How bad do you think a global nerf on armor would be?

[cropo]

I don't really think it would improve the game, it would make a lot of options less desirable as well. I'd probably never ever use body-slot armors if they were 10% weaker than they are currently.

 

Really just feels like it'd make the game more miserable and would incentivize not engaging with content.

[goatt]

14 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You admit it isn't hard to properly prepare and nobody is going in unprepared but still pretend like everyone only knows how to get exactly the amount of healing they need right now and it's impossible for them to get slightly more. 

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I can't understand it. 

[goatt]

 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

...Of course you're left with less health after 1 armor breaks BUT after 1 armor breaking you need more armor and healing either way.  This only puts the need for healing ahead of the value of a second armor...

MOST deaths by a wide margin are from people not wearing armor at all, not healing at all, or dying by non-damage means like starving, darkness, heat / cold.  A nerf to armor doesn't effect any of these

"A nerf to armor doesn't affect any of these (who don't wear armor in the first place)". I agree. It doesnt affect them. But it does affect new players who do wear armor. I think we shouldn't stop calling a new player "new" just because they discovered how to craft log suits. In other words, it will affect new players who have discovered the armor and use them.

 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

and once a player can stack armor and heal well as you said:

Quote

... the effective health of armor doesn't matter, because no one would want to go in with under-preparation.

This would mean you need to weave healing into fights more if you intend to tank but really I don't see how that is a bad thing.  It is not essential that tanking be more efficient then any other strat.

More healing is exactly my point. Healing cost is also a learning cost for new players. And it's tightly linked to death or the end of a game. Players will exit fights with HP or less HP that's equivelant to healings. Subsequently,

1. they die faster to "non-damage means like starving, darkness, heat / cold" and have to end game earlier and have less opportunity to learn and progress. or

2. they have to sacrifice more time to heal back up, and have less time or opportunity to learn and progress. Exactly how much more time? 50% more for log suits and helmets.

[Wonz]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:55 PM, Shosuko said:

Say we took armor down a notch.  Generally it would be a 10% decrease in armor protection across the board - with granularity for some armors like cookie cap that is already a low defense option probably doesn't need its defense further reduced etc.

This is as an alternative to "we're adding planar to nerf pre-existing armor for end-game"

I've said it before but my opinion is (spoilers so you can vote without my influence)

  Reveal hidden contents

I feel if armor protects too much to maintain risk in the "end game" then it is too strong all throughout the game.  If 95% protection is too much for zombie Bearger then it is too much for AFW, CC, etc.

imo it makes sense that 95% can be too much, high percent reduction like this gets out of control quickly.  Going from 0 to 80% is effectively 5x base health, and going to 95% is 20x base health...  If we even tried to add 2% more to this it would be ~33x base health...  see how quick it gets out of control?

These are big leaps in effective health that mean any monster needs to also scale dramatically to make 95% reduction feel risky at all.  Rather we could simply reduce these values so an alchemy tier armor can give 70% instead (~3x effective health) and the top tier would be up to 85% (6x effective health) giving us a more narrow spread between armors, allowing things to be "less risky" but not "ignorable" at the top end.

 

Should cookie cutter cap be so low to being with? It might be more hustle to make than log suit but it's worse. If it was 80% it could be partial remedy to people hammering pig houses.  

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Wonz said:

Should cookie cutter cap be so low to being with? It might be more hustle to make than log suit but it's worse. If it was 80% it could be partial remedy to people hammering pig houses.  

IF you're living on the sea - dedicated living out there - you can use cutter fish to re-up monster meat supplies and use the shells as a primary armor source.  70% damage reduction is low but ocean dishes heal pretty well and combat is not very frequent.  For boat life it is serviceable.

At 70% its too weak relative to other armors to ever really be useful.  Even if other armor were dropped to 70 without lowering cutter's resists it would still be less appealing b/c of its higher costs.  Cutter fish are out of the way, and a whole ordeal to locate and farm.  I rarely see more than 10 cutter shells during my games, just enough for pearl. 

imo it needs special properties like reflective damage, 100% wetness reduction, or something to actually make it pop.

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, Wonz said:

Should cookie cutter cap be so low to being with? It might be more hustle to make than log suit but it's worse. If it was 80% it could be partial remedy to people hammering pig houses.  

CCC is way harder to get than leather, it will do nothing to discourage people from hammering pig houses and it will not be any better a replacement if you're looking for armor in a pigless world. 70% protection is sufficient, and due to the scarcity of the materials I honestly think bumping it up to 80% would be a nerf since the armor (which is much harder to obtain than healing items) would break faster. 

[MondayNight]

On 11/18/2023 at 3:33 PM, Cheggf said:

If anyone never plays pubs it's you. The vast majority of deaths are caused by hunger, temperature, sanity, darkness, absentmindedness, a contraction of the AFK disease, or not wearing armor at all. If someone is dying while wearing armor they're probably AFK or just mindlessly holding F without thinking or healing, both of which being situations that wouldn't change with a reduction.

Fancy omitting precisely the essential part. Lemme underline it again, just for you:

On 11/16/2023 at 7:19 PM, MostMerryTomcat said:

TANKING...

Each armor nerfs for such players means lower survivability and a harder transition from casual to regular/recurrent player. Once again and more 'nd bis: Why do you want to make bulk player-base's in-game life harder from day 1 and enlarge the DST quitting rates further? What is the general fun with such a change?

 

 

On 11/18/2023 at 3:33 PM, Cheggf said:

And the hard part about tanking is getting the armor. I don't believe for a second there's a single person out there who can acquire the correct amount of armor and the correct amount of healing but can't get slightly more healing. People always overstock on healing anyways, they never do math to figure out how much to bring and just make a ton of food. 

Because, for most people playing DST, the game is hard: there is too much to take into account on since recurrent cumulative threats happening all time, especially in pub context. But is ok, as stated: you lot just want an early game global nerf to justify the deletion of Planar component post-Rifts late-game 'cause.. made-up reasons. Both unwarranted and not happening. Not popular, the global nerf, even among forums' experienced players, and Planar too much developed for devs to suddenly "Oh, wow, we made such huge mistake for over half year now, glad to see the same 5 people posting ad infinitum that we went off rails finally beaten some sense into us, pfiu!".

[Yuuko]

6 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Because, for most people playing DST, the game is hard:

Um, healing is already part of the stack.  This doesn't "add" anything, it just shifts the balance to maintain risk as armor progresses.

[MondayNight]

8 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Um, healing is already part of the stack.  This doesn't "add" anything, it just shifts the balance to maintain risk as armor progresses.

There's no need for any shifting of balance early-game just because a handful of people dislike Planar late-game.

Yet will undoubtedly harm game's general player retention, casual-to-regular experienced.

[Yuuko]

32 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

There's no need for any shifting of balance early-game just because a handful of people dislike Planar late-game.

Yet will undoubtedly harm game's general player retention, casual-to-regular experienced.

How can you possibly attribute so much importance to this?  Seriously, on what basis do you think a new player would even notice this change?  They will die without armor, find armor and get more durability, and then need to heal to restore health.  In what situation do you think a new player NEEDS to tank through 2 football helmets or they will quit the game?

[Mike23Ua]

If you want my honest opinion, I’ve been in the caves for about 2 or 3 hours trying to find the ancient p word crafting station to build both a Starcaller & Deconstruction staff- Caves which are filled to the brim full of Nightmare Creatures and Depth Worms, I’ve died plenty of times…

And because of that I don’t think Armor needs any nerfing whatsoever, sooner or later you guys have to realize that some of you are just “Too Good” at the game… but I do deeply wish Klei had a backlog of my gameplay data so that they can see what all I’ve been through in just the past hour.

And anyone who realistically expects me to be able to dodge and kite 4 terror beaks, 3 crawling horrors, 2 clockwork bishops, Shadow Splumonkey, and at least 6 Depth Worms have lost their flipping minds…

Armor doesn’t need a nerf…. in fact I’d say some of the enemies actually need that nerf more than anything.

[Yuuko]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And anyone who realistically expects me to be able to dodge and kite 4 terror beaks, 3 crawling horrors, 2 clockwork bishops, Shadow Splumonkey, and at least 6 Depth Worms have lost their flipping minds…

Armor doesn’t need a nerf…. in fact I’d say some of the enemies actually need that nerf more than anything.

Here's the thing - most people, no matter how "good" they are won't be able to kite all of that.  Its not dealt with by stacking even more armor and healing either.  The answer is to recognize where these mobs are, how much to expect, and how to get them in bite size pieces AND / OR how to avoid them completely.

Which is kinda my point about how nerfing armor wouldn't actually be that detrimental*.  The answer to your woes of looking for the ancient (p word?) crafting station isn't that armor needs to be exactly as good.  Even with better armor you'd be just as screwed in this situation.  What you need is to gain more experience in the caves, muddy, and ruins so you can learn how to interact with all of this better.

I went through the same growing pains.  When I started I didn't know my way around the caves at all and died to cave ins while surrounded by bats or slurpers, and once I thought I had everything together I would get glomped by depth wurms or nightmare cycle would kick on lol.  But now that I've played many many hours in the ruins I know better how to play around all of this to get what I want.

*idk why but I feel I gotta say this - it would not be detrimental, you'd still be able to play - yes nerfing armor would be a nerf (gasp) and you would be more at risk while playing - BUT the thing is for new players the mistakes they make, like Mike here, aren't solved by 70 => 80% armor resists.  They are solved by learning the game more and becoming better players.

[grm9]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

And anyone who realistically expects me to be able to dodge and kite 4 terror beaks, 3 crawling horrors, 2 clockwork bishops, Shadow Splumonkey, and at least 6 Depth Worms have lost their flipping minds…

everything you listed can be kited and you can hit bishops with a torch to make them panic or just not make them aggro by remembering where they are in every setpiece, and if you meant all of those at once, then that's just your fault that you made them all aggro, don't go to more enemies until you have no enemies currently chasing you unless you're killing monkeys with a rook 

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Armor doesn’t need a nerf…. in fact I’d say some of the enemies actually need that nerf more than anything.

where's the fun in having the game be easy enough to not need to learn anything if those things don't kill you if you if you try killing them instead of avoiding them and killing a few at a time 

[Antynomity]

12 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

There's no need for any shifting of balance early-game just because a handful of people dislike Planar late-game.

Yet will undoubtedly harm game's general player retention, casual-to-regular experienced.

Blehhhh, them casuals!!! Yeah, this will help them transition into better players because they will HAVE to pay more attention to their stats, also gotta love how one bad decision should stay in the game just because it was in the game for half a year.

[Hungry French]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

where's the fun in having the game be easy enough to not need to learn anything if those things don't kill you if you if you try killing them instead of avoiding them and killing a few at a time 

In the game, the armor has already been weakened by multiplayer changes.
Klei clearly won't want to make the game harder for multiplayer. It's not profitable for them.

And to complicate the solo, they need to literally create a new game.

 

[Retepeter]

51 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

In the game, the armor has already been weakened by multiplayer changes.
Klei clearly won't want to make the game harder for multiplayer. It's not profitable for them.

And to complicate the solo, they need to literally create a new game.

once again, stop talking about singleplayer here, there's a place for that called the singleplayer forums

[Hungry French]

2 minutes ago, Retepeter said:

once again, stop talking about singleplayer here, there's a place for that called the singleplayer forums

Do you want me to answer a DST question that relates to armor in the DS forum?

[Retepeter]

1 minute ago, Hungry French said:

Do you want me to answer a DST question that relates to armor in the DS forum?

you brought up singleplayer when nobody was talking about it

[Mike23Ua]

36 minutes ago, Retepeter said:

once again, stop talking about singleplayer here, there's a place for that called the singleplayer forums

I don’t think anywhere on DSTs label does it read “Multiplayer Only”

And- even though admit-ably that users posts are a bit over intrusive, they still have a pretty valid point.

In that- If DST is going to let you host worlds with a Maximum Player Count of 1, that game content should properly downscale to provide a Fun & Fair challenge to that solo player.

Ive been playing for the past 6 or so hours, and in that time- I’ve found the ancient p-word station, crafted the deconstruction staff, crafted the star staff, built a HUGE Maze around the Moon Pedestal, Socketed the Yellow Staff into said Pedestal & waited till Full Moon- Failed this event several times- Rolled Back the world every time I failed, Built an even BIGGER Maze of Walls to funnel Werepigs and Hounds through like those toys where you lead the ball to the hole at the center.. Successfully completed said event (with luck) Obtained Moon Staff, Deconstructed Moon Staff- Took Shiny Easter Egg Gem down to Archives, placed on Pedestal with the others- Immediately Regretted placing on pedestal with the others… at the current moment I’m still in said Archives trying not to die fighting a few high health rolling robotic bugs..

And all in an effort just to Unlock Moonstorms & trigger Wild Rifts the intended way.

The TL:DR of this entire conversation is that (currently) the content that Rifts add to the game is too late into the game, after you’ve done the exhausting list of other tasks required to reach that point.

AND.. And- it’s absolutely no secret that this game would be far more enjoyable for solo players if bosses, mobs and events like Moon Stone Siege Hold out- Wasnt so obviously unfairly scaled to Multiplayer.

There may be players out there who enjoy the game having Multiplayer difficulty trying to overcome that ALONE.

But as for me personally: A Million Rollbacks later of pure frustration dying unfairly to swarms of mobs that hit like a truck, I would really enjoy being able to downscale the game to less difficult experience so I can you know… actually ENJOY the content- Without feeling like I need to train for the Olympics and win gold medals in every event in said Olympics, Go to War, barely Survive said War, just to enjoy the rest of what the game has to offer the player.

Currently these robotic Rollie Pollies are being highly annoying (yes I’m aware there’s probably some trick or high powered gear meant to deal with them..) but that’s when I start to recall how DS, Shipwrecked & Hamlet was a far more enjoyable experience then the pure “Torture” I’m putting myself through in trying to play a Multiplayer Designed Game Alone.

Bosses, Mobs & Events died faster in Solo DS.. and when I died, That was my mistake or my lack of skill.. in DST However- When I die I just end up getting Angry that none of the friends I’ve bought the game for enjoy playing DST and the content I’m barely struggling to get through- Would be a billion times easier with just one other player to help out, let alone Five..

[Retepeter]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I don’t think anywhere on DSTs label does it read “Multiplayer Only”

And- even though admit-ably that users posts are a bit over intrusive, they still have a pretty valid point.

In that- If DST is going to let you host worlds with a Maximum Player Count of 1, that game content should properly downscale to provide a Fun & Fair challenge to that solo player.

Ive been playing for the past 6 or so hours, and in that time- I’ve found the ancient p-word station, crafted the deconstruction staff, crafted the star staff, built a HUGE Maze around the Moon Pedestal, Socketed the Yellow Staff into said Pedestal & waited till Full Moon- Failed this event several times- Rolled Back the world every time I failed, Built an even BIGGER Maze of Walls to funnel Werepigs and Hounds through like those toys where you lead the ball to the hole at the center.. Successfully completed said event (with luck) Obtained Moon Staff, Deconstructed Moon Staff- Took Shiny Easter Egg Gem down to Archives, placed on Pedestal with the others- Immediately Regretted placing on pedestal with the others… at the current moment I’m still in said Archives trying not to die fighting a few high health rolling robotic bugs..

And all in an effort just to Unlock Moonstorms & trigger Wild Rifts the intended way.

The TL:DR of this entire conversation is that (currently) the content that Rifts add to the game is too late into the game, after you’ve done the exhausting list of other tasks required to reach that point.

AND.. And- it’s absolutely no secret that this game would be far more enjoyable for solo players if bosses, mobs and events like Moon Stone Siege Hold out- Wasnt so obviously unfairly scaled to Multiplayer.

There may be players out there who enjoy the game having Multiplayer difficulty trying to overcome that ALONE.

But as for me personally: A Million Rollbacks later of pure frustration dying unfairly to swarms of mobs that hit like a truck, I would really enjoy being able to downscale the game to less difficult experience so I can you know… actually ENJOY the content- Without feeling like I need to train for the Olympics and win gold medals in every event in said Olympics, Go to War, barely Survive said War, just to enjoy the rest of what the game has to offer the player.

Currently these robotic Rollie Pollies are being highly annoying (yes I’m aware there’s probably some trick or high powered gear meant to deal with them..) but that’s when I start to recall how DS, Shipwrecked & Hamlet was a far more enjoyable experience then the pure “Torture” I’m putting myself through in trying to play a Multiplayer Designed Game Alone.

Bosses, Mobs & Events died faster in Solo DS.. and when I died, That was my mistake or my lack of skill.. in DST However- When I die I just end up getting Angry that none of the friends I’ve bought the game for enjoy playing DST and the content I’m barely struggling to get through- Would be a billion times easier with just one other player to help out, let alone Five..

I mostly just want this guy to bring up singleplayer and complain about it because people are here to complain and hear complianing about dst, if they wanna complain about ds go to the ds forums

I'm not against mentioning ds altogether, its fine for example when people compare shipwrecked mangrove and dst waterlogged but when it's barely relevant to the topic I feel inclined to believe most people would prefer to not have a comment about it

My problem is completely derailing the conversation to say "uh ds had it differently so dst should have it the same way as ds"

Dst is designed with multiplayer in mind, by choosing to play solo you embrace the difficulty.

This is like saying PvP fps games aren't fun when both teams are filled with bots except your team, you're not playing the game as it was designed, you shouldn't be surprised if it's not as fun as it would be with players

[JustAFlower]

1 hour ago, Hungry French said:

Do you want me to answer a DST question that relates to armor in the DS forum?

It's literally called [Don't Starve Together] General Discussion. It's the sequel of Don't Starve, (two-get-her hehe).

[_zwb]

18 minutes ago, Retepeter said:

Dst is designed with multiplayer in mind, by choosing to play solo you embrace the difficulty.

If only they tell you before buying the game...... Oh well, I guess giving players information is not uncompromising enough for the game

[Mike23Ua]

38 minutes ago, Retepeter said:

I mostly just want this guy to bring up singleplayer and complain about it because people are here to complain and hear complianing about dst, if they wanna complain about ds go to the ds forums

I'm not against mentioning ds altogether, its fine for example when people compare shipwrecked mangrove and dst waterlogged but when it's barely relevant to the topic I feel inclined to believe most people would prefer to not have a comment about it

My problem is completely derailing the conversation to say "uh ds had it differently so dst should have it the same way as ds"

Dst is designed with multiplayer in mind, by choosing to play solo you embrace the difficulty.

This is like saying PvP fps games aren't fun when both teams are filled with bots except your team, you're not playing the game as it was designed, you shouldn't be surprised if it's not as fun as it would be with players

It’s just maddening to me that people want nerfs to the games armors when I’ve been sitting in front of my Tv for at least four hours trying not DIE to content that’s clearly designed and intended for multiple players to participate in.

You ever had 3 Ancient Sentrypedes troll the Archives Puzzle so you can’t complete it? That’s the current BS I’m dealing with.. and I know damn well that Klei intended me to bring friends along to help out, but fighting just ONE of these bugs Solo let alone Three of them teaming up on you.. is a pain in the backside, I’ve burned through 2 football helmets, and Eye Mask & a Set of Marble Armor.. and I still die needing to roll the world back.

Therefore, I don’t feel like the games armors need any nerfing, I mean I guess maybe some higher tier armors? But if I remember right: Klei intentionally cut the crafting cost of Marble Armor down from 12 to 6 so players can craft 2 sets for the price of one?

[grm9]

2 hours ago, Hungry French said:

In the game, the armor has already been weakened by multiplayer changes.
Klei clearly won't want to make the game harder for multiplayer. It's not profitable for them.

And to complicate the solo, they need to literally create a new game.

 

how is that related to my message considering i was talking about not needing to

11 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

nerf enemies

 

[arubaro]

16 hours ago, Shosuko said:

How can you possibly attribute so much importance to this?  Seriously, on what basis do you think a new player would even notice this change?  They will die without armor, find armor and get more durability, and then need to heal to restore health.  In what situation do you think a new player NEEDS to tank through 2 football helmets or they will quit the game?

is that hard to understand that for new players healing is one of the harder things to learn?

did you played with guides or mods to show stars? did you have amnesia? because i really remember my experience learning the game and witness how all my friends had and still having problems with healing and insanity

even if a noob wears armor they lose a lot of hp due to not knowing how to kite and as a experience player i dont want to grind more healing in my early rush. I already play with "more damage receive" setting, noobs dont need that, there would be more people dropping the game

58 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

In that- If DST is going to let you host worlds with a Maximum Player Count of 1, that game content should properly downscale to provide a Fun & Fair challenge to that solo player

then downscale loot so 1 player doesnt get all the loot by killing an easy boss while a couple of players needs to repeat the fight...

seems like you have more fun in the forum than fighting "super long and grindy" bosses...mwanwhile people with less hours beat all bosses in less than a year, that doesnt seem long and grindy