think you're maybe misunderstanding how progression should work in dst.

Planar damage works because you should NOT use dark swords to kill planar enemies, but if you try you'll have a hard time. Thats good, it does what is intended to do.

58 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

It’s running in circles to stay in place, does a planar helmet sit on your head slot and differently than a helmet, does a spear swing any differently than a non planar spear. For getting a few new ways to make gear, you throw a dozen of other ways in the garbage. 
 

I guess the counter argument might be what else is there to do but run in circles, but time spent reskinning spears could have been spent designing a new something else to preoccupy our time.

 

But I’ll admit I consider this games combat to be its weakest leg.

I think that's due because we don't got the full picture yet. 

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

I think planar or a mechanic similar to planar is definitely necessary for Klei's current vision for DST endgame. However, I think its implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

My main gripe is how planar mechanics just spit in the face of character perks/diversity. Why does it not scale with damage multipliers?! That alone effectly removes Wolfgang's main perk and Wendy's main downside, not to mention how it interacts with Wanda, Willow, Woody, etc. It makes no sense for all these unique characters to suddenly converge into a single play style for endgame. If anything, characters should grow more diverse as you progress through the game. And since the original backlash for planar, the characters are getting skill trees to fix the scaling issue, as opposed to just actually fixing planar. So now Wolfgang has built in planar damage, but it's locked behind skills that players feel obligated to take in order to fix a flaw in the game's design, thereby reducing diversity in skill tree choice.

My other, lesser gripe is that planar is just too complicated for the average player. The scaling defense, the split between regular and planar damage, none of it feels readable, especially compared to early game combat stats. I came up with what I think would be a much simpler solution, or at least a baseline for such.

Spoiler

As opposed to planar damage, let's just make certain weapons have the "planar" attribute. This attribute would be displayed in the scrap book. Weapons with the planar attribute would deal full damage to planar entities. Any weapons without the planar attribute (dark swords, hambats, etc) would deal 50% or so damage to planar entities, and would also have a unique hit effect to communicate this damage loss. Alignment perks would still be present, and would work similarly to how they do now.

 

Planar entities now only deal planar damage. Planar damage ignores 50% of the total damage reduction from non-planar armor (so a football helmet would have 40% damage reduction as opposed to 80%). When this happens, a similar hit effect to the one mentioned above would happen. Armor with the "planar" attribute would apply their full damage reduction against planar damage (again, this attribute would be mentioned in the scrap book). If necessary, the planar attribute could be split into the "planar offense" and "planar defense" attributes to be less confusing. Obviously planar offense can only be a weapon trait, and planar defense is only an armor trait. The armor alignment perks would stay the same.

 

Of course planar entity health and damage would have to be adjusted to the above mechanics, and so would the planar item stats. The numbers/percentages also aren't gospel; Klei could change those as needed.

I want to mention that I still love the recent content Klei has been adding, despite my complaints about planar and skill trees. My first time fighting armored Bearger is some of the most fun I've had in a DST boss fight. I just think some things could have been implemented better.

[lenship2]

31 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

As opposed to planar damage, let's just make certain weapons have the "planar" attribute. This attribute would be displayed in the scrap book. Weapons with the planar attribute would deal full damage to planar entities. Any weapons without the planar attribute (dark swords, hambats, etc) would deal 50% or so damage to planar entities, and would also have a unique hit effect to communicate this damage loss. Alignment perks would still be present, and would work similarly to how they do now.

they already have a unique effect, and the entire point of the planar sqrt function is to specifically make lower damages have lower damage reduction against planar entities and vice versa

the halved damage would (imo) unfairly affect everything as opposed to the already implemented exponentially scaling damage reduction

planar entity protection definitely encourages planar weapons, but the equation still keeps a lot of weapons viable

36 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

Planar entities now only deal planar damage. Planar damage ignores 50% of the total damage reduction from non-planar armor (so a football helmet would have 40% damage reduction as opposed to 80%). When this happens, a similar hit effect to the one mentioned above would happen. Armor with the "planar" attribute would apply their full damage reduction against planar damage (again, this attribute would be mentioned in the scrap book). If necessary, the planar attribute could be split into the "planar offense" and "planar defense" attributes to be less confusing. Obviously planar offense can only be a weapon trait, and planar defense is only an armor trait. The armor alignment perks would stay the same.

there's still an obvious sound and visual effect for that too

would the planar entities do double damage against players with normal armor, or have armour negation? the current iteration of it is just simple addition; normal damage is normally effected, and planar defense gets subtracted from planar damage

also, the implications of this with dreadstone armour would make it actually ov*rpowered lol

[GimplyGoose]

4 hours ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

My other, lesser gripe is that planar is just too complicated for the average player. The scaling defense, the split between regular and planar damage, none of it feels readable, especially compared to early game combat stats. I came up with what I think would be a much simpler solution, or at least a baseline for such.

So the mechanics of planar damage being obscure is not a problem in my opinion. You don't need to understand the math that is happening behind the scene when you fight stuff with the new gear. Your health goes down slower and it takes less swings to bring down the enemies without being too powerful against threats from earlier in the game.

The hambat does less damage as it gets stale and at any particular time you may not know exactly how much damage it is dealing, but you notice when it starts to take 3 hits to kill a spider instead of 2 (or 2 instead of 1 if you are wolfgang).

[Swiyss]

9 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

So the mechanics of planar damage being obscure is not a problem in my opinion. You don't need to understand the math that is happening behind the scene when you fight stuff with the new gear. Your health goes down slower and it takes less swings to bring down the enemies without being too powerful against threats from earlier in the game.

The hambat does less damage as it gets stale and at any particular time you may not know exactly how much damage it is dealing, but you notice when it starts to take 3 hits to kill a spider instead of 2 (or 2 instead of 1 if you are wolfgang).

Yes, and I can give you an example. 

I was watching a streamer learning the game, and he didn't know about the new bosses and went blind. He took too much damage from varg and said "wait....... true damage?" then he switched to using his bone armour + thulecite crown. After some hits he said "I can't take any damage... maybe the plant items will help?". He then ditched the fight, went back to base, picked his brightshade armour and when he stunned varg he said "omg that's so cool".

You see how someone completely blind to any maths on planar mechanics just found out in minutes, and also think it was cool.

[goatt]

I'm neutral to planar system.

The reason it becomes an issue, in my opinion, is actually not because of itself. But because the rift mobs that has planar damage.

Rift mobs' harassment is so annoying that planar damage/defense is being looked at constantly.

But if you exile the rift, planar system don't affect the gameplay at all.

In Endless public servers I've visited, some people ask for consent "should we open the rift" before actually activate it, because it can be too much and too tedious.

[Yuuko]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:17 AM, Swiyss said:

I think you're maybe misunderstanding how progression should work in dst.

Planar damage works because you should NOT use dark swords to kill planar enemies, but if you try you'll have a hard time. Thats good, it does what is intended to do.

Once BS gear is unlocked you shouldn't use dark swords for anything b/c planar is strictly better.  Higher damage, no sanity drain, repair kits, and other synergy bonuses.  Literally delete planar and the new gear is still what you're going to use.

Planar - as a damage type - already failed.  When Klei released the first drop of this stuff it was obviously bad because it was basically a punish-only system.  You were punished for not using planar, but were not rewarded for using it.  Then they added all of the perks - extra damage, synergy bonuses, repair kits, darkness protection, boss stuns, etc.  THESE are the reasons the new equipment feels rewarding.  But none of this actually has to do with planar damage type.

You never choose to use planar.  You happen to use planar b/c you choose to use all of the other tangible benefits of the new gear.  Even the boss stuns, which actually are b/c of the planar damage type aren't actually something you choose.  Why would you ever choose to fight the boss without planar gear when its so absolutely superior to everything else?

I think its best laid out in your original interaction break down compared to mine.  You see multiple situations as "good," but what makes them good?  What does planar ADD to these?  Nothing.  You don't gain anything from using planar, you only remove a heavy nerf.

What would have been better were more options, and more interactions based on those options.  Where are the clubs with slower attack speed and higher damage, spears with longer reach and lower movement, aoe damage, poison type, active dodge / block?  THESE would have been a much more welcome addition, giving us more options for player expression in how we choose to fight, reinforcing our creativity finding out which options were best for which situations with how we wanted to play.  Much better than "everyone use BS gear now b/c we'll cut your damage in half if you don't."

3 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Yes, and I can give you an example. 

I was watching a streamer learning the game, and he didn't know about the new bosses and went blind. He took too much damage from varg and said "wait....... true damage?" then he switched to using his bone armour + thulecite crown. After some hits he said "I can't take any damage... maybe the plant items will help?". He then ditched the fight, went back to base, picked his brightshade armour and when he stunned varg he said "omg that's so cool".

You see how someone completely blind to any maths on planar mechanics just found out in minutes, and also think it was cool.

tbh this sounds incredibly scripted, like those ppl who tell the stories about how they stood up to a bully on the train "and everyone applauds."

This story sounds so fake.  Who fights lunar varg without having already fought BS plants and crafted the new gear?  x to doubt.

This is either made up, or a streamer hamming it up for his audience.  There is no way this is anyone's actual interaction.

Still proves my point too - Even trusting this little anecdote, this is the single time in this gamer (and his audience's) entire life playing DST where this could possibly happen.  At all points in the future they will just use BS as soon as they can, and never look back - and fr why didn't they anyway?  Higher damage, no down side, repair kits, and other synergy bonuses...  Take planar out and they're still stupid for not using it.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

16 hours ago, lenship2 said:

they already have a unique effect, and the entire point of the planar sqrt function is to specifically make lower damages have lower damage reduction against planar entities and vice versa

the halved damage would (imo) unfairly affect everything as opposed to the already implemented exponentially scaling damage reduction

planar entity protection definitely encourages planar weapons, but the equation still keeps a lot of weapons viable

Yeah I meant that the unique effect would stay as it is, sorry that wasn't communicated well. I feel like the exponential damage reduction is unnecessary. A player is not going to be using a spear against planar entities, so there's no point in trying to keep a spear's viability. On top of this, if Klei wants linear progression, then players should be encouraged to not use spears and instead use stronger, later game weapons. And like I said, 50% damage reduction is just a number that could be changed to 40% etc if it's too punishing. I just think a flat rate will make it much easier to compare weapon strengths, especially if more planar weapons are added in the future.

16 hours ago, lenship2 said:

would the planar entities do double damage against players with normal armor, or have armour negation? the current iteration of it is just simple addition; normal damage is normally effected, and planar defense gets subtracted from planar damage

also, the implications of this with dreadstone armour would make it actually ov*rpowered lol

Yeah you're right, I think planar entities doing double damage against normal armor would achieve what I want better. Dreadstone armor would also need to be reworked of course. 

13 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

So the mechanics of planar damage being obscure is not a problem in my opinion. You don't need to understand the math that is happening behind the scene when you fight stuff with the new gear. Your health goes down slower and it takes less swings to bring down the enemies without being too powerful against threats from earlier in the game.

The hambat does less damage as it gets stale and at any particular time you may not know exactly how much damage it is dealing, but you notice when it starts to take 3 hits to kill a spider instead of 2 (or 2 instead of 1 if you are wolfgang).

I think the obscurity bothers me because of how simple it was to compare armor and weapon stats before. It's very easy to see that 85% damage reduction is better than 80%. However, comparisons like these are much harder to do with planar gear, character affinities, and gear alignments all stacked on top of each other, as well as the other perks the planar sets have gained in the past updates. Now I will admit, currently this isn't a problem because there are two sets of planar gear, so just use one for shadow and one for lunar (and leave dreadstone in the dust lol). But I worry about the future where there are more planar sets.

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Planar - as a damage type - already failed.  When Klei released the first drop of this stuff it was obviously bad because it was basically a punish-only system.  You were punished for not using planar, but were not rewarded for using it.  Then they added all of the perks - extra damage, synergy bonuses, repair kits, darkness protection, boss stuns, etc.  THESE are the reasons the new equipment feels rewarding.  But none of this actually has to do with planar damage type.

If I do more damage on planar mobs with planar damage, then yes it rewards me for using it. 

 

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Why would you ever choose to fight the boss without planar gear when its so absolutely superior to everything else?

Because it's fun, challenging and rewarding. That's my point of view.

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

I think its best laid out in your original interaction break down compared to mine.  You see multiple situations as "good," but what makes them good?  What does planar ADD to these?  Nothing.  You don't gain anything from using planar, you only remove a heavy nerf.

You said "remove a heavy nerf" like that's not a buff... If it's a buff then it rewards you, yeah. Planar damage rewards you for using it, now it's easier to kill planar mobs.

 

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

What would have been better were more options, and more interactions based on those options. 

hmm, they did gave us more options, like the reaper.

 

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Where are the clubs with slower attack speed and higher damage, spears with longer reach and lower movement, aoe damage, poison type, active dodge / block?  THESE would have been a much more welcome addition, giving us more options for player expression in how we choose to fight, reinforcing our creativity finding out which options were best for which situations with how we wanted to play.  Much better than "everyone use BS gear now b/c we'll cut your damage in half if you don't."

I agree 100% here. Klei should take a look and maybe add more creative ways to fight.

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

tbh this sounds incredibly scripted, like those ppl who tell the stories about how they stood up to a bully on the train "and everyone applauds."

This story sounds so fake.  Who fights lunar varg without having already fought BS plants and crafted the new gear?  x to doubt.

This is either made up, or a streamer hamming it up for his audience.  There is no way this is anyone's actual interaction.

Still proves my point too - Even trusting this little anecdote, this is the single time in this gamer (and his audience's) entire life playing DST where this could possibly happen.  At all points in the future they will just use BS as soon as they can, and never look back - and fr why didn't they anyway?  Higher damage, no down side, repair kits, and other synergy bonuses...  Take planar out and they're still stupid for not using it.

a 2 viewer youtube streamer that doesn't speak english, happened to come back to the game, activated rifts on stream without knowing what wagstaff was doing there, crafted 3 bs helmets cause he a noob, stumbled upon a possesed varg and came back to base to grab his gear. I watched it, I interacted and with his voice tone + face reaction and DYING some times, I can assure you it was real. 

I can even link the video where he fought him the first time if you want to.