What is the weremoose's role?

[Mysterious box]

So I've got a question for Kiel and the community what is the weremoose's role? So as we all know the weremoose got major nerfs to both it's hp regen and his damage. Personally I'm of the opinion that both nerfs were not necessary but it leads me to further question how Woodie's wereforms are being handled.

In their base forms without skill points neither the werebeaver or the weremoose are worth using despite being major perks of the character the skill trees aim to fix this but the default experience of a Woodie player is that your playing with optional downsides with a cost until you get enough skill points to fix that.

That aside I figure I may as well bring this up on it's own because there seem to be some who feel the healing nerf is fine, after having tested it I don't think it's ok. Can we survive without the previous healing? Yes but that doesn't mean it was a good change the weremoose already suffers from the fact he can't actively heal himself meaning that mistakes in combat hurt for more than when your human even if your using lesser armors in your human state because the only hp value that matters is 0 and humans can actively prevent that through healing items the weremoose can't.
 

Now on to my main point me asking what role is the weremoose intended to play?

Is it meant to be a state to farm hordes? I mean it's definitely possible to do so.

Is it meant to fight bosses? Well yea I'd imagine that was the intention but there's problems with that. There's no inherent value in using it to do so because it's combat capabilities are inferior to you in your base state while placing multiple additional restrictions on yourself something pre patch weremoose had already somewhat fixed. This was because his damage was higher than what Woodie could usually put out and kitting decently gave good enough healing to make screw ups not as punishing but not too forgiving. What the nerf did was make the moose's damage inferior to Woodie's making it a optional downgrade again in terms of combat while also lowering the healing meaning that you needed to be very good at kitting to make the small amounts of healing worth it devaluing the increased defense the form offers. After all if you need to be near perfect at dodging for the healing to matter in a fight what's the point of having the higher defense at that point it feels like your better off with 80% damage reduction and healing items if for some reason you can't get something better. Also this isn't even getting into the fact that the weremoose is just plain unusable vs most bosses with special mechanics.

So I ask again what is the weremoose supposed to be in relation to Woodie's gameplay loop a optional downside? A emergency combat mode? A challenge mode for boss fights?

[Primalflower]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

because it's combat capabilities are inferior to you in your base state

its damage and healing and armor value for negligible cost haha

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

its damage and healing and armor value for negligible cost haha

and more risk as well. it's not like darkswords are exactly expensive, the slam is also pretty gimmicky with it's damage nerf

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

and more risk as well. it's not like darkswords are exactly expensive 

Its not as risky as you would think in practice speaking from someone who has with ease taken down several bosses with weremoose as of recently, as for darkswords that simply depends on your situation and there are plenty of scenarios where i would much rather use 3 monster meat and a few grass over dark swords LOL

[Dextops]

Just now, Primalflower said:

Its not as risky as you would think in practice speaking from someone who has with ease taken down several bosses with weremoose as of recently, as for darkswords that simply depends on your situation and there are plenty of scenarios where i would much rather use 3 monster meat and a few grass over dark swords LOL

idk it just doesn't seem worth it and the nerfs were unnecessary in the first place, he was in a perfectly balanced state. There is not really a reason to go for weremoose mastery over the other things in the tree.

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

its damage and healing and armor value for negligible cost haha

But damage and healing are already available at a negligible cost in a far safer pace. What is the moose offering that we don't already have?

[Primalflower]

Just now, Dextops said:

idk it just doesn't seem worth it and the nerfs were unnecessary in the first place, he was in a perfectly balanced state. There is not really a reason to go for weremoose mastery over the other things in the tree.

there are totally places where i would 100% prefer weregoose mastery, you can travel across the map so quickly with it, and woodie was in a good spot before the nerf, but speaking from experience weremoose is far from worthless now and totally viable as a combat form especially for the cost.

[xhyom]

I think they should just increase the healing a little bit, like 2/3 of what it was before, I don't know? I don't think this nerf ended the character, he still has many other advantages and the cost of the transformation is very low, it's simply an armor and weapon with area damage with very low cost. I do not agree with this idea that there is no reason to use this form instead of the human one, the benefits are clear and fair, but I also believe that they were kind of unnecessary...
Werebeaver wasn't kind of unnecessary, it was totally unnecessary, I can't understand in what context that thing was so strong that it needed to be nerfed

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

but speaking from experience weremoose is far from worthless now and totally viable as a combat form especially for the cost.

I'm not so sure about that mostly because in his current state he doesn't offer an advantage over Woodie he's giving you a different way to play for sure but you're not actually benefiting from using the form and that's more or less my problem with his current state which makes me feel like he's back to square one.

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

there are totally places where i would 100% prefer weregoose mastery, you can travel across the map so quickly with it, and woodie was in a good spot before the nerf, but speaking from experience weremoose is far from worthless now and totally viable as a combat form especially for the cost.

the problem before the skill tree was that his wereforms weren't upgrades, they were usually weaker forms of the actual base woodie. Woodie finally escaped that especially with the weremoose but now the weremoose is back to being close to or worse than a base woodie. Healing weapons and armour are things that aren't expensive and are usually things you can just get the resource for passively. I just don't see why these nerfs were justified in anyway.

[Primalflower]

2 minutes ago, Dextops said:

he problem before the skill tree was that his wereforms weren't upgrades, they were usually weaker forms of the actual base woodie. Woodie finally escaped that especially with the weremoose but now the weremoose is back to being close to or worse than a base woodie. Healing weapons and armour are things that aren't expensive and are usually things you can just get the resource for passively. I just don't see why these nerfs were justified in anyway.

idk what to tell you friend i take down bosses with weremoose in significantly less time because i dont have to devote resources to it past monster meat and grass lol

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, xhyom said:

I think they should just increase the healing a little bit, like 2/3 of what it was before, I don't know? I don't think this nerf ended the character, he still has many other advantages and the cost of the transformation is very low, it's simply an armor and weapon with area damage with very low cost. I do not agree with this idea that there is no reason to use this form instead of the human one, the benefits are clear and fair, but I also believe that they were kind of unnecessary...
Werebeaver wasn't kind of unnecessary, it was totally unnecessary, I can't understand in what context that thing was so strong that it needed to be nerfed

I would argue both nerfs were completely unnecessary Weremoose has you spending 4 skill points to upgrade a form that's still inferior to his base. While the beaver now clears what feels like a very small area and takes more tail wacks to down trees that are still quite close to him. 

Just now, Primalflower said:

idk what to tell you friend i take down bosses with weremoose in significantly less time because i dont have to devote resources to it past monster meat and grass lol

You take down bosses faster than base form Woodie despite dealing less damage and potientally being slower depending on equipment base Woodie might have? 

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

You take down bosses faster than base form Woodie despite dealing less damage and potientally being slower depending on equipment base Woodie might have? 

yeah

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Primalflower said:

yeah

Honestly I find it hard to believe but everyone's different I guess.

[Primalflower]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Honestly I find it hard to believe but everyone's different I guess.

comparing a run of me doing this boss and gathering materials for it vs. 3 monster meat and some grass lol

[chirsg]

3 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

idk what to tell you friend i take down bosses with weremoose in significantly less time because i dont have to devote resources to it past monster meat and grass lol

outdated information. there's been a nerf. breakpoints are different now. including smash, it takes 7 hits to kill a larvae from dragonfly vs the 6 hits before. Same principal applies to grumblebees I believe. 

 

[Primalflower]

Just now, chirsg said:

outdated information. there's been a nerf. breakpoints are different now. including smash, it takes 7 hits to kill a larvae from dragonfly vs the 6 hits before. Same principal applies to grumblebees I believe. 

im saying this based on post nerf experience

[chirsg]

Just now, Primalflower said:

im saying this based on post nerf experience

Yes. It's amazing what can be done using spite. 

Well done. It's now more optimal to no longer spec into the max moose tree and just cancel every hit like the status quo before the beta even took place. I.e. nothing has actually changed and the old meta is prevalent. 

DPS is higher when you do the 1 armed shimmy. 

 

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

comparing a run of me doing this boss and gathering materials for it vs. 3 monster meat and some grass lol

Hold up if that's what you mean there's tons of flaws to this you can't bring the moose to every fight so your still going to have to gather materials for combat add to the fact the moose is a decaying piece of equipment the moment you pop it. Also you can simplifying healing foods and armor through farms further making this distinction pointless.

[chirsg]

"bosses" which ones?

 

[Lardee]

I'd say that aside from making hound waves and swarm mob farming a breeze, the Weremoose is a higher DPS and lower resource alternative to fighting most of the bosses in the game as Woodie and that's in solo.

If you have a Wigfrid or a Wortox on your team, 3 monster meat basically makes you unkillable for 7 minutes.

[chirsg]

22 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I'd say that of making hound waves and swarm mob farming a breeze

This has been bread and butter Woodie before the beta was even about. Hounds are perhaps the most dangerous entity in the entire game because there are times when you are caught unarmed. Wendy, Wolfgang and Woodie before beta were absolutely top tier at hounds with only what was in their pockets when the wave begins after day 100. 

The problem I have with post patch Woodie is mainly the damage output to challenge lategame bosses as optimally as you would with run of the mill endgame gear. Nothing fancy. 

It's nice to have the habitual option to hulk out, but the expenses in food as a contingency is 100% not worth it vs the tactic of simply running faster and doing more DPS. What's optimal is Woodie being just the plain jane dark sword, brightshade geard, void cloak runner. 

I think prepatch woodie should have had a barrier of entry for his old max moose form instead of being endgame moose on day 1.

I have advocated for this right from the start.

I have ALWAYS said that Woodie with max skill tree was a bit overtuned for the late game and the problem was with the skill tree being accessible too early on in a world. 

Scrape the threads, I have said that and even if it's dogma, I will die on this hill.

But going in this direction is not the way any of us wanted it to go as Woodie mains.

Woodie's max moose was APPROPRIATELY powered for the endgame. 
I really wish there were some sort of trial to get his old smash power back. 

Sufficing to say, I called it. There is certainly an anti Woodie conspiracy. Maxwell once again gets Klei privilege. Inspired by Dana White privilege 

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Maxwell once again gets Klei privilege

The biggest thing that bothers me about this is Woodie in his entirety comes up short next to Maxwell with his skill tree despite Maxwell not even having the buffs of his skill tree yet. Meaning the gap between them has already widened before we even see what he gets.

[Lardee]

1 hour ago, chirsg said:

The problem I have with post patch Woodie is mainly the damage output to challenge lategame bosses as optimally as you would with run of the mill endgame gear. Nothing fancy. 

It's nice to have the habitual option to hulk out, but the expenses in food as a contingency is 100% not worth it vs the tactic of simply running faster and doing more DPS. What's optimal is Woodie being just the plain jane dark sword, brightshade geard, void cloak runner. 

I'm totally on board with buffing his DPS back to what it was, but even with the nerf isn't the Moose's dps basically the same as a dark sword? 

[flamboyant wolf]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

The biggest thing that bothers me about this is Woodie in his entirety comes up short next to Maxwell with his skill tree despite Maxwell not even having the buffs of his skill tree yet. Meaning the gap between them has already widened before we even see what he gets.

crazy how one character gets to be the best gatherer and a decent fighter(and battle support, due to his cage spell) for almost no cost(1 nf per 5 spells, for a character who has significantly easier time farming it, and whose only "downside" is... low max hp?), along with amazing portable storage(when only Maxwell is present, it provides even more slots than Woby, plus it can be used to transfer items to other players), while also having access to the entire kit of another decently strong character, for whatever reason, meanwhile Woodie finally gets to be decent at using his perks and gets nerfed immediately. Don't ya just love good ol' balance?