Planar Mechanics Are Horrible.

[Juanasdf]

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

What makes you think they would have needed to increase their health?  Since planar weapons do as much damage as normal weapons, the only time they have more effective health is the first time you interact with them b/c you don't have planar type.  Once you switch to planar weapons and they no longer have extra health...  They could have just released them with the health they had but no planar BS and the only difference is their new equips would have been enticing for their perks like bouncing, repairing, etc rather than being forced to use them through arbitrary damage typing in a game that has no damage typing lol

That's exactly the opposite of everything I said...

Planar mechanic is implemented TO AVOID having mobs with x10 HP and equipment with x10 damage BECAUSE they want to avoid you oneshoting the mobs that are already present in the game. This way they can implement new equipment that is both

a) still as good as a dark sword vs normal enemies

b) the first tier of weapons vs this new content

And the good thing is, if they want to add new planar equipment that is better, all they need to do is give it more planar dmg and less regular dmg. Eventually maybe we'll get a weapon that deals a full 68 planar dmg, so still as good as a dark sword vs normal mobs and yet it'd be the best weapon for planar enemies.

Same idea applies to armor.

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

okay so planar will hit you hard but then you get planar defense and its all k again...

I'm gonna use the same idea you gave. Yes planar hits hard and you get planar defense and its all k again...

Same goes for rain and an umbrella, normal armor and attacks, night and light sources, hunger and FOOD.

Of course you'll need to fix the problem of no planar defense, it's like fighthing armorless vs a spider (yes, i know its stunlockable i just mean dmg values). You'd need to heal every 2 hits in a fight versus every common mob otherwise.

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

This is why its all artificial.  Take planar out and most of this content doesn't actually change.  Its all an arbitrary set of hoops to jump through to pretend we're in a higher difficulty tier when really we just do 1 little thing to unlock planar and its all the same (except like, we have only a few weapons compared to before.)

1) If you feel like this is artificial idk what to tell you, to me it feels as natural as switching from an axe to a hambat. It's progression

2) The updates are only starting, of course we're only going to have a few weapons.

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, Juanasdf said:

That's exactly the opposite of everything I said...

Planar mechanic is implemented TO AVOID having mobs with x10 HP and equipment with x10 damage BECAUSE they want to avoid you oneshoting the mobs that are already present in the game. This way they can implement new equipment that is both

 

eh, why would they have to give them x10 HP if they didn't add planar?  All they'd do is release them with exactly the health they have now, and the full arsenal of weapons we already have would work, and the new weapons like Scythe, staff, bomb etc would add new elements.  I mean fr you take planar out and the new mobs and items are all still useful and interesting.  Planar is like, the dumb addition that really sets the whole thing on the wrong path.  None of these needs planar, nothing needs 10x health just b/c planar doesn't exist.

This isn't progression.  We already have a whole spread of weapons.  We don't need "progression" like this, it costs far too much.  What we really need is just a pass on balance to bring some of the slightly underpowered options into focus like Thul club, Batbat, etc.

[Juanasdf]

21 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

why would they have to give them x10 HP if they didn't add planar?  All they'd do is release them with exactly the health they have now

x10 dmg was just a number, not to be taken literally.

But here's the answer: Because they need to add progression otherwise you wouldn't feel enticed to activate the rifts.

They can't just add normal HP mobs because you already have the best equipment (dmg wise) in the game. Why would I want to deal with waves of brightshades for a reward that is just "meh", considering the amount of weapons we have as you say. (Specially since lategame you'd have a pig farm for hambats and a mountain of thule crowns.)

We'd be stuck at this level of damage for niche equipment that instead of doing A: infinite durability (like a hambat) does B: repairable.

So again, you add planar to give the player a new type of progression, without actually increasing damage...

As for equipment balance, yes, they can and should revise that, but maybe leave it for one of those "core game enhancement updates" they announced in the roadmap. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep adding weapon variety...

EDIT: I know that rifts don't only bring weapons but also tools and armor, I was focusing on weapons since the topic is about planar dmg.

[Antynomity]

6 hours ago, Juanasdf said:

Snip

Yeahhh, no, this 'new type of progression' is the worst thing they could have done, if they want to keep THIS gear in check just make them the best options for the faction war, most mobs in the game are not aligned, instead of having these stupid and anti-player calculations just so the new weapons have an arbitrary reason to exist.

[lenship2]

i just like planar cuz it means i have to do more complicated calculations for damage and effective health :>

[Yuuko]

10 hours ago, Juanasdf said:

x10 dmg was just a number, not to be taken literally.

But here's the answer: Because they need to add progression otherwise you wouldn't feel enticed to activate the rifts.

 

Funny b/c we never needed anything like this before...  Monster health has actually not really gone up over time, and new and interesting equips and monsters have been added without needing 10x or even 2x health or damage.

We don't need to feel enticed to activate the rifts, they are only optional right now.  afaik the intended design is that defeating AFW and CC will automatically activate them so enticement is not needed.  People will do them because the stuff afterwards, enlightened crown, bone armor, and really all of the planar stuff even if planar was deleted would all be valuable enough to still complete these bosses and activate the rifts.

[Cheggf]

15 hours ago, Juanasdf said:

x10 dmg was just a number, not to be taken literally.

But here's the answer: Because they need to add progression otherwise you wouldn't feel enticed to activate the rifts.

They can't just add normal HP mobs because you already have the best equipment (dmg wise) in the game. Why would I want to deal with waves of brightshades for a reward that is just "meh", considering the amount of weapons we have as you say. (Specially since lategame you'd have a pig farm for hambats and a mountain of thule crowns.)

We'd be stuck at this level of damage for niche equipment that instead of doing A: infinite durability (like a hambat) does B: repairable.

So again, you add planar to give the player a new type of progression, without actually increasing damage...

As for equipment balance, yes, they can and should revise that, but maybe leave it for one of those "core game enhancement updates" they announced in the roadmap. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep adding weapon variety...

EDIT: I know that rifts don't only bring weapons but also tools and armor, I was focusing on weapons since the topic is about planar dmg.

The rifts are so bad & unfun that people want to avoid them, so you need to add a "number bigger" mechanic to encourage people to activate them. But the "number bigger" mechanic isn't actually number bigger, and is only number bigger against things that happen after you open the rifts. Why would you feel like you need to open the rifts to get planar damage if there is no planar defense before the rifts? This idea makes no sense.

[Theukon-dos]

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Nah, give this a read, its much more on the point.  To think that power fantasy is just being god moded is a poor understanding and leaves a lot on the table.  To really capture the power fantasy you have to see what vectors the players can experience and express their power through.  One of the power fantasies of Mine Craft is allowing you to sculpt the world.  Any vector that gives power and agency to players over the games is the basis of that game's power fantasy.

https://bottomfeeder.substack.com/p/the-heart-of-gaming-is-the-power

Ah yes, the classic "99 papers that say something is wrong, 1 paper that says it's right"

 

Now, I will say that this is a very well-written article that does an excellent job of examining the reasons we play games. However, like you, the article makes the mistake of taking the phrase "Power Fantasy" at its most literal, rather than what people actually mean when they say it. 

Yes, video games are a fantasy where the player is given power. That much is true. But the phrase "Power Fantasy" has meaning beyond just the definitions of each word. The phrase first picked up popularity in the Anime and Manga community to describe self-insert stories where the main character is an absolute looser who "Displays an unreasonable amount of dominance", as some put it. 

The definition has broadened a bit as the term's entered more public use, hence my description of it as "Being the coolest guy in the room and making this everyone else's problem". But either way, that's what people know "power fantasy" as. 

 

If you ask any random shmuck on the street what their favorite "Power fantasy game" is. Nobody's going to say Stardew Valley, nobody's going to say Mario, and Nobody's going to say DST. 

 

Ignoring all the actual context around the term Power Fantasy to instead focus on the most basic definition of the words in it is, quite frankly, just plain arrogant. Everyone knows what the term means, and you can't just say it means something else to prove a point. 

[Yuuko]

6 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Now, I will say that this is a very well-written article that does an excellent job of examining the reasons we play games. However, like you, the article makes the mistake of taking the phrase "Power Fantasy" at its most literal, rather than what people actually mean when they say it. 

 

Its not the most literal, it is the most fundamental and really the more important one.  The most literal would probably be as you describe, which is the first use - but the first use is kinda dumb b/c it is less applicable being so limited and thus less useful.

This term has evolved in game design to mean much more, and since we are talking about games and game design I think it is much more appropriate to use the more fitting definition.  Without it we don't understand why games like Stardew Valley and DST attract a strong playerbase.  The power fantasy is nearly universal in ALL games, and in all human desires.  There are different vectors of power though, not everyone just wants to punch a hole through a wall or make another person look dumb.

"In sims I'm not killing anyone" means no power fantasy?  But you are able to make millions of dollars selling herbs from your garden, endlessly building onto your dream property that is in a nice nature filled area, with only minimal problems like telling your character to take their pants off before they piss.  Minecraft lets you terraform the world unlike anything you could do irl.  Doing these things can make a person feel like GOD in game compared to the real world.  They are undeniably power fantasies.

DST has always had a power fantasy, that is why it has been successful.  We don't need MMO style grind, stat and skill progression added to have it.

When you figure out a puzzle you feel empowered.  Many games are based around this like Bejeweled, cut the rope, etc.  People feel smart when they solve a puzzle, it causes a dopamine rush same as many other exciting things, it makes them feel powerful.

DST is more like solving a puzzle.  Night kills you => you figure out how to produce light, you beat the night.  Full moon spawns werepigs and they kill you => you avoid during full moon (or run / fight / etc.)  You hear Deerclops spawn and smash your base => you learn to leave base when they roar + later learn to kill her.

In every case knowledge and puzzle solving is the first layer of power fantasy.  This is the primary reason people play any survival type game where your character is typically at a disadvantage to the world.  The stats are against you, so how do you win?  You figure out the solution to the puzzle.  Humans are natural problem solvers, providing us with a deeply engrained sense of power.

There are 2 second layer power fantasies in DST.  High combat skill ie raid bosses which require puzzle solving AND mechanical prowess which includes speed runners and any technical players.  Terraforming the world ie megabasers (this includes not just decorative, but also auto-farms, pure cheese bosses, etc.)

We play DST because these mechanics make us feel powerful = power fantasy.

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Its not the most literal, it is the most fundamental and really the more important one.  The most literal would probably be as you describe, which is the first use - but the first use is kinda dumb b/c it is less applicable being so limited and thus less useful.

This term has evolved in game design to mean much more, and since we are talking about games and game design I think it is much more appropriate to use the more fitting definition.  Without it we don't understand why games like Stardew Valley and DST attract a strong playerbase.  The power fantasy is nearly universal in ALL games, and in all human desires.  There are different vectors of power though, not everyone just wants to punch a hole through a wall or make another person look dumb.

Quite frankly, I'd say the opposite. Your definition is so broad, so all-encompassing, that it doesn't actually tell us anything about why someone plays games, because it applies to every single game ever made. 

I play Stardew valley because of it's relaxing atmosphere, simple but satisfying gameplay loop, and likable characters. 

I like Graveyard keeper because it throws a dozen different tasks at the player, many of which have a limited, but repeating window of time to fulfil, which makes the game oddly engrossing to play. 

I like ULTRAKILL because of it's high speed and cathartic action, along with having so much mechanical depth that I can get a Perfect rank in every level and still feel like there's more to learn. 

I like Armored Core 6 because of it's endearing characters, high-paced action, immense customization in both how you look and how you fight, and how the game makes you feel like the worst person to ever exist. 

 

To simply boil all of these games and every other game ever made down to "it's a power fantasy" does nothing to tell someone what the appeal of a specific game actually is. You may as well say people like music because "Sound is nice", or like movies because "they have pretty colors". 

Meanwhile, my definition means that if someone says they like God of War because "it's a power-fantasy", then that alone gives me a good idea of what the appeal is even without knowing much else.

 

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

DST has always had a power fantasy, that is why it has been successful.  We don't need MMO style grind, stat and skill progression added to have it.

When you figure out a puzzle you feel empowered.  Many games are based around this like Bejeweled, cut the rope, etc.  People feel smart when they solve a puzzle, it causes a dopamine rush same as many other exciting things, it makes them feel powerful.

DST is more like solving a puzzle.  Night kills you => you figure out how to produce light, you beat the night.  Full moon spawns werepigs and they kill you => you avoid during full moon (or run / fight / etc.)  You hear Deerclops spawn and smash your base => you learn to leave base when they roar + later learn to kill her.

In every case knowledge and puzzle solving is the first layer of power fantasy.  This is the primary reason people play any survival type game where your character is typically at a disadvantage to the world.  The stats are against you, so how do you win?  You figure out the solution to the puzzle.  Humans are natural problem solvers, providing us with a deeply engrained sense of power.

There are 2 second layer power fantasies in DST.  High combat skill ie raid bosses which require puzzle solving AND mechanical prowess which includes speed runners and any technical players.  Terraforming the world ie megabasers (this includes not just decorative, but also auto-farms, pure cheese bosses, etc.)

We play DST because these mechanics make us feel powerful = power fantasy.

So wait, does anything that causes a dopamine rush count as a power fantasy now? I got a donut from the store, is that a power fantasy? Again, your definition of "power fantasy" is so broad that it doesn't actually say anything and you need to spend several paragraphs defining your definition.

And if the appeal of the game can be boiled down to "it's a power fantasy", then what's stopping Klei from adding tons of other power fantasy elements? Why not add the ability to tame bosses? add a dating sim minigame where you can try and get on Charlie's good side? A mode where all the survival aspects are turned off and it's just Reap What You Sow: The Videogame? Under your definition, all those count as "power fantasy" in one way or another. So surely they'd be good additions to the game, right?

No. Because having a word that defines everything, ironically, doesn't define anything at all.

[Neu7ral]

On 9/3/2023 at 9:02 PM, goblinball said:

DST has always been a power fantasy.

DS and DST are definetly not power fantasy, at least not for me, and following the four pillars of the game and it's early versions of DST, it was far away of power fantasy, the most closest thing that made me felt I was the greatest walking human alive is getting the buffs foods with Wanda but that's it.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Neu7ral said:

DS and DST are definetly not power fantasy, at least not for me, and following the four pillars of the game and it's early versions of DST, it was far away of power fantasy, the most closest thing that made me felt I was the greatest walking human alive is getting the buffs foods with Wanda but that's it.

You get that feeling when you have 60 warrior merms following you too. What are the bosses going to do? Hit one merm at a time? Or, dieand miss before then if they have aoe.

[Neu7ral]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

You get that feeling when you have 60 warrior merms following you too. What are the bosses going to do? Hit one merm at a time? Or, dieand miss before then if they have aoe.

Lmao you're right, too bad I don't like Wurt, sorry.