Wormwood skill tree overhaul ideas

[Mortalbane]

This is an updated version of my "Wormwood skill tree overhaul" post from beta
I know that some of the mentioned features are going to change a little bit,
this post aims to squeeze between the end of beta and the new changes.
Also, just for the record, i'm not a big fan of skill trees for DST. But since we've set foot on that pass, i'd really like this opportunity to be used to bring some balance between the characters, to expand the kit of the less-favored ones and to make characters better at what they do.

My opinion on Wormwood
Currently Wormwood has one of the biggest downsides in the game (no healing from food), while having no major upsides to justify it.
Keep in mind that he came from Hamlet, where he was so OP that he can be considered an "easy mode" - he ignored at least two major threats, and for that he paid with no food healing.He came unchanged for the most part, but we don't have all that stuff from Hamlet here in DST.
Known as "the farm guy", Wormwood is supposed to be the king of the farms, yet Wickerbottom laughs at his face. Not being able to enjoy a fresh juicy dragonpie to its fullest, he gives me Wes vibes, a poor guy who makes the life of others better, but not his own. And his animated short supports those vibes. (his own short, not the last one)
His skill tree indeed gives him buffs, but i think the direction is strange. No useful farming buffs, but instead combat buffs and summoning pets.
Well, i'll take it, but i really wish Klei would take a look at my farming branch suggestions.

Current skill (tree) issues
Exited to try out the new Wormwood's skill tree, i launched a fresh world and tried to figure out which skills am i going to take.
So... do i go for the photosynthesis? Its regen and blooming skills don't seem worth taking.
Maybe, plant crafting? Nah, i'll get all those plants without wasting skill points.
Mushroom branch? Well, what are mushrooms for me, if i regulate sanity easily, and red caps are just carrots. Grow mushrooms just for my friends and feel like Wes, i guess. Sleep cloud sounds nice, but i can't even grow lunar mushrooms. (i'm glad this is getting fixed now)
Probably only bee-friend and bramble traps are worth taking, though there is a trap at the end of the branch.
The affinity perks spark my interest, but until I get them the situation seems sad.
I don't even become a better farmer with this tree. So, i guess now i'm more of an indirect fighter with the traps.
Sigh.
*sad Wormwood noises*


So, i tried to make perks more impactful and group them together a bit better.

Those are just suggestions, the way of thinking, which in my opinion would make Wormwood better reflect his identity.

(if devs don't want petals, fine by me. I wouldn't mind petals, since WW has a flower on his head)



Base kit

• Blooming stages: 1, 2, 3, full bloom, 3, 2, 1  ->  1, 2, 3, full bloom
• When the full bloom ends, you drop several petals
• Added what Seed Sleuth perk does - see what seed will grow into
• Compost Wrap recipe requires compost (hopefully instead if Nitre)

Bottom left branch - full bloom and utility
Fertilizer familiarity
- all fertilizers are a little tiny bit better at everything they do
(they are applied to your face faster, heal you better, speed up blooming more, add more nutrients to the farm soil. The main idea behind this starting perk is to mention what those things do, so that inexperienced players would know. And have a nice tiny buff to all that)
replaces Seed Sleuth

Growth spurt
- reach full bloom faster
- stay in full bloom longer
- drop more petals when the full bloom ends
requires Fertilizer Familiarity

Fertilized frenzy ( or Chemical romance)
blooming caused by growth formula -
- full bloom is reached quicker and lasts longer
- further increases movement speed and hunger drain
requires Growth spurt (and stacks with it)

Enticing blossom
when you are in full bloom -
- butterflies and bees fly to you and sit near you
- butterflies and bees can be picked with bare hands if they don't move
- bees don't attack you unless you attack first
- Lord of the flies is more likely to appear, if the Friendly fly is killed
- Fruit flies prioritize you over crops
- Friendly fruit fly prioritizes you over crops, prolonging your blooming
requires Fertilized frenzy

(often people say than WW's tending is good, but since we got a Friendly Fly - i disagree. Everyone has automated tending. That's why i suggest new functions for the Friendly Fly, while also combining all the insect perks in one themed skill. According to my suggestion, with the Fly you'll be blooming all you want, but if you want more from your blooming, you have to use Growth Formula)


Photosynthesis
- when under strong sunlight, regenerate health slowly  while in full bloom 
- regeneration is stronger when you are wet
requires Growth spurt

Tropical plant
-  when in full bloom  when wet, gain increased protection from overheating and fire resistance
- hunger drains slower when you are wet
- you dry slower
requires Photosynthesis


Top left branch - farming
Farmhand
- tend crops in larger radius (who needs it when you can walk closer)
- harvest farm plants faster
- harvest grass/saplings/bushes/etc faster (why Woodie needs this?)
requires Fertilizer Familiarity

Farmer
- plants harvested by you (any plant in the game) have a chance to yield more
- fertilizers are more effective for crops
requires Farmhand

Seasoned farmer
- crops can accumulate more stress and still grow into giants
- crops tended by you (manually or via full bloom) grow faster and don't care about season
requires Farmer

Life finds a way
- plants replanted by you are fertilized
- grass/saplings/bushes/etc grow in winter, but at reduced speed
requires Farmhand

Blooming life force
when you are in full bloom -
- plants near you recover from withering (as if you re-fertilized them after many harvests, or ice flingomatic effect in summer)
- you have a chance to spawn a ripe grass/sapling/berry bush as you walk over the appropriate turf 
requires Life finds its way


Top right branch - mushrooms
Mushroom muncher
- eating a raw mushroom restores a tiny bit of health over time
- eating Mushy Cake restores some health over time
replaces Butterfly Friend

(as WW can regulate his sanity easily, i just feel like there could be a tiny bonus to mushroom growing. They probably still won't be considered a go-to healing, but it can help new players, and goes in line with combat branches)

Mushroom mastery
- mushrooms planted in Mushroom Planter by you grow faster
requires Mushroom Muncher

Mushroom multiplier
- mushrooms planted in Mushroom planter by you produce higher yield
requires Mushroom Mastery

Moon mushroom mania
- allows you to transform any mushroom/mushtree into its lunar variant
- eating a raw Moon Shroom releases sleep-inducing spore cloud
requires Mushroom Multiplier

(i feel like transforming is more interesting than growing, and is more in line with WW's affinity perks)

Poor sap
- same as it is
requires Mushroom Mastery

Fun guy
- learn to craft the Funcap without a blueprint
- removes the Funcap +50% spoil effect
- removes the Funcap wetness resistance
- Red Funcap deals a bit of damage to mobs that attack you when worn during the day
- Green Funcap has a chance to panic the mobs that attack you when worn during dusk
- Blue Funcap has a chance to heal you a little when you get hit during the night
- craft a Moon Shroom Funcap variant from Moon Shrooms, which has minor sanity regeneration and a chance to put the attacking mob to sleep when you have high sanity. Prevents the enlightenment-based (natural) Gestalts from attacking you
- learn to craft the Funguy Cap from the Funcap blueprint, which acts as all RGB Funcaps depending on the time of day, and as the Moon Cap when you are at high sanity / under Enlightenment / under the full moon
requires Poor Sap

(yeah, this is basically an item rework, but i just feel that i would be a nice cherry on top of the mushy cake, and a nice headwear to go along with the bramble husk)


Bottom right branch - combat
Flower power
when in full bloom -
- gain a bit of damage
- increases healing and regeneration from all sources by a little bit
requires Mushroom Muncher

Bark at the wrong tree
- gain minor built-in armor
- any buff to the Bull Kelp Stalk (damage, durability, spoil time)
(idk why the Stalk even exists, so why not give it some purpose. Also, Wormwood is a plant, and when plants need some sturdiness and protection, they grow bark. Well, it's just a thought)
requires Flower Power

Bramble husk enjoyer =)
- bramble husk gains more durability, or damage, or both
- bramble husk can be repaired with living logs
requires Bark at the wrong tree

Lureplant friend
- craft lureplants
- lureplants crafted by you have more health
- open lureplants like chests to retrieve items they ate but not yet digested, or put items in
requires Flower power

(the chest function would skyrocket some farming setups, but i think lureplants for wormwood are mainly a combat tool, and then farming tool)

Bramble trap specialist
- same as it is
requires Lureplant friend


Some comments
- for the record, i don't like slapping move speed, light, and pets onto every other character to buff them. For example, for Wormwood i'd easily trade his blooming move speed and lunar cultivator perks for my farming suggestions
- i removed most plant crafting skills, because i don't see their point. The world is filled with plants, and crafting only promotes turtling in your base and not seeing the game content. I really like the animations though
- i could have included some downsides in the perks which balance things, but Klei doesn't do it, so i don't too
- now the left branch is for utility and farming, and the right better suits for combat, but there can be other mixes
- husk and trap upgrades are not connected, opposing to the Klei's new changes, cause they represent two slightly different combat styles (kinda)

[Copyafriend]

man some players dont know how to be appreciative

[Mike23Ua]

Unless Klei wants to outright shock me, they’re not going to change the way the character plays by giving him a completely revamped skill tree. 

[Mortalbane]

29 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

man some players dont know how to be appreciative

Yeah, the character was brought from Hamlet without any adjustments.
Now he's basically "i don't need a hoe, and for that i pay with no healing from food"
I look at the skill tree and don't know what to choose, cuz almost nothing seems appealing
What's not to appreciate =)

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Unless Klei wants to outright shock me, they’re not going to change the way the character plays by giving him a completely revamped skill tree. 

Perhaps they won't. My job is to suggest =)

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Yeah, the character was brought from Hamlet without any adjustments.
Now he's basically "i don't need a hoe, and for that i pay with no healing from food"
I look at the skill tree and don't know what to choose, cuz almost nothing seems appealing
What's not to appreciate =

Yeah no. This has gotta be rage bait because of how ignorant it is.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Yeah, the character was brought from Hamlet without any adjustments.
Now he's basically "i don't need a hoe, and for that i pay with no healing from food"
I look at the skill tree and don't know what to choose, cuz almost nothing seems appealing
What's not to appreciate =)

Perhaps they won't. My job is to suggest =)

Have you perhaps considered maybe you just don't like Wormwood?

[Mortalbane]

17 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Yeah no. This has gotta be rage bait because of how ignorant it is.

16 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Have you perhaps considered maybe you just don't like Wormwood?

This is simply my opinion. I like Wormwood, but i believe that he needs a buff or adjustments, and skill trees are a good opportunity.
I have listed what i don't like about the current state of the character, while also providing ways to fix it.
If you have different opinions, feel free to write them, instead of devaluating other people's opinions or suggestions.

[Valase]

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Wormwood needs a buff
Currently Wormwood has one of the biggest downsides in the game (no healing from food), while having no major upsides to justify it.

I don't think that I will need to read anything after that.

And about the rest of your post, I don't think that those changes are healthy for the game nor the character.

[Mortalbane]

5 minutes ago, Valase said:

I don't think that I will need to read anything after that.

And about the rest of your post, I don't think that those changes are healthy for the game nor the character.

Could you elaborate?

[Copyafriend]

Okay. I'll break down what I like about wormwood, and you can take it or leave it.

Spoilers: I think of wormwood as one of if not the most complete (it has nothing to do with relative strength) characters in the game, with interesting upsides and a meaningful downside.

first off: Living logs are free.

This means: mushroom planters, darkswords, bat bats, and some other miscellaneous magic items, are comparatively cheap and more or less free to use.

This means I reccomend rushing for the shadow manipulator immediately, and always use dark swords, and use bat bats as often as you can manage. mushroom planters are fun, but its up to personal taste there (i like stockpiling green mushrooms for even more sanity manipulation, and filler is always nice)

secondly: Sanity is extremely easy to manipulate. note: I said manipulate. That means he can raise and lower his sanity more or less at will, with any plantable object providing moderate sanity when planted, even a stack of pinecones is a high amount of sanity restoration if you so chose to use it that way. you can also chop trees to lower it if you want low sanity, or just eat some raw monster meat that you happen to have laying around. This also means that anything that would otherwise drain sanity or be a nuisance like the night armor or bat bat, are a lot more viable without hassle.

Thirdly: His "downside": His downside is also an upside. Anything in the game that is poison is completely free to eat, so monster meat and red mushrooms are now just snacks that you can chow down on at any point. This doesn't outweigh the downside portion where he needs to heal primarily with items, but its absolutely a significant part of his kit, it also allows you to use things like monster meat to lower your sanity for that sweet nightmare fuel.

Forth: bramble husk and bramble trap are AOE damage, something very few characters have any access too, this allows him to handle most swarm monsters with ease only surpassed by a wendy with an abigail at night. bramble traps are MORE effective than hound traps despite doing less damage, as you're going to hit more than one hound at a time, actually beating them out in efficiency, not to mention being absurdly cheap. in combination with blooming, wormwood is actually a VERY viable combat character in a way that surprises a lot of people.

fifth: Blooming is really cool and provides a passive speed boost, one of the strongest abilities a character can have, not to mention it leads you to gather resources in a unique way in the early game, while also constantly being mindful of how much more "blooming" fertilizer I have, and when I'll need to stock up.

sixth: his healing with rot and manure is very interesting, and leads to a lot of healing passively accruing over time from unused light bulbs and uneaten food. I often will find that something has gone stale, and instead of worrying, I move it to a chest so it can finish rotting and I can get a new use out of it. This is something that may be mostly flavor, but is very fun allowing me to fully utilize even "trash" that accumulates. Sleeping is an easy and cheap alternative for when I'm only mildly injured (or photosynthesis now)

seventh: it promotes an actually different playstyle. Something that almost no other character manages to do. every other character just accumulates armor, cooks some food right before a fight, then kills the boss. I actually have to go out of my way to: farm spiders, or gather reeds, or build up enough nitre to fully utilize my rot and manure with compost wraps, or farm batalisks for bat bats, or...  you get the picture. not healing through food leads me to farm for materials I would otherwise completely ignore in favor of the easier healing methods

Eighth: while only visual, wormwood has by far the most interesting skins in the game, with blooming completely changing his look dramatically in a way not seen in any other characters, even the other transforming characters like wolfgang or wurt.

nine: wormwood has affinity with plants, which allows you to just bring a leafy bulb around with you if you so desire, you may have to wait a bit, but eyeplants are more than enough backup against hounds or single dens of spiders if you don't want to use a bramble husk.

Ten: farming is actually FUN as wormwood, its not as meaningful as other characters, but being able to passively tend to plants and plant things instantly, and also use any leftover seeds for free adds up to an overall enjoyable experience, and allows for a definite supportive role for my plant boy.

And theres more minor things that I could talk about, and I'm aware that I DIDNT get into the skill tree, but I don't need to, wormwood was included in this skill tree lineup because he was a character who didn't need anything extra. While wolfgang only did damage (which fell off in the endgame) and woodie was terrible overall, wormwood has TONS of tools that provide a lot of interesting use all throughout the game. and he STILL got an upgrade for post rift content.

[Picklesaurus]

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Sleep cloud sounds nice, but i can't even grow lunar mushrooms.

You'll be able to grow them on mushplanters next week.

The WW skilltree coming next week looks pretty good, at least from what it looks like I'm satisfied about it. It seems impactiful , has enough synergy, makes his crafts a little better, all around a pretty good aditions and improvement to Wormwood. I can't see how this is not good, I think I'll enjoy it a lot.

[Mortalbane]

13 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

You'll be able to grow them on mushplanters next week.

Yeah, i saw it, and i've said about it in the beginning of my post.
I like the changes, they certainly are a step in the right direction.
I just have different suggestions, and a lot of them =) 

[Mortalbane]

25 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Okay. I'll break down what I like about wormwood, and you can take it or leave it.

All the things you say are true. Well, almost.
Spoiler - there are other opinions beside yours. So take it or leave it.

First of all, if he is so complete, why add new features, like plant crafting or summoning saladmanders. The character evolves, and i simply suggest features too.

Second, maybe we should start talking relative strength in DST, because it's not a singleplayer game anymore.

Third, living logs are nice, but i can easily get them with other characters too. Even easier, cuz healing WW is harder than fighting a treeguard.

Fourth, sanity manipulation is exactly the point why i think mushrooms are pretty much useless for WW, and suggest adding healing for them with skills, even a tiny one.

Fifth, his "downside" doesn't need quotation marks. A farmer who can't enjoy dragonpie's healing - why would i even want to be a farmer then? Why should i like that i can eat monster meats or red caps, when people around eat dragon pies?
He should and can heal with fertilizers, but i just feel that it's not enough. I'd suggest making them more like Wortox's souls - food would give less hunger and doesn't heal WW, but fertilizers could feed a little and heal a little more.
In Hamlet he could outright ignore two major threats, and that was his "upside", but those threats aren't in DST.

Traps needed a buff, and they got it. I hope the husk will get a good buff as well.
But aside from that, bees, lureplant crafting, and affinity perks, the skill tree currently has nothing to offer. Why add the tree at all then? Where are the options, what are the "builds"?
That is why i try to suggest different things, at least to show a different way of thinking.

Sixth, blooming move speed is great, but tell it to WX, who can run faster AND eat dragonpies. And he is a robot, by the way.

Seventh, go heal with rot and sleep during a boss fight, i'll watch =)

Eights, with the Friendly Fruit fly the only WW's farming advantage is not using a hoe. Which is great, but not enough. Especially since Wickerbottom exists in the game.


So, to summarize, Wormwood needs a buff, and his skill tree is lacking, especially compared to Woodie's, for example. Wolfgang's tree is boring and one-sided, and i have another suggestion post about it.
And i'm glad that WW is slowly getting buffs with yet more changes.
But i think that there is still room for improvement, and that those trees can bring new features and make steps towards balancing characters relatively to each other.
Will Klei do that or not, we will eventually see. My job is just to say my opinion and offer suggestions, so that's what i do.

[Copyafriend]

4 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

All the things you say are true. Well, almost.
Spoiler - there are other opinions beside yours. So take it or leave it.

oooohh sassy for someone who is "trying out" wormwood, but yes I am aware there are other opinions, I was more stating you can take or leave MY opinions.

 

6 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

First of all, if he is so complete, why add new features, like plant crafting or summoning saladmanders. The character evolves, and i simply suggest features too.

Because every character is getting additional features? I mean I feel this is pretty obvious, if everyone is getting something, why not let wormwood have more plant friends, it's been suggested many times for him to tame saladmanders or something similar. this isn't some kinda gotcha moment, I was saying that you're suggesting features when his "features" got reworked more than every other character already, is getting a second round of reworks, and you're trying to redesign all of it again as if klei is just on "wormwood duty". they've got other stuff going on and aren't going to overhaul it this much.

8 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Second, maybe we should start talking relative strength in DST, because it's not a singleplayer game anymore.

no?

I mean it's not a single player game but it's also NOT a competitive game. wormwood provides a lot of benefits in multiplayer and less in single player. talking about his solo benefits alone is pretty short sighted. Secondly many wormwood players (me included) prefer a character with an interesting downside. I've played wes unironically, but stopped because his challenge is always tedium.

Wormwood struggles in combat because of his downside, that doesn't make him a bad character, and talking "relative strength" doesn't mean much outside of combat in this survival sandbox game. Basically what I'm saying is you're being a bit reductive by complaining about wormwood being " weak" this isn't a roguelike it's a sandbox game, sometimes players like their characters to not be the "I hit hard" guy, and simplifying everyone into that... weakens the game design by pushing an unhealthy mentality of "if it's not strong it's bad"

13 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Third, living logs are nice, but i can easily get them with other characters too. Even easier, cuz healing WW is harder than fighting a treeguard

you can get them fairly regularly as other characters, but not as well as wormwood. But it was honestly a minor upside in my opinion.

 

15 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Fourth, sanity manipulation is exactly the point why i think mushrooms are pretty much useless for WW, and suggest adding healing for them with skills, even a tiny one.

green mushrooms for LOWERING your sanity you silly goose, sometimes you wanna go insane instantly and not chop down 10 trees for it. healing with mushrooms kinda trivializes his downside (which the people who actually like wormwood already kinda play him for) it's cool for you to not like his downside, but don't ruin it for the rest of us.

17 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Fifth, his "downside" doesn't need quotation marks. A farmer who can't enjoy dragonpie's healing - why would i even want to be a farmer then? Why should i like that i can eat monster meats or red caps,

Because monster meat is extremely abundant if you fight for more than ten seconds, it kinda is a whole alternative playstyle that the more experienced wormwood players love, instead of farming, some wormwood players just kill things and eat whatever they kill immediately because nothing can really hurt them, sanity is easily regained, food is almost always gained, and health isn't affected.

 

I know you're new to wormwood but try to read into what I'm saying: wormwood isn't a farmer unless you want to farm. many wormwoods don't I typically don't unless I have a few players I wanna support, or if I just feel like farming.

 

25 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

He should and can heal with fertilizers, but i just feel that it's not enough. I'd suggest making them more like Wortox's souls - food would give less hunger and doesn't heal WW, but fertilizers could feed a little and heal a little more.
In Hamlet he could outright ignore two major threats, and that was his "upside", but those threats aren't in DST.

wha?

you mean... removing the upside portion of his downside for no reason, and forcing you to spend your healing on food...?

why?

like what benefit is this? do you think it helps wormwood? it definitely doesn't. It's the single worst idea i've ever heard for wormwood. Why would you literally nerf his food (easy food is a major draw for newbies) and be like "go eat rot, it gives a little food" like... why? I just don't understand what makes you think this is anything close to a good idea? it's basically saying "use your limited healing supplies to... feed yourself!"

What on earth?

23 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Traps needed a buff, and they got it. I hope the husk will get a good buff as well.

Eh. the traps were fine before and are fine now. the "buff" is convenience unless you want to use them for a boss fight for some (NICE) extra damage. the bramble husk is one of the best early items in the game currently and wormwood can make it for basically free. one husk is fully capable of allowing you to kill even endgame hound swarms. AOE damage is stupid powerful and to try to deny it is just downright silly. Multiple creatures that are otherwise a threat (bees, spiders, splumonkeys) can bullied easily with enough bramble husks to support yourself, now even easier with some bramble traps that self reset. bees are stingers (which is all you need for the armor and trap aside from the VERY available living logs) spiders are food sanity and literally all the healing wormwood ever needs if he wants it to be (healing salves are great and wormwood stunlocks basic spiders with a single bramble husk, just dont fight three or more tier 3 dens simultaneously and you will be fine, not to mention TENTS which are 15! full heals so long as you sleep with a full stomach (it's wormwood so...)) Basically if you make a tent, you can make a grand total of 105 living logs off of 1 tent and enough food to fill yourself up between sleeps. of course you need to be near base at night, but its preeeetty cheap. Oh 105 living logs can make..

52 bramble husks or alternatively 105 bramble traps, which do 40 damage each trigger with 10 triggers equalling 400 damage each trap. also known as 40,000 damage worth of traps. but yeah definitely "needs a buff" and not just stupid cheap and effective.

 

31 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Where are the options, what are the "builds"?

Before the Planned patch? it's pretty decent, not amazing but it's perfectly functional.

you can go for lightbulbs for equipment slot free light, with saladmanders to assist in combat. blooming lasting longer is very handy and blooming faster is pretty nice.

in your left branch you can go for flower power for longer and faster blooms, and also pick up bramble trap specialist, my two top picks from the left branch (I like lights out, photosynthesis doesn't help much there, but honestly i'd still rather not pick it if I was playing a normal mode, random rot is just as good and almost as cheap lol)

but if you aren't in lights out and DO want photosynthesis, you can give up the lightbugs and pick it up, because most players will be using a lantern instead anyway.

If you want those, you can easily still get the moon shroom cloud (which is EXTREMELY powerful, i'd argue as powerful as wickerbottoms sleep book easily, just different in how in functions)

If you want the lunar guardian 1 & 2 you need to give up on either photosynthesis or bramble trap specialist, but are still fully capable of obtaining all of the other landmark abilities.

or you could... craft plants... I guess? I think that path is a bit weak, but it sounds like fun.

56 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Sixth, blooming move speed is great, but tell it to WX, who can run faster AND eat dragonpies. And he is a robot, by the way.

Great point, except that WX is boring. OH and also another character also having movement speed doesn't change that wormwoods movement speed is a massive perk. stop trying to discredit his actual benefits.

57 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Seventh, go heal with rot and sleep during a boss fight, i'll watch =)

i... could? I mean I'd rather not but it's not THAT bad, it's just be tedious 100% doable though. But also you know that I mean it provides healing in the day to day without any extra work. Besides, why are you not wearing night armor as wormwood and using a batbat to heal, sanity is literally childs-play as wormwood.

And of course that's BEFORE you kill bee queen, jelly beans work fine on him.

59 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Eights, with the Friendly Fruit fly the only WW's farming advantage is not using a hoe. Which is great, but not enough. Especially since Wickerbottom exists in the game.

friendly fruit fly does not support the size of farms that wormwood can, a one man band could. but also I dont need to use a one man band so.. convenience?

I mean yeah wickerbottom can support players too. guess I'll say it again "just because another character can do something similar doesn't mean that the benefit doesn't exist"

what a silly argument.

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

So, to summarize

nine and ten, you forgot the nine and ten. I know they're not as significant but you cant summarize if you forget parts.

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

Wormwood needs a buff

no

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

and his skill tree is lacking

yes(ish)? until the rework planned when you could have lightbugs or saladmanders AND guardian 1 and 2. which is PRETTY sick and I love it way more than your redesign.

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

especially compared to Woodie

woodies tree was a whole rework for that poor character, don't compare the other twos tree to his, his really was a "fix" for the poor boy, he just wasn't really playable before it.

 

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

But i think that there is still room for improvement

There is always room for improvement, your suggestion is not improvement, to me at least. especially since you clearly don't understand the draw of the character... at all?

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

towards balancing characters relatively to each other.

God I hope not.

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

Will Klei do that or not, we will eventually see.

Lmao they wont, not because you're a bad designer or anything, but they aren't going to rework the tree so thoroughly, they have other stuff they need to get to aside from "wormwood skill tree refresh 3 - this time we redid literally everything"

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

My job is just to say my opinion and offer suggestions, so that's what i do.

You can offer your opinions, I can offer my opinion, that I think your opinion, is a bad idea.

Especially when it includes stuff like...

4 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

when wet, gain increased protection from overheating, and some fire resistance
- hunger drains slower when you are wet
- you dry slower

which is literally his already existing "summer protection" but worse and also now with a silly caveat that requires you to be wet which already PROVIDES PROTECTION FROM OVERHEATING. No one is having trouble with FOOD as wormwood.

or

4 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Fun guy
- learn to craft the Funcap without a blueprint
- removes the Funcap +50% spoil effect
- removes the Funcap wetness resistance
- Red Funcap deals a bit of damage to mobs that attack you when worn during the day
- Green Funcap has a chance to panic the mobs that attack you when worn during dusk
- Blue Funcap has a chance to heal you a little when you get hit during the night
- craft a Moon Shroom Funcap variant from Moon Shrooms, which has minor sanity regeneration and a chance to put the attacking mob to sleep when you have high sanity. Prevents the enlightenment-based (natural) Gestalts from attacking you
- learn to craft the Funguy Cap from the Funcap blueprint, which acts as all RGB Funcaps depending on the time of day, and as the Moon Cap when you are at high sanity / under Enlightenment / under the full moon
requires Poor Sap

which sounds like a lot of effort on kleis part for no real benefit. Like who cares if I can make a funcap for free, theres a reason no one uses it, it SUCKS.

thus concludes my caffeine induced rant

adieu

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

This is simply my opinion. I like Wormwood, but i believe that he needs a buff or adjustments, and skill trees are a good opportunity.
I have listed what i don't like about the current state of the character, while also providing ways to fix it.
If you have different opinions, feel free to write them, instead of devaluating other people's opinions or suggestions.

I said that because your post came off as someone who didn't like the playstyle of Wormwood to me I'm sorry if that wasn't the case. But that aside I feel like he's got more than enough upsides at this point. Living logs, stunlock resistant aoe damaging armor, self resetting traps, slow regeneration, poop producing formula, bee kind which makes harvesting honey a lot easier, lunar shroom a aoe sleep ability that makes bee queen fight alot easier, summons, the ability to bind enemies who attack him and another that summons vines to attack on your behalf and more.

I've said it before and I'll say it again while Wormwood didn't come away the strongest of the 3 he is the one who came away the most changed in terms of skill set and playstyle.

[Mortalbane]

33 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I said that because your post came off as someone who didn't like the playstyle of Wormwood to me I'm sorry if that wasn't the case. But that aside I feel like he's got more than enough upsides at this point. Living logs, stunlock resistant aoe damaging armor, self resetting traps, slow regeneration, poop producing formula, bee kind which makes harvesting honey a lot easier, lunar shroom a aoe sleep ability that makes bee queen fight alot easier, summons, the ability to bind enemies who attack him and another that summons vines to attack on your behalf and more.

I've said it before and I'll say it again while Wormwood didn't come away the strongest of the 3 he is the one who came away the most changed in terms of skill set and playstyle.

That is all true, and nice to have. But also nothing of that is new, i mean, what we don't have already, accessible to any character.
Except for bramble armor and traps. As i said, they needed a buff too though, and i'm glad they got one.
But there is a reason why everybody praises Woodie's skill tree, and nobody likes current WW tree (at least before the next changes). Woodie has clear roles, and the tree compliments it, making him better at what he's trying to be.
And who is Wormwood? A farmer? Well, where are any farming skills that matter? An AoE damage dealer? Or is he a bush-crafter? What build do i go for in the skill tree? Do i have multiple builds to choose from?
Idk what Klei's ideas are, and why they do this or that, i can only guess. If they would share their thoughts behind their decisions, that would be great and enlightening.
Meanwhile, my vision is that WW needs a better identity and a skill tree that supports it. So that is why i suggest those things. And reading people's counter-arguments here, so far no one has changed my opinion.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

But there is a reason why everybody praises Woodie's skill tree

Because he was a bad character before it and came away with all of his problems fixed while also being strong. Wolfgang and Wormwood didn't get that specifically because they were already good as characters however it's true Wormwood's initial skill tree was pretty bad.

[Mortalbane]

52 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

adieu

I've read only to your first insult, which was not far. So sorry to let you know that you've wasted so much time and effort writing all that text which i didn't even read.
I appreciate your feedback. See you and your exemplary behavior on my next character suggestion post. I have a few of them already, go check them out.

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Because he was a bad character before it and came away with all of his problems fixed while also being strong. Wolfgang and Wormwood didn't get that specifically because they were already good as characters however it's true Wormwood's initial skill tree was pretty bad.

Well, yes, but why Wolfgang and Wormwood trees don't feel good? Wolfgang is strong and a good character, he just needed variety. This is exactly what i suggested for him, but sadly with no result. And Wormwood i think needs identity and the tree that supports it. To me it felt like Klei just tossed random plant-based things at him, and now, under the community feedback, he is taking more of a shape. Maybe this post will not be used as well, but at least i'm expressing my opinion.
I also believe, that each character has to have a role, or even more than one, and be good at it. Or be jack of all trades, like Woodie is now.
So, if Wormwood is considered a farmer and a camp-turtle, and he also has problems with healing, which further promotes that playstyle, then i'd like to see some rewards. Like the farming buffs that i suggested, and not bush crafting, not Fly Trap, not tending radius increase. And i'm not the only one who says similar things.
So i really hope that Klei will continue to listen to the community feedback.

[Copyafriend]

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

It's the single worst idea i've ever heard for wormwood.

This is the first insult?

Sassy isn't an insult, more of an observation.

And feel free to not read, it was more for me because your post made me unreasonably angry because of how thoroughly you seem to misunderstand my favorite character while simultaneously asserting many things about them.

I may or may not read your other posts, I had a lot of free time earlier, I have much less now.

37 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

exemplary behavior

I could have been more polite.

So I apologize for that at least.

[Brago-sama]

As someone who actaully mains wormwood (and Warly ) I think he's fine tbh. His downside makes him fun. Makes you think outside the box. 

 Early gamei make healing poultice and switch to jelly beans late game. Bramble husk + Thulicite crown is a certified bee queen killer. He really didnt need photosynthisis

[Mortalbane]

8 hours ago, Brago-sama said:

As someone who actaully mains wormwood (and Warly ) I think he's fine tbh. His downside makes him fun. Makes you think outside the box. 

 Early gamei make healing poultice and switch to jelly beans late game. Bramble husk + Thulicite crown is a certified bee queen killer. He really didnt need photosynthisis

I'm all for the fun downsides, if everyone has them. I simply believe that DS signature lack of balance is more suited for the single player, which it was originally designed for.
Some people might like playing "on crutches" with interesting downsides, while other characters run around you decimating the map, but i'm juts not one of those people.

I'd very much appreciate if Klei would share their thoughts behind the purpose of the skill trees. Are they to help new players? Well, how does the current tree help, in what way? Is it here to make the game easier, or to explain things? Are the trees here to expand the characters? Well, that is always good, but the directions are questionable.

All i'm asking for is to take a look at my farming branch suggestions, because i believe that WW is picked mainly for farms. Especially by new players.
And the rest of the post is just an attempt to better group the skills and make them feel more useful.

[NexusMercer]

On 7/30/2023 at 2:49 AM, Mortalbane said:

Maybe, plant crafting? Nah, i'll get all those plants without wasting skill points

I think this perk is used to get something hard to get, for example, in juicy berry bush world, you only can get normal berry bush in the cave₍˄·͈༝·͈˄*₎◞ ̑̑

[Mortalbane]

2 hours ago, NexusMercer said:

I think this perk is used to get something hard to get, for example, in juicy berry bush world, you only can get normal berry bush in the cave₍˄·͈༝·͈˄*₎◞ ̑̑

Monkey tails are hard to get too, but not impossible.
Spending skill points on plant crafting, and then getting all the plants from the world i consider a waste and regret.
I'd consider spending a skill point on plant crafting, if all of the skills were combined into one. Even then, if i had better options to choose from, like the ones that i suggest, i'd still pick them instead.
But that is just my opinion. Some people want to craft saplings, some people want to decorate megabases, it's their right to want that.

Oh, and another thing - with the current system you can "adapt" to a twiggy tree world only on your first WW playthrough.
If you have skill points spent, you will learn what a world is only after locking the character and spawning in.
Then yeah, you can re-spec with the moon portal upgrade, but how does it help when it was needed.

[NexusMercer]

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

Monkey tails are hard to get too, but not impossible.
Spending skill points on plant crafting, and then getting all the plants from the world i consider a waste and regret.
I'd consider spending a skill point on plant crafting, if all of the skills were combined into one. Even then, if i had better options to choose from, like the ones that i suggest, i'd still pick them instead.
But that is just my opinion. Some people want to craft saplings, some people want to decorate megabases, it's their right to want that.

Oh, and another thing - with the current system you can "adapt" to a twiggy tree world only on you first WW playthrough.
If you have skill points spent, you will learn what a world is only after locking the character and spawning in.
Then yeah, you can re-spec with the moon portal upgrade, but how does it help when it was needed.

I have the same opinion. It will spend too many skill points to get craftable plants(˃ ⌑ ˂ഃ )

[lenship2]

On 7/30/2023 at 5:35 AM, Mortalbane said:

I'd very much appreciate if Klei would share their thoughts behind the purpose of the skill trees. Are they to help new players? Well, how does the current tree help, in what way? Is it here to make the game easier, or to explain things? Are the trees here to expand the characters? Well, that is always good, but the directions are questionable.

from what i've speculated skill trees are a way so new players dont lose all their progress upon leaving a world, giving them some semblance of long-term accomplishment. so when they die in a world, or if they just outright leave, they get to keep the artificial progression the skill tree provides.