squanter187 Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 (edited) any ideas? edit- I'm thinking its due to the gasses inside, but I don't have that problem with polluted water one which actually emits gasses... i will evacuate the chamber after I clean up the Slimelung cuz someone sneezed in the room next door Edited December 10, 2023 by squanter187 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asurendra Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 You created infinitive storage Vacuum should do the thing. Or move that wall one tile left so gases will have place to move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Mandor Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Yes, you are correct. Problem is with gases. You get so called "Escher waterfall" effect -- two gases one above another create a space for liquid to fall down. But same gases cannot move up and let liquid to fill tiles.So, all liquid coming from geyser accumulated in bottom chamber, increasing mass infinitely. At some point mass of water became too big and break walls. There are two ways to prevent it. If you don't like effect and want liquid to overpressurize geyser at some moment, then you must pump gases away, or at least open one tile to let them out pressed away by water. If you like this effect, you need walls able to sustain any mass of liquid. This is either walls three tiles wide, just add more tiles. Or airlocks, replace walls near pump with closed mechanical airlocks. Or gas/vacuum, strangely airflow tiles for game mechanic is just gases inside, so they cannot break from liquid mass, and you can replace bottom walls with airflow tiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrabies Posted December 20, 2023 Share Posted December 20, 2023 Can't really tell on the gases, but for the tiles can easily tell you used the wrong type of tiles. Making an infinite storage for liquid you have to use either manual airlock doors or airflow tiles. Anything else will eventually break from the pressure. So if the geyser is to hot or cold use airflow tiles to contain the liquid then insulated tiles around it to contain the temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted December 21, 2023 Share Posted December 21, 2023 (edited) I usually make sure there is no gas in there for liquid geysers (pump it out or fill to the top initially). An alternative is to have 2 (!) tiles distance between the neutronium base and the walls on both sides. You can alios make the walls 3 tiles thick, as liquid pressure can only break a maximum of 2 tile leyers. Edited December 21, 2023 by Gurgel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squanter187 Posted January 1 Author Share Posted January 1 On 12/20/2023 at 1:07 PM, blackrabies said: Making an infinite storage for liquid you have to yeah this wasn't my goal here m8. abusing exploits is not my can of worms. i simply didn't know why my tank was blowing up. On 12/21/2023 at 1:25 PM, Gurgel said: I usually make sure there is no gas in there for liquid geysers (pump it out or fill to the top initially). An alternative is to have 2 (!) tiles distance between the neutronium base and the walls on both sides. You can alios make the walls 3 tiles thick, as liquid pressure can only break a maximum of 2 tile leyers. nah all i needed to do was to open the top and let out the 2nd gas that was there. after that the gas got pushed to the top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberwarlord Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 Not an exploit. It has quite a few drawbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squanter187 Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 20 hours ago, cyberwarlord said: Not an exploit. It has quite a few drawbacks. welp, didn't know infinite density is intended in this game- semantics aside- not a 'mechanic' I'm willing to humour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberwarlord Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 3 hours ago, squanter187 said: welp, didn't know infinite density is intended in this game- semantics aside- not a 'mechanic' I'm willing to humour I have to agree, while I do stuff all the basic solids in a hole together for performance. Also because I tried storing everything and there is no way. I don't use infinite storage tiles for water or gas. Cost extra power and just looks out of place. Never found it necessary either. And you do exploit air tiles to remove the games ability to crush the surrounding blocks. That's where it feels cheaty. Edited January 2 by cyberwarlord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnambic Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 7 hours ago, squanter187 said: welp, didn't know infinite density is intended in this game- semantics aside- not a 'mechanic' I'm willing to humour Infinite compressibility is a consequence of ONI physics. Under certain circumstances, this is just what happens in this world, as you experienced yourself. ONI science has other interesting features, like creatures that transmute elements as part of their digestive process, conservation of mass and energy replaced by a complex set of conversion rules, and a truly weird 2.5+1-dimensional spacetime that seems to be adaptively quantised at the macro scale. And yet, somehow people never seem to notice any of that, except for "infinite storage", which for some reason I cannot begin to comprehend is obviously completely beyond the pale. It even arguably exists in the real world, if under very different circumstances, and with dramatic consequences if "used" long enough. Maybe the game should drop a hint somewhere that exceeding a certain density will cause a black hole to form and consume the entire cluster? (To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with people deciding that they don't want to use certain things existing in-game, I'm just really really curious why it's always this one. And it's been almost always this one pretty much since the game launched into early access.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henlikuoth Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 6 hours ago, cyberwarlord said: And you do exploit air tiles to remove the games ability to crush the surrounding blocks. That's where it feels cheaty. Yeah, I also noticed this one long before already. I always wondered why liquid pressure mechanics for large basins, for example, are even in the game if they can easily and quickly be circumvented by using air floor tiles instead of regular ones. That does not make sense to me. I am not using large water pools, but bypassing pressure mechanics with air floor tiles is just too easy. There is a sense or awareness that this is not right. Anyway, Klei needs to find a solution for all these things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squanter187 Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 11 hours ago, pnambic said: Infinite compressibility is a consequence of ONI physics. Under certain circumstances, this is just what happens in this world, as you experienced yourself. ONI science has other interesting features, like creatures that transmute elements as part of their digestive process, conservation of mass and energy replaced by a complex set of conversion rules, and a truly weird 2.5+1-dimensional spacetime that seems to be adaptively quantised at the macro scale. And yet, somehow people never seem to notice any of that, except for "infinite storage", which for some reason I cannot begin to comprehend is obviously completely beyond the pale. It even arguably exists in the real world, if under very different circumstances, and with dramatic consequences if "used" long enough. Maybe the game should drop a hint somewhere that exceeding a certain density will cause a black hole to form and consume the entire cluster? (To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with people deciding that they don't want to use certain things existing in-game, I'm just really really curious why it's always this one. And it's been almost always this one pretty much since the game launched into early access.) maybe because other 'interesting features' play along the lore of the game and are easy to play along with. any game needs a bit of suspended disbelief. The 'infinite' whatever pushes this a bit too far, and even from a game mechanic perspective its hard to consider it a 'feature' because if it is one then all reservoirs should be removed from the game for being redundant/inefficient. also this mechanic can be 'discovered' by accident while other 'features' need heavy planning and aim to accomplish- however more unrealistic, in your opinion, they might be. the whole 'its not a bug its a feature' is getting a bit old... or maybe i'm getting old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberwarlord Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 minutes ago, squanter187 said: maybe because other 'interesting features' play along the lore of the game and are easy to play along with. any game needs a bit of suspended disbelief. The 'infinite' whatever pushes this a bit too far, and even from a game mechanic perspective its hard to consider it a 'feature' because if it is one then all reservoirs should be removed from the game for being redundant/inefficient. also this mechanic can be 'discovered' by accident while other 'features' need heavy planning and aim to accomplish- however more unrealistic, in your opinion, they might be. the whole 'its not a bug its a feature' is getting a bit old... or maybe i'm getting old User error. All storage is valid and useful in its own right. Air tiles not taking pressure damage is the real evil. And the thing with water and co2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnambic Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, squanter187 said: maybe because other 'interesting features' play along the lore of the game and are easy to play along with. any game needs a bit of suspended disbelief. The 'infinite' whatever pushes this a bit too far, and even from a game mechanic perspective its hard to consider it a 'feature' because if it is one then all reservoirs should be removed from the game for being redundant/inefficient. also this mechanic can be 'discovered' by accident while other 'features' need heavy planning and aim to accomplish- however more unrealistic, in your opinion, they might be. the whole 'its not a bug its a feature' is getting a bit old... or maybe i'm getting old Regarding discoverability: have you encountered hot (but normally thermally inert) Abyssalite flaking oil into petroleum/sour gas yet? ONI physics are weird. Infinite storage is a consequence of ONI physics. The same physics make liquid locks work, bead pumps, submerged electrolyzers, the list goes on. Existing buildings are not a counterargument. Liquid and gas storages are buffers. They take no energy to pump out their contents, they have built-in automation for such purposes. Besides, do you think oil refineries should be removed because petroleum boilers are possible? Or maybe petroleum boilers being possible is a bug. But this is getting long already. I'll cut to the chase: How would you fix the infinite storage bug? Before you answer, consider also: what's your stance on debris just piling up in a single tile forever, like at the bottom of ladder shafts? It's infinite, it can be used for automated storage/retrieval via existing buildings (automatic dispenser, solid shipping). Almost all liquids and gases can be frozen into debris and stored infinitely that way, too. So if this is a bug, I would like to hear your proposal for a fix. How is this going to work, conceptually, and how will it improve gameplay? Take your time. As I said in a similar discussion a few weeks ago, the game has been around for over six years with this "bug". Just tag me when you come up with something. Edited January 2 by pnambic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squanter187 Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 (edited) ooof weird copes vibes. "User error." - me calling it an exploit? ok "Infinite storage is a consequence of ONI physics. The same physics make liquid locks work, bead pumps, submerged electrolyzers, the list goes on. " list of what? exploits? I don't use any of those even tho i'm well aware of their existence, so not sure how this is going to convince me that 'infinite water storage tank is a thing I should be using, cuz its 'intended' "Besides, do you think oil refineries should be removed because petroleum boilers are possible? Or maybe petroleum boilers being possible is a bug. But this is getting long already. I'll cut to the chase:" [edit- i had to mention this is a red herring because its completely irrelevant to the issue at hand- aka things that make 0 sense, but here is my answer to your question] no because making a large scale petro boil is a heavy investemt late game build, while refinary is early game and sometimes good enopugh for late game as well... all while 'infinite storage' of liquid needs few more tiles and 2 gasses trapped within the box- do you smell that? smells like cheese, and not the good kind neither. "How would you fix the infinite storage bug? Before you answer, consider also: what's your stance on debris just piling up in a single tile forever, like at the bottom of ladder shafts? It's infinite" before i answer then- if you use debris piles as a legit storage strat its the same cheese. fix for singularity water tank? if non-compressible liquid reaches value that is higher than lets say pool of 40 tiles deep, start blowing up tiles around it. sounds pretty ez to implement. Edited January 3 by squanter187 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henlikuoth Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 19 hours ago, cyberwarlord said: I have to agree, while I do stuff all the basic solids in a hole together for performance. Also because I tried storing everything and there is no way. Yeah, I only use the automatic dispensers and the one-tile "solution" because there is not much else possible currently. The normal storage bins work best in specific situations, especially in combination with the auto-sweeper. But they are not suited for storing very large amounts unless you want to place many of them somewhere. I did that before, but then, the automatic dispenser is simply more convenient, even though I am not a fan of doing it like that. Maybe a new type of storage building could help. I imagine a storage building around 1.5 times the size of a gas reservoir. It could store, let's say, 200 tons of solid materials. If you then place five of them, you would be able to store 1000 tons already, which would be already a huge chunk. The building could have automation and a shipping outlet/inlet to make it more attractive. This might help already with handling large amounts of solid material and prevent the temptation to just use an automatic dispenser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asurendra Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) Infinitive storage may or may not be bug itself. But it tightly connected with two definitely bugs: it cause liquid duplication. Right know there is no way to avoid it, it always happens when mass in cell become too big. And second problem: extra high mass causes out of memory crash. Both is critical problems. And its really hard to avoid them: after duplication starts its almost impossible to decrease amount of liquid, it generates faster than pump can remove it. So your colony is on timer... It is really, really long timer, yes, but if you play long enough you inevitable meet it Edited January 3 by asurendra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henlikuoth Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, asurendra said: extra high mass causes out of memory crash lol, I did not even notice that thread before. If I counted the zeros/digits correctly, the person has 47 decillions 62 nonillions 370 octillion tons of salt water. God, what an absurdity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnambic Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 hours ago, asurendra said: Infinitive storage may or may not be bug itself. But it tightly connected with two definitely bugs: it cause liquid duplication. Right know there is no way to avoid it, it always happens when mass in cell become too big. And second problem: extra high mass causes out of memory crash. That's why I mentioned black holes in my reply. There are trade-offs to everything. 9 hours ago, squanter187 said: "Infinite storage is a consequence of ONI physics. The same physics make liquid locks work, bead pumps, submerged electrolyzers, the list goes on. " list of what? exploits? I don't use any of those even tho i'm well aware of their existence, so not sure how this is going to convince me that 'infinite water storage tank is a thing I should be using, cuz its 'intended' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcLayGm_pM4 ... pause 15 seconds in and scrub forward. Wait, I'll do it for you: Spoiler There are a T-lock and a corner lock in this picture. ONI is a game about using the physics of the world to achieve results that you cannot achieve otherwise. 9 hours ago, squanter187 said: "Besides, do you think oil refineries should be removed because petroleum boilers are possible? Or maybe petroleum boilers being possible is a bug. But this is getting long already. I'll cut to the chase:" [edit- i had to mention this is a red herring because its completely irrelevant to the issue at hand- aka things that make 0 sense, but here is my answer to your question] no because making a large scale petro boil is a heavy investemt late game build, while refinary is early game and sometimes good enopugh for late game as well... all while 'infinite storage' of liquid needs few more tiles and 2 gasses trapped within the box- do you smell that? smells like cheese, and not the good kind neither. You made it relevant because you argued that infinite storage obsoletes the provided containers and is therefore not intended. I argue what I said above. The tools you are supplied with are sufficient, but you can do better by actually playing the game. 9 hours ago, squanter187 said: "How would you fix the infinite storage bug? Before you answer, consider also: what's your stance on debris just piling up in a single tile forever, like at the bottom of ladder shafts? It's infinite" before i answer then- if you use debris piles as a legit storage strat its the same cheese. fix for singularity water tank? if non-compressible liquid reaches value that is higher than lets say pool of 40 tiles deep, start blowing up tiles around it. sounds pretty ez to implement. You know that that is already in the game, because it's what happened to you by accident and made you open this thread. There are also ways around it, as also mentioned in this thread, so what you want is to stop those (3-tile walls, airflow tiles, pressure doors) from working. But there are natural processes that can create very high pressures without player intervention. There are geodes that spawn with ridiculous pressures. Should they just crush adjacent biomes before you even see them? Apart from that, the answer is incomplete. If basically infinite mass in a small space is an abomination, how do you deal with solids doing this? The last person I had this discussion with said that they had a good idea and would write something up later. They seem to have come around by now to using automatic dispensers for bulk storage and are pondering larger-capacity storage boxes. That's cool. But to fix the perceived problem in a world with very large storage boxes, you'd have to force players to use these things instead of letting stuff drop where it wants and just not touching it again. Does that sound fun to you? Anyway, you play the game however you want, that doesn't diminish my or anyone else's capacity to enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asurendra Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 3 hours ago, Henlikuoth said: lol, I did not even notice that thread before. If I counted the zeros/digits correctly, the person has 47 decillions 62 nonillions 370 octillion tons of salt water. God, what an absurdity... There was another bug report when inf.storage cause sim crash cos engine cant properly calculate heat exchange. Thats bug happens randomly and may happen with much lower mass in cell. Sadly I dont bookmark that thread and cant find it now. Upd. That thread also prove duplication existence. Guy meet out-of-memory at cycle 926. Thats 926*600 = 555000 seconds. Its just not possible to pump 47 decillions of water in storage for that time. Most of that salt water appeared inside that storage, it has never been outside Edited January 3 by asurendra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squanter187 Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 (edited) 6 hours ago, pnambic said: That's why I mentioned black holes in my reply. There are trade-offs to everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcLayGm_pM4 ... pause 15 seconds in and scrub forward. Wait, I'll do it for you: Reveal hidden contents There are a T-lock and a corner lock in this picture. ONI is a game about using the physics of the world to achieve results that you cannot achieve otherwise. You made it relevant because you argued that infinite storage obsoletes the provided containers and is therefore not intended. I argue what I said above. The tools you are supplied with are sufficient, but you can do better by actually playing the game. You know that that is already in the game, because it's what happened to you by accident and made you open this thread. There are also ways around it, as also mentioned in this thread, so what you want is to stop those (3-tile walls, airflow tiles, pressure doors) from working. But there are natural processes that can create very high pressures without player intervention. There are geodes that spawn with ridiculous pressures. Should they just crush adjacent biomes before you even see them? Apart from that, the answer is incomplete. If basically infinite mass in a small space is an abomination, how do you deal with solids doing this? The last person I had this discussion with said that they had a good idea and would write something up later. They seem to have come around by now to using automatic dispensers for bulk storage and are pondering larger-capacity storage boxes. That's cool. But to fix the perceived problem in a world with very large storage boxes, you'd have to force players to use these things instead of letting stuff drop where it wants and just not touching it again. Does that sound fun to you? Anyway, you play the game however you want, that doesn't diminish my or anyone else's capacity to enjoy it. very long contradictory premise... impressive also I don't watch YT content of the games I play so I will pass on that link- but thanks for doing it for me cheers edit: "causes out of memory crash. " sounds like a "User error" Edited January 3 by squanter187 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asurendra Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 24 minutes ago, squanter187 said: sounds like a "User error" Can you build inf.storage with 47 decillions of water in in every cell at 900 cycle? Without spawning it with dev tools? I cant. A bit of math: one liquid vent can emit 10kg of water per second. Lets forget that usually inf.storage has one vent. Imagine it has 1000 vents somehow. That give us 10 ton of water pumped in per second. 900 cycles = 540 000 seconds. 10000 kg per second * 540 000 seconds = 5 400 000 000 kg pumped in. Not even close to 1 decillion, you know... So it has nothing with user error. No way user can create that amount. Game bug created it. Inf.storage is bugged as hell, and should be avoided because of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnambic Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 45 minutes ago, squanter187 said: very long contradictory premise... impressive also I don't watch YT content of the games I play so I will pass on that link- but thanks for doing it for me cheers edit: "causes out of memory crash. " sounds like a "User error" For heaven's sake. The video is the official release trailer for ONI. It shows Klei using water locks. Is the relevance of that fact to this discussion comprehensible to you? And I indeed do not care how you play. But you're out here, telling people that using this game's mechanics is cheesing it using exploits. That's what I'm responding to. Edited January 3 by pnambic 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squanter187 Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 3 hours ago, pnambic said: For heaven's sake. The video is the official release trailer for ONI. It shows Klei using water locks. Is the relevance of that fact to this discussion comprehensible to you? And I indeed do not care how you play. But you're out here, telling people that using this game's mechanics is cheesing it using exploits. That's what I'm responding to. earlier i mentioned that the 'its not a bug but a feature' is getting old as I would not be surprised if devs would straight up say that instead of dealing with this, and yeh if devs say liquid airlocks are a feature i disagree as its a cheese to the max for me. its not like its a first time the aforementioned phrase was used and made fun of also this thread reminds me of PoE forums after path notes, which is hilarious oh n the other guy needs to lighten up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberwarlord Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/3/2024 at 1:36 AM, asurendra said: Infinitive storage may or may not be bug itself. But it tightly connected with two definitely bugs: it cause liquid duplication. Right know there is no way to avoid it, it always happens when mass in cell become too big. And second problem: extra high mass causes out of memory crash. Both is critical problems. And its really hard to avoid them: after duplication starts its almost impossible to decrease amount of liquid, it generates faster than pump can remove it. So your colony is on timer... It is really, really long timer, yes, but if you play long enough you inevitable meet it We have a fellow voice of reason. I'd like to add airflow tiles not taking pressure damage as the exploit/glitch to the list. Maybe for game purposes if a tile fills past a huge limit it starts breaking tiles till it can resolve the pressure. Idk. Definitely some type solution though. On 1/2/2024 at 6:31 AM, Henlikuoth said: Yeah, I also noticed this one long before already. I always wondered why liquid pressure mechanics for large basins, for example, are even in the game if they can easily and quickly be circumvented by using air floor tiles instead of regular ones. That does not make sense to me. I am not using large water pools, but bypassing pressure mechanics with air floor tiles is just too easy. There is a sense or awareness that this is not right. Anyway, Klei needs to find a solution for all these things. An this comment. Your on the list too. Rational, sensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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