Will uncompromising game content reduce game fun?

[Ardyn]

That's right, in the extensive discussion brought about by this beta version, many people mentioned that if the game has difficulty, it will reduce the fun of the game, so making the game simple will become fun - but is this true?

The most enjoyable gaming experience for me in DST and DS is the period when I first started playing games. During that time, I was repeatedly killed by this cruel world, but I slowly overcame one difficulty after another through my own experiments and game guides written by other players. And whenever I overcome a difficulty, I gain great pleasure - most of the time. Most of the difficulties of DST and DST require experience to overcome, and once you overcome them, the difficulty of this difficulty is much reduced. For example, when I was a beginner, I didn't know there was armor in the game, so I often died in battles with monsters. But when I learned the method of making wooden armor, the monster's damage to me was reduced by 80% - a significant improvement. The joy of overcoming difficulties through experience is unique to DST and DS, and is completely different from DARK SOULS, which overcomes difficulties through operation.

However, not all the process of overcoming difficulties is full of fun, and some difficulties are difficult to bring joy to people - such as cracking. The mechanism of cracking is basically difficult to explore and discover by oneself, and it requires searching for strategies to complete, while the pearl task process is extremely complex even for familiar people, and it is difficult to obtain sufficient benefits from it. The battle of practicing cramming is also very painful, and the whole Learning curve is a mess - at least in my experience. Therefore, the difficulties in the game require sufficiently sophisticated design to satisfy players.

After becoming familiar with various parts of the game, overcoming higher-level difficulties in the game still gave me a lot of fun. For example, playing Wormwood using a bramble husk to defeat an ancient fuelweaver, or playing Willow using Burnie to confront swarms of shadow creatures in the ruin. Each character has a unique way to overcome different difficulties, and of course, some character designs may have flaws, so further modifications are needed, I admit. But in terms of current difficulty, I think it's just right, and the overall character doesn't need further strengthening. If the game is too simple and some of the original difficulties are no longer difficulties, the joy of overcoming them/optimizing the methods to overcome them will also be reduced.

For me, reducing the overall difficulty of the game would disrupt the fun I gain from overcoming difficulties. Considering the existence of Wurt, players who are unwilling to learn and overcome difficulties can also easily overcome a large number of difficulties using Merms. Even with the help of mod, some players can easily overcome all difficulties.

I think DST needs to add more difficulties, but it doesn't need to be poorly designed like crabking, but rather needs to be exquisitely designed like temperature and darkness, truly allowing players to feel the joy of overcoming them. Unfortunately, I have rarely seen such difficulties since the ROT version, perhaps this is also the reason why the difficulty of DST has been criticized.

[Mysterious box]

Honestly it's hard to pick one camp as both easier games and harder games appeal to people but naturally both appeal to different playstyles don't starve is trying to appeal to the former while still having many mechanics clearly meant for the latter and I feel like as time passes more mechanics from the latter are going to be softened up with push back on each step of the way. In a sense it does make sense as the casual crowd will always be the bigger crowd for better and worse. Regardless of our personal feelings adding things like skill trees, the bestiary, and various other controversial mechanics will without doubt increase the appeal of don't starve together to a wider audience as will lowering the need to adapt to the world.

[Mike23Ua]

People are going to make one sided arguments no matter if you are for or against DST getting harder or just in general more survival content.

They will make falsified claims that DST is harder than Solo DS just based on Enemy Health being higher to account for DST being a multiplayer game.

However I can name a very long quite exhaustive list of actual evidence of DST becoming more and more forgiving.

Such as: Fashion Goggles no longer needing to be prototyped first, so for 1 measly gold nugget & 1 pig skin players have what’s essentially Top Hat Sanity without needing to prototype a science machine and fight spiders first.

Speaking of Spiders- let’s discuss the Webber Rework, where he can now downgrade Spider Den Tiers by shaving them with a Razor, Upgrade their Den Stages by applying silk to them, or even out right preventing their growth stages by decorating them.

I don’t think DST needs some terraria style end game “hard mode” BUT incorporating at least SOME of the challenge Solo DS and it’s DLC expansions provided would be very welcomed.

Especially if they’re going to do things like add Canopy’s that ignore the already Minimal effects of Summer, and now We have actual conversations wanting Pillars to be permanent solutions to cave quakes, and meteor showers.

To say the very least: I’m highly concerned with the future of the game/franchise.

[Spino43]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Such as: Fashion Goggles no longer needing to be prototyped first, so for 1 measly gold nugget & 1 pig skin players have what’s essentially Top Hat Sanity without needing to prototype a science machine and fight spiders first.

[lenship2]

21 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Such as: Fashion Goggles no longer needing to be prototyped first, so for 1 measly gold nugget & 1 pig skin players have what’s essentially Top Hat Sanity without needing to prototype a science machine and fight spiders first.

thats just objectively incorrect, i always make sure to prototype them whenever i make an alchemy engine so i can actually fight antlion later (instead of rushing a science machine in the oasis bc i forgot to)

also in terms of looks fashion goggles > top hat 100%

[Prinha]

53 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Such as: Fashion Goggles no longer needing to be prototyped first, so for 1 measly gold nugget & 1 pig skin players have what’s essentially Top Hat Sanity without needing to prototype a science machine and fight spiders first.

This doesn't show that the game is getting more forgiving. It has always been possible to make and use a tophat. Meanwhile fashion goggles were super hard to obtain with their only difference to a tophat being that they look different, last about 50% longer and require different ressources. One of which (pigskin) is arguably much harder to obtain on public servers. Or in other words a ridiculously difficult to get item compared to its actual usefulness. So fashion goggles were reduced to being an annoying but necessary stepping stone on your way to base inside the oasis and nothing more. After years and years of oasis fishing, where people even spend entire summers without getting the BP, this was finally fixed and now you complain about it. Wow.

While we are at it, why not make the game "difficult" by keeping underpowered, misdesigned, almost broken featuers and characters in it? How about you get yourself a variation, where Abigail is back to being uncontrollable and can only be summoned by killing something after 3 days, having the flower on the floor? And while doing so, base inside the oasis without ever making desert goggles. So much fun!

[GenomeSquirrel]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

Speaking of Spiders- let’s discuss the Webber Rework, where he can now downgrade Spider Den Tiers by shaving them with a Razor, Upgrade their Den Stages by applying silk to them, or even out right preventing their growth stages by decorating them.

 

skipping the literally an army of spiders part of his character, and focusing the part even most non Webbers can manage ...

i'm more confused than anything

[Copyafriend]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Speaking of Spiders- let’s discuss the Webber Rework, where he can now downgrade Spider Den Tiers by shaving them with a Razor, Upgrade their Den Stages by applying silk to them, or even out right preventing their growth stages by decorating them.

Webber has… always been able to upgrade dens?

Which id inarguably his strongest perk out of these three. Reducing the size and decorating them is for convenience.

if you wanna talk about webber getting easier, why not talk about his unlimited loyalty, and picking them up, and nurse spiders

i mean there ARE conveniences that make together now easier than together 4 years ago, but that doesnt mean its easier than solo, those are two entirely different metrics.

The fashion goggles is really the only thing you’ve mentioned that is actually the game getting easier.

 

but regardless of that i’m going to say something that you never have once responded to in a meaningful way:

Dont starve will NEVER be hard for you again.

 

it just wont, at least not without a dlc (which they’re not doing) or a dlc sized expansion focusing solely on survival updates (which they wont do because thats years of work)

with the update cycle of dont starve together being what it is, even if every single update for the next year introduced survival mechanics, none of them could challenge you because by the time a new one comes out, you will already have mastered the old one. 
 

additionally you are TOO GOOD at dont starve. Even if the game HAS gotten easier compared to solo, it means nothing compared to the mountain of experience you’ve gained that would trivialize ANY level of difficulty outside of “effectively impossible to beat”

 

you’ve beat this game, you won dude, there is no more gods to kill, no more mountains to climb, they could make more mountains but youd run out of mountain faster than they could make more.

 

stop expecting the game to challenge you, its never going to happen again, stop wanting them to reinvent the game, because its never going to be new enough to please you.

i’m not saying this to be rude or call you entitled or say you’re asking too much.

i’m saying that there isnt any more challenge to be gained from playing the game once you’ve reached our level of expertise, its over man, its sad but its true.

[Mike23Ua]

Webber being able to pause, upgrade or downgrade a spiders den isn’t to benefit the Webber player.. its to Benefit everyone Else that Isn’t that Webber Player.

Its like a Wurt being able to turn normally hostile Merms Passive Aggressive- Sure these are character perks that make playing the game “Together” less annoying, but at the exact same time: It removes the games few mob threats that Exist.

You can NOT just Deny that..

And my Issue with it is Klei has added no new surface mobs to challenge our existence but they keep lessening or even outright removing already existing ones.

It doesn’t just extend to playable characters and their “perks” though, we also have new permanent structures that make weather seasons completely ignorable.. while at the exact same time: Not introducing any new ones to be challenged by.

[Prinha]

42 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And my Issue with it is Klei has added no new surface mobs to challenge our existence but they keep lessening or even outright removing already existing ones.

If only Klei would introduce a new weather effect. Say really into lategame, there could be portals spawning every 20 days and new mobs come out of those portals.

What too easy? Yeah you are right, one could just avoid the area...

How about the mobs roam the map and can potentially pop up anywhere, with a disizive preference for places, where the player has relocated large amounts of plants like farm plots? 

Oh sry, you wanted something that randomly destroys the player's base with no counterplay. Yes, that would be much more challenging and also much more fun!

[Copyafriend]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Webber being able to pause, upgrade or downgrade a spiders den isn’t to benefit the Webber player.. its to Benefit everyone Else that Isn’t that Webber Player.

Its like a Wurt being able to turn normally hostile Merms Passive Aggressive- Sure these are character perks that make playing the game “Together” less annoying, but at the exact same time: It removes the games few mob threats that Exist.

You can NOT just Deny that..

I dont have to deny it, i’m going to instead tell you that expecting anything else is just silly, webber was a PAIN to play with before his rework, and wurt would be a nightmare. they can pacify mobs. Cool? You do know what else super easily permanently pacifies both those mobs? A hammer. Or if you’re feeling lazy, this cheap little craft called a fire staff.

they’re only threats if you make them threats. Those two characters want to use the spiders/merms so it makes sense for them to be able to pacify them as to not annoy other players. 
 

there is a DISTINCT difference between a quality of life change and a difficulty adjustment.

31 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And my Issue with it is Klei has added no new surface mobs to challenge our existence but they keep lessening or even outright removing already existing ones.

What mobs havr they “lessened or even outright removed” i hope you dont mean the monkeys? Because hate to break this to you, they were only ever “pre nerf” in a beta, also known as a testing phase. And you can still find them, they exist, they’re just not constantly raiding you with a rediculously overwhelming number of monkeys. 
 

not to mention you NEVER PLAYED with said unnerfed monkeys, and have NO CONCEPT of how annoying and constant they were. 

so overall a good change.

but i mean the only real threat i know of on the surface that seeks you out is the hounds, and i mean they’re still here and still pretty hard. I mean they have the varglet now, so i mean it’s theoretically a bit easier to manage, but realistically you gotta do what you’ve always done and have a farm to kill them with. 
 

35 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

we also have new permanent structures that make weather seasons completely ignorable.. while at the exact same time: Not introducing any new ones to be challenged by

Do you mean the tree? The tree you almost certainly are not setting up before year two? Or even if you do set it up year one you definitely spent a good portion of the year prepping for summer, and should definitely have some pretty nice rewards (all it does is give you a natural insulation factor and prevent wildfires inside of it) it doesnt bust summer or make it super dummy easy, its just convenient. Do you know whats even easier? Oasis basing and killing antlion before going to the caves where overheating isnt a thing.

 

but aside from any of the deconstruction of your arguments i do wanna ask.

 

are you complaining because its making the game too easy for YOU. Or are you complaining because you dislike the game theoretically being easier for others. 
 

To be specific: do you actually interact with the powder monkeys and are disappointed by their weakened state?

do you plant the BEEG tree and then go “dang guess summer is solved”

do you play all the characters and wish you had the unbuffed version?

Or do you just play like you play and complain that people are getting new toys that you wont ever use because you yourself have admitted multiple times you rarely play past the first year and mostly just do the survival experience, which is almost totally separate from the content that i think you’re complaining about

[Mike23Ua]

Let me ask you a question, if you buy a game.. let’s just say I don’t know- Spelunky 2 or Sonic the Hedgehog, both of these games qualify as side scrolling platform hopping Rogue-Like games where you have a limited pool of lives and are expected to make it through the entire game, if you buy this game: And all of a sudden they update this game so that it’s no longer a rogue-like, with unlimited lives & infinity continues… is it still the same game you bought to experience for its particular experience? Or is it now something almost completely unrecognizable to You?

Because the above comparison is essentially what Klei is doing to DST, they’re lessening or out right removing the challenges of the game- that largely made up the “Game” you were playing, to turn it into something else.

Or: In words anyone can understand- The challenges and enjoyment I got of the game and very specifically purchased said game to experience are no longer what the friends I invite into the game will experience

They will never know a day where Darkness Kills them when there are easy to craft structures like the Carnival ticket booths that can literally be set up around the map to react like Maxwells Lights from Solo DS (activating when you get near)

Sure the Cawnival is a funny little side mode, but it still gets the point across quite clearly: So to answer your question, yes I’m upset that my friends aren’t getting to suffer & get the same kind of playing experiences like I once did.

And While Sonic & Spelunky may not be the best examples to have used.. hopefully you at least understand it enough to see where I’m coming from.

[Copyafriend]

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because the above comparison is essentially what Klei is doing to DST, they’re lessening or out right removing the challenges of the game- that largely made up the “Game” you were playing, to turn it into something else.

Or: In words anyone can understand- The challenges and enjoyment I got of the game and very specifically purchased said game to experience are no longer what the friends I invite into the game will experience

They will never know a day where Darkness Kills them when there are easy to craft structures like the Carnival ticket booths that can literally be set up around the map to react like Maxwells Lights from Solo DS (activating when you get near)

Sure the Cawnival is a funny little side mode, but it still gets the point across quite clearly: So to answer your question, yes I’m upset that my friends aren’t getting to suffer & get the same kind of playing experiences like I once did.

And While Sonic & Spelunky may not be the best examples to have used.. hopefully you at least understand it enough to see where I’m coming from.

You’re right, if they changed splunkey into an infinite life “do over” simulator, i’d be pretty mad, because its completely and totally counterintuitive to the game design of being a roguelite game.

but this isnt at all whats being done to dont starve. 
 

no one has ever used the carnival lights as a thing to protect them from charlie; and if they have it was a desperation move because they lack two grass and two sticks. (The only way that is happening is if they just didnt notice, because grass and sticks are way too abundant for DARKNESS of all things to kill even a newbie player)

but i mean you’re right, events DO make the game easier, but that is kinda by design, its a celebration, so things are a little easier, you can get resources you cant normally and do things you cant typically do. Most intelligent players would just… avoid it if they dont wanna give themselves a handicap. 
 

and specifically for you and your friends, you’re almost certainly hosting and can turn them off, and if you’re not hosting you can ask the host to turn it off. 

dont starve is either as difficult or almost as difficult as it has ever been. There being midgame solutions to problems do not make it any easier for a new player to not get murdered day 7 by two hounds. 
 

the tree in the ocean? Think of it like the slanty shanty in hamlet. It makes things easier but you have to go out of your way to get it, and it doesnt solve all your problems. 
 

sonic and splunkey are fine examples, but the point is that the “experience” of learning dont starve isnt really all that easier. There’s pretty much two halves of learning dont starve:

when you cant survive past the first year.

And when you can survive indefinitely. 
 

once your friends can survive a full year on their own, the main challenge of dont starve is over, they already have the gear that let them survive the first time. They can survive it again as many times as they want. 
 

thats the point past which most content that significantly trivializes the early game is locked.

yeah, stonefruit bushes can feed you forever and never spoil, small issue, you have to find the lunar island, and a new player isnt going to do that without a guide or some crazy luck.

but more importantly:

you are not the main character and your experience is not the experience everyone wants to have. 
 

you can want the game to be extremely survival centric, but klei can just go “nah” at any point,

Its their right man, they could make endless the default mode and give everyone a darksword as part of their starting gear.

i wouldnt like that change, but ive almost never seen a developer change their whole design plan around just because a minority group (you me and a few others) want it to go in a different direction.

the game hasnt been ruined anyway. Its kind of… pretty much just in your imagination that things have changed. If the powder monkeys “could have been better” remember, they could have been… really really annoying too. 
 

if the tree would’ve been better not existing to you, maybe it would have been better off not existing, but if you never bring the seed to your base and plant it…

it might as well not exist, and your friends arent going to find and plant it either, i barely know how to do it and i was all over the forums when that update dropped.

If you’re not getting the conveniences for your friends, they’re not going to find it on their own. And if they can find and retrieve it on their own… they’re good enough to where it doesnt make much of a difference.

[Spino43]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Or: In words anyone can understand- The challenges and enjoyment I got of the game and very specifically purchased said game to experience are no longer what the friends I invite into the game will experience

Yup, this is the proof that you expect anyone to have the same mindset as you when playing games.

And it isn't.

[BeeClops]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:16 AM, lenship2 said:

thats just objectively incorrect, i always make sure to prototype them whenever i make an alchemy engine so i can actually fight antlion later (instead of rushing a science machine in the oasis bc i forgot to)

also in terms of looks fashion goggles > top hat 100%

objectively the best fashion item in game