How I would rework Wilson's skill tree.

[mkemal23]

As somebody who has been playing Wilson before and after his "rework", I can safely say that he's not doing very good right now.

Wilson has always been the "default" character of Don't starve and he was doing relatively fine until the first skill tree spotlight update got released.

The problem of these new skill trees is that they just give so much power without giving any downsides that these characters became straight up upgraded versions of Wilson.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with other chracters getting what they always deserved, but now they have so little downsides that Wilson's "No Downsides" upside just does not matter anymore.

And when you combine this with the fact that his skill tree is the worst one out of the six of them, You get a very disappionted Wilson main.

 

So, after crying in a lot of threads, I want to give my feedback about Wilson's skill tree, and show some possible reworks/replacements:

 

Torch Longevity: 

• Torches last for 75 seconds, and Torch longevity I/II/II increases this to (around) 90/120/150 seconds.
  • As you can see, even with the third skill, torches can not even come close to lanterns.(lanterns last for 480 seconds)
• My suggestion is:
  • Torch longevity I: Makes torches last for 150seconds
  • Torch longevity II: Makes torches last for 300 seconds
  • Torch longevity III: Allows player to use twigs to repair torches for %25 durability.

 

Torch Range: 

•  Torch range I/II/II increases torch radius by one. This means that Torch range III makes torches slighty worse than lanterns.
  • Considering that torches don't loose light radius with durability, I think this skill can stay like this.
• My Suggestion:
• Torch range I: Increase torch light radius to 4. (normaly it would start at 3, and would go to 5)
• Torch range II Increase torch light radius to 5.
• Torch range III: Torches now give warmth to player.

 

Torch toss:

• If you have the torch longevity III skill, you can now repair your thrown torches.
• If you have torch range III skill, now you can use your torch as a mini campfire.

 

Transmutation:

• Transmutation skills are much better condition than torch skills. So, I won't go much details for these ones.
• Twigs and Logs transmutation is removed and replaced with Transmute Icky I (Meat transmutation)

Transmute Gems:

• Gem crafting ratios has been changed to 2 to 1 instead of 3 to 1
  • Gem transmutation does not change much when it comes to Wilsons gameplay. So, by making this change, players who ruins rush are encouraged to choose these skills.

Transmute Ore:

• No changes.

 

Transmute Icky:

• Transmute Icky I: The recipe has moved to transmutiton tab, and this tab is replaced with:
  • 2 Boneshards to 1 hound tooth
  • 2 Hound teeth to 1 Boneshard
  • 6 rot to 1 Manure
• Transmute Icky II: Beard hair/beefalo wool recipe has been removed and replaced with:
  • 3 Spider glands to 1 Pig skin
  • 1 Pig skin to 2 spider glands
• Transmute Icky III: The recipe has moved to Transmute Icky I tab, and this tab is replaced with:
  • 2 Lightbulbs to 1 Lesser glow berry
  • 3 lesser glowberry to 1 glow berry
  • 1 glow berry to 2 Lesser glow berry

 

Beard Hair storage:

• Beard tab is much usefull than most of Wilson's skill. So, there isn't much to change here except:
  • No matter beard growth skills, Wilson's beards always grows like this:
  • 4/8/16(no skill), 3/7/15(beard growth I), 3/6/12(beard growth II), 2/5/10(beard growth III)
  • My suggestion:
  • Make it so, last stage of the beard gives you two inventory slots instead.

 

Affinity:

• Added new recipe to lunar affinity:
  • 1 Infused moon shard to 2 moon glass
  • You can ignore this part. I know that Infused shards turn into moon glass, but I couldn't help myself.

 

And Finally:

Spoiler

Please klei. I'm BEGGING.

 

I tried my best to not go out of the "default" character thing Wilson has. But I still tried to give him some big indirect buffs with transmutiton+ transmute Icky. And no, I agree that Wilson does not need direct buffs or other flashy stuff. But at this point, he needs something, anything, klei.

[Swiyss]

3 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

The problem of these new skill trees is that they just give so much power without giving any downsides

Well said, very well said. Klei should take a look at this.

I feel like your solution of fixing this issue by overbuffing wilson is not great though. We should just make it so certain perks are only unlockable after doing specific task inside each world, and others being tied per account.

[Cheggf]

Torches are essentially free, made from materials most people have on hand anyways. Lanterns require you to explicitly go out of your way to travel through multiple loading screens to gather a perishable item to refuel them. If torches lasted as long as lanterns while also being able to burn things and also being able to be refueled and also making you warm and also acting as campfires, why would anyone ever use the more expensive thing with less functionality? They're good as they are right now, with the choice between an easily replaceable disposable thing or something more expensive that requires less frequent refueling/replacing.

These torch suggestions are in the same vain as making it so that all of Wolfgang's dumbbells, even the starter stone one, deal as much damage as a dark sword without any of the drawbacks of dark swords like cost or sanity drain for no justification other than wanting his perk items to make everything else in that slot completely irrelevant. 

5 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Torch longevity III: Allows player to use twigs to repair torches for %25 durability.

Except this, this is fun. 

[mkemal23]

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Torches are essentially free, made from materials most people have on hand anyways. Lanterns require you to explicitly go out of your way to travel through multiple loading screens to gather a perishable item to refuel them. If torches lasted as long as lanterns while also being able to burn things and also being able to be refueled and also making you warm and also acting as campfires, why would anyone ever use the more expensive thing with less functionality? They're good as they are right now, with the choice between an easily replaceable disposable thing or something more expensive that requires less frequent refueling/replacing.

I get what you are saying. Torches are avalible at day one so making them one of the strongest light/heat sources in the game does not feel right. But come on now, It's not like you achive that with just one skill, you need seven insight points to make your own portable campfire. And also, the transmutation/beard skills would most likely not let player to just dump half of their points to torch tree.

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

These torch suggestions are in the same vain as making it so that all of Wolfgang's dumbbells, even the starter stone one, deal as much damage as a dark sword without any of the drawbacks of dark swords like cost or sanity drain for no justification other than wanting his perk items to make everything else in that slot completely irrelevant. 

I disagree. Kinda. Not only Dark sword is nowhere near easy to get a lantern(I know you used dark swords as an example, but still), Wilson has little to nothing compared to Wolfgang or other chracters when it comes to gameplay stuff. So, I think that giving him just one item that is usefull as multiple light sources is justified.

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Except this, this is fun. 

Thank You!

[Dr.Webber]

Good animations but I did have one thing to add to the lunar tab converting pure brilliance in to infused moon rock 

[Q42]

As an occasional Wilson player, I like this. Only thing I would change is bringing back the transmute logs to twigs, because that's the transmutation I unironically use the most.

Also, seems a bit counterintuitive that his torch tree would make you never need to get lightbulbs, but then he has transmutations to encourage you to pick lightbulbs. I would end up living off of moggles and lanterns while never using his torch tree. I guess you could argue it gives you more options but I don't know, I'm just throwing my immediate thoughts at you.

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

I get what you are saying. Torches are avalible at day one so making them one of the strongest light/heat sources in the game does not feel right. But come on now, It's not like you achive that with just one skill, you need seven insight points to make your own portable campfire. And also, the transmutation/beard skills would most likely not let player to just dump half of their points to torch tree.

Even with your changes to the transmutation tree I don't see anything that would make me pick it over the current unaltered torch tree. The only thing I'd care about is turning rocks into flint, for the very start of the game before finding any flint in-case I find rocks on the floor.

8 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

I disagree. Kinda. Not only Dark sword is nowhere near easy to get a lantern(I know you used dark swords as an example, but still)

Dark swords and lanterns are both the most expensive and highest tier item in their respective category (or at least dark swords used to be). There is no hand slot item that's a better light source than a lantern, it's the best of the best, the very tippy top of light in the hand slot. I also think dark swords aren't as difficult to acquire as you're suggesting, all you need to do is find a single totally normal tree (or kill some mushgnomes), dig a few graves, and catch a few rabbits, then you've got dark swords.

8 hours ago, mkemal23 said:

Wilson has little to nothing compared to Wolfgang or other chracters when it comes to gameplay stuff.

Which is how it should be. He doesn't need to be powercrept to be 60x stronger just because everyone else has. If you want to play overpowered characters you have the entire rest of the roster, him being intentionally bland is on purpose and not a criticism of the character or his skill tree.

[Dandefender]

I liked your explanation and arguments, counter-arguments and points ! The skill trees are great but I don't like that some of them are straight omega upgrades at no cost.

 

I didn't enjoy the suggestions that much:

I think that if Klei devs just "mash" both torch skills into a single one (more light + longer time I/II/III) and create a brand new one for him, he could be much better and balanced.

[mkemal23]

10 hours ago, Q42 said:

As an occasional Wilson player, I like this. Only thing I would change is bringing back the transmute logs to twigs, because that's the transmutation I unironically use the most.

Yes, I like Log transmutation as well. It helps you in early/mig game crafting and works nice with twigy trees. But I also didn't want to remove Boneshard or meat transmutation. That's why log transmutation was thrown out.

10 hours ago, Q42 said:

Also, seems a bit counterintuitive that his torch tree would make you never need to get lightbulbs, but then he has transmutations to encourage you to pick lightbulbs. I would end up living off of moggles and lanterns while never using his torch tree. I guess you could argue it gives you more options but I don't know, I'm just throwing my immediate thoughts at you.

Now this is something I never really thought of. And yes, you are right. My transmute Icky III suggestion kinda overshadows torch tree, lol. Especially for early game ruins clearing, I don't think anybody would go for torch tab because Glowberry transmutation exists.

10 hours ago, Dandefender said:

I liked your explanation and arguments, counter-arguments and points ! The skill trees are great but...

Thank you.

10 hours ago, Dandefender said:

 but I don't like that some of them are straight omega upgrades at no cost.

I didn't enjoy the suggestions that much:

I think that if Klei devs just "mash" both torch skills into a single one (more light + longer time I/II/III) and create a brand new one for him, he could be much better and balanced.

I wish my friend. This was what I actually suggested when Wilson's skill tree was in beta. (I can't find the thread i made but here is the original image I used to explain what I was suggesting)

Spoiler

But, Klei almost did no change to Wilson in Wilson's "rework" beta. So In this thread, I included things that don't require that much focusing, And didn't include actual reworks.

[Creatorofswamps]

On 12/6/2023 at 6:54 AM, Cheggf said:

why would anyone ever use the more expensive thing with less functionality

* coughing* The Wigfried shield exists

10 hours ago, Q42 said:

As an occasional Wilson player, I like this. Only thing I would change is bringing back the transmute logs to twigs, because that's the transmutation I unironically use the most.

I totally agree with you:D

[Cheggf]

8 minutes ago, Creatorofswamps said:

* coughing* The Wigfried shield exists

And as we all know, if Klei does something that automatically makes it perfect and immune to criticism. Unless you want to buff things. Then Klei isn't perfect, then things need to be buffed.

[Creatorofswamps]

24 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

And as we all know, if Klei does something that automatically makes it perfect and immune to criticism. Unless you want to buff things. Then Klei isn't perfect, then things need to be buffed.

Honestly, I don't understand what you wrote, maybe it's the translator. You're just saying that an improved torch will outshine a lantern. Just like right now, the shield of Wigfried eclipses the shield of terror

[Cheggf]

4 minutes ago, Creatorofswamps said:

Honestly, I don't understand what you wrote, maybe it's the translator. You're just saying that an improved torch will outshine a lantern. Just like right now, the shield of Wigfried eclipses the shield of terror

What Klei's done elsewhere is irrelevant. Klei doing something doesn't automatically mean it's good. Wigfrid's shield fully eclipsing the Shield of Terror is just as bad as if Wilson's torches fully eclipsed lanterns, or if Wolfgang's dumbbells fully eclipsed dark swords, or if Wormwood's bramble husk fully eclipsed thulecite suits & night armor, or anything else like that. Character specific items should have their own unique identity which gives them a specific purpose, not be some best in slot thing that makes everything else irrelevant and essentially removes choice and creativity.

[chirsg]

I'd add feathers to transmute icky. 

[Creatorofswamps]

48 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

What Klei's done elsewhere is irrelevant. Klei doing something doesn't automatically mean it's good. Wigfrid's shield fully eclipsing the Shield of Terror is just as bad as if Wilson's torches fully eclipsed lanterns, or if Wolfgang's dumbbells fully eclipsed dark swords, or if Wormwood's bramble husk fully eclipsed thulecite suits & night armor, or anything else like that. Character specific items should have their own unique identity which gives them a specific purpose, not be some best in slot thing that makes everything else irrelevant and essentially removes choice and creativity.

Now I understand your point of view, thank you. It turns out that, based on this point of view, would it be a good idea to Throwing a lantern or cook food on a torch stuck in the ground?

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Creatorofswamps said:

Now I understand your point of view, thank you. It turns out that, based on this point of view, would it be a good idea to Throwing a lantern or cook food on a torch stuck in the ground?

Cooking food on a torch isn't particularly important, I don't really care if it can do that. I take issue with it having a similar durability to the lantern in addition to all of its functionality, there would simply be no reason to use the lantern any more. Right now, or even if you could cook on a thrown torch or repair it with twigs, both the torch and lantern are about equally attractive on Wilson with the choice coming down to your playstyle. If the only advantage of the lantern (a long durability without needing to do something for it) were given to the torch there'd no longer be much of a choice. Everyone would pick the cheaper thing that does more. 

[chirsg]

You know, I'd actually be in favor of characters getting additional perks in the future even if they have had their skill trees done. 
For example, just in a random slot, Wormwood could get his petal perk back. No skin off my back. I never thought that was overtuned or overpowered. If there are perk points which are left over, a Wormwood could invest into that.

Or if in the future, Wolfgang crafts a barbell. I don't care.

Or Woodie getting a proper sawmill where he can craft hundreds of boards at once. 

 

I think we should find a common ground and agree on something.