xhyom Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 As the title suggests, wouldn't it be more interesting if characters who already have many advantages and perks started with less and could customize their gameplay more? By allowing characters to start with fewer innate abilities or advantages, players would have the opportunity to specialize their characters in specific areas that suit their playstyle, or just chose the default perks and have the same old character if wanted. This would provide a sense of agency and allow for more diverse gameplay experiences. I believe that this could avoid situations like Wolfgang, who is already a character who has a lot to get even more just because we have entered this situation where all characters MUST have at least something improved just to not left an empty tree. One of the big criticisms of this update is that they are just powercreeping the game more and more, a character with less being forced to choose a route that suits they couldn't bring an end to this problem? More relevant perks are much more rewarding and attractive too, at least in this logic in which the player decides how he is going to play. Having perks that are focused on unique and impactful abilities or playstyles would be more enticing to players, as they would feel like they are making meaningful choices that have a noticeable impact on gameplay. This would make the progression system more compelling and encourage players to experiment with different character builds. Nobody feels good about having to spend a point in 5% more effectiveness in breaking stones or chopping trees, but it could be much more interesting if a character like Wolfgang could choose between more damage or more movespeed, or find a middle ground where he can deal a moderate amount of damage and maintain good movespeed, for example I certainly don't advocate leaving the characters with less than they have right now or making they just customizable Wilson, I believe downsides and important perks that are very characteristic should stay as they are, but for example a Wigfrid who prefers to focus more on being a bard who helps her own team immensely and decides to put aside her damage dealer and tanker side would not be losing, after all she chose to focus on something else, but if she wanted she could be the same old Wigfrid. Allowing her to specialize as a bard who supports her team rather than focusing solely on damage and tanking would give players the option to customize her gameplay to fit their desired role, without losing her original capabilities if she wants. This kind of flexibility would enhance the replayability of the game and cater to different playstyles and team compositions. Please share your opinions! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimbus3 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I like your idea and think it would be a nice compromise to all the arguments against "powercreeping" (with whomi wholly agree). The downsides of a character are just as much fun as the perks of a character imho. As a Warly main, i feel like not having to deal with crockpot dishes or variety would water down the character to the point where it would not be fun anymore. With all those super buffs that we are getting, how about getting them for a price ? After all we are kind of making a deal with "them" or with Charlie, it's not like they're angels. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 10 hours ago, Nimbus3 said: I like your idea and think it would be a nice compromise to all the arguments against "powercreeping" (with whomi wholly agree). The downsides of a character are just as much fun as the perks of a character imho. As a Warly main, i feel like not having to deal with crockpot dishes or variety would water down the character to the point where it would not be fun anymore. With all those super buffs that we are getting, how about getting them for a price ? After all we are kind of making a deal with "them" or with Charlie, it's not like they're angels. My idea is to keep the characters at the same level they already are at the very least, but give Klei the opportunity to experiment with whatever they want without having to restrict themselves to the character's current perks. Most of the characters that received the rework will not be able to receive almost anything because they already have enough to be attractive, like Wolfgang, and this can be a little frustrating. I think it would be very unpleasant to play as something, even if it's a strong character, and have to choose between 5% of something irrelevant while other characters have whole trees to customize their gameplay. I like to think this almost fits the much-suggested idea of being able to pick a drawback to get more points to spend on perks from the talent tree, but without actually picking a poison. You'd just be missing out on something good in favor of something else that might suit you better. I'm not even sure how easy it would be to implement new downsides for all characters either, I at least thinking alone can't come up with many interesting ideas for downsides, I prefer that the characters continue with the downsides that define each one as they already are in this case. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chincer Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I think the trees offer a change for both patch some things that are holding characters back (like woodie being unusable during moonstorms) and give a fair amount of player choice. An idea I like for Wanda is that her choice between lunar and shadow affect the way she deals her damage. Shadow just means her clock deal planar damage straight up buff to keep her in line with modern times. But lunar...would change her alarming clock into the lunar form, it would deal the same amount of damage as current but now the bonus occurs when Wanda is young rather than old, reversing her current glass Cannon playstyle. You get to choose between giving her more damage or focusing or survival by trading away her glass Cannon nature. They could even give her different clocks base on the focus, or make her choose three trees, young, middle or old One for utility one for combat and one just straight up middle of the pack Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, chincer said: I think the trees offer a change for both patch some things that are holding characters back (like woodie being unusable during moonstorms) and give a fair amount of player choice. An idea I like for Wanda is that her choice between lunar and shadow affect the way she deals her damage. Shadow just means her clock deal planar damage straight up buff to keep her in line with modern times. But lunar...would change her alarming clock into the lunar form, it would deal the same amount of damage as current but now the bonus occurs when Wanda is young rather than old, reversing her current glass Cannon playstyle. You get to choose between giving her more damage or focusing or survival by trading away her glass Cannon nature. They could even give her different clocks base on the focus, or make her choose three trees, young, middle or old One for utility one for combat and one just straight up middle of the pack My apprehension is that I believe that a character like Wanda will not be given anything and will be left with no big choices because she is already strong as hell, I can't believe that they would give her more strength and more security in the current terms, it's not like she isn't already the character with the highest damage, and continuing with the same damage and being completely safe would not be a choice, it's like choosing between good and great, I don't see any chance of that happening and if it happens, it would only be powercreep. But if she had to choose between that and having some of the watches she has, maybe? Even weak characters like Willow have some cause for concern, I know Woodie is great now with great options, but what if they decide to hold back on the pyromaniac part of her because they think it's a little too much since she already has a strong bear? Maybe pyromania isn't even a thing and they just focus on QoL for her bear etc... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Unpopular opinion : No I do not want skills to be mandatory picks.. which your suggestion will make them mandatory cause you want to cripple the characters to compensate for optional skills you can take. The characters themselves should remain as they are if one chooses to ignore the skill points thing. Unless you want to add downsides to picked skills themselves. Then yea it could work. Otherwise .. hell no. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 39 minutes ago, ALCRD said: The characters themselves should remain as they are if one chooses to ignore the skill points thing. Unless you want to add downsides to picked skills themselves. Then yea it could work. Otherwise .. hell no. As I suggested the character's current perk could be spread out within the tree, if the player prefers to have the standard experience with something else or not from the tree they have that option. It's really just an idea of how to improve the talent tree experience, if there aren't enough choices to make then why make a talent tree in the first place? I don't think Klei will go back on this so I'm looking for some way to improve the idea of giving us choices. But yes downsides can be implemented in this format as well, I was very superficial in the concept to give freedom in how the perks can be, which is my initial idea, to open space for more ideas without being held back by "This character has too much". Addendum: I want characters to keep parts of their kits, not become a Wilson that you can select perks from. It's basically the same idea as having downsides that you can select to get more points, but I'd like to avoid the possible situation where getting more points isn't really important, and in the end the character just spends everything in a branch with some good perk at the end of it and keeps everything, like Wolfgang, who only received more strong perks and didn't lose anything with it, even if he had an option to receive a downside for more points no one would do that because he has very few good options, it's not relevant having more, and if there were better options, 15 points would still be enough for him... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 39 minutes ago, xhyom said: if the player prefers to have the standard experience with something else or not from the tree they have that option. Doesn't look like i would have an option to NOT use any insight or else suffer from a worse than before character. Which i am against tooth and claw. At least as of now the insight skill tree stuff doesn’t affect the base character if one wants to opt out of it completely or play offline. The character remains as they were before addition of the skill trees. Your suggestion implies "nerfing" the base character and forces to use the insight perks to have your character be the same as before... So no i do not believe i have an option to opt out of it with your suggestion. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, ALCRD said: Doesn't look like i would have an option to NOT use any insight or else suffer from a worse than before character. Which i am against tooth and claw. At least as of now the insight skill tree stuff doesn’t affect the base character if one wants to opt out of it completely or play offline. The character remains as they were before addition of the skill trees. Your suggestion implies "nerfing" the base character and forces to use the insight perks to have your character be the same as before... So no i do not believe i have an option to opt out of it with your suggestion. It's quite possible to make a pre-made talent tree with the character's default options, that way you could also make your character weaker if you don't want anything either, it's just more options. It's not like the current tree or this one forces you to play with it open, it's something you select when choosing the character (Assuming you already have the points or select Default), interacting with an extra screen won't disgrace your experience. (Of course we also need to review how points are earned, I'm more or less talking as if most will already start with all points too, I haven't thought too deeply about it, but this is a discussion that has to happen regardless of how the tree works...) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradyne Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I like the spirit of this, though maybe alongside starting each char with a few points in default-unlocked skills for a basic starting point. I like to imagine things like Wortox speccing more into teleportation or healing, for example. ...and honestly...maybe setting a tree to remove one or two of Woodie's forms completely in exchange for boosting the other, or simply the factor of making random transformations less random. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toroic Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 As someone who has played wolf since the beginning, his 15% chance to crit while working is actually my favorite part of the new tree. It doesn't add that much power but it is fun Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 The major issue i am having with your suggestion. Is that it forces me to use the skill tree system. While the current one doesn't it's just optional additions and nothing is nerfed in the base character to compensate for these additions. You say your version gives more options well i cannot see it otherwise than it hindering my options. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 11 minutes ago, ALCRD said: The major issue i am having with your suggestion. Is that it forces me to use the skill tree system. While the current one doesn't it's just optional additions and nothing is nerfed in the base character to compensate for these additions. This is kind of the issue I'm having with Woodie's cursed tree and that I'm kinda afraid is going to happen to Walter, Winona, and Willow actually skills that improve their current lackluster state at the cost of being behind other characters with skill trees widening the gap further. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: This is kind of the issue I'm having with Woodie's cursed tree and that I'm kinda afraid is going to happen to Walter, Winona, and Willow actually skills that improve their current lackluster state at the cost of being behind other characters with skill trees widening the gap further. True but this suggestion is even worse it will actually nerf the character to make you use the skill trees more. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 15 minutes ago, maradyne said: I like the spirit of this, though maybe alongside starting each char with a few points in default-unlocked skills for a basic starting point. I like to imagine things like Wortox speccing more into teleportation or healing, for example. ...and honestly...maybe setting a tree to remove one or two of Woodie's forms completely in exchange for boosting the other, or simply the factor of making random transformations less random. Yeah, having some starting points might help with that "initial nerf" that I haven't thought about too much, as I'm thinking with the mindset of already having all the points from the beginning since they're saved between servers etc. But the idea is not to remove important parts of the character, since there are differences even between the characters' stats, it's not about, for example, removing Abigail from Wendy, but opening a gap that leaves more room for creativity in the next perks and less minuscule things that are only there to fill the tree. If Wortox had perhaps, not necessarily, less strength in healing from the start it would open up a gap that could be filled by an entirely new and strong ability, or he could make his healing even stronger than the current one if he chose not to select this new ability and focus on healing and something else, since Klei's initial idea is to really strengthen so there has to be spare points too 1 minute ago, ALCRD said: True but this suggestion is even worse it will actually nerf the character to make you use the skill trees more. Why would Klei waste time on an update that encourages you not to interact with the update? The suggestion is really to make people use the talent tree, giving people options to stay with the same characters they currently are. The intention is to improve the idea of the tree, I gave options on how to keep the characters as they are, the discussion is not about wanting the tree or not lol, there must be great topics out there about not wanting the tree with several arguments about how bad they are and must be deleted. I don't think that's going to happen anyway so I prefer something well done than half baked. The idea also comes from the title of the update being core enhancement, sprinkling a few things on the characters is not a change in the core Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 17 minutes ago, xhyom said: Why would Klei waste time on an update that encourages you not to interact with the update? The suggestion is really to make people use the talent tree, giving people options to stay with the same characters they currently are. The intention is to improve the idea of the tree, I gave options on how to keep the characters as they are, the discussion is not about wanting the tree or not lol, there must be great topics out there about not wanting the tree with several arguments about how bad they are and must be deleted. I don't think that's going to happen anyway so I prefer something well done than half baked. The idea also comes from the title of the update being core enhancement, sprinkling a few things on the characters is not a change in the core So screw people who play Offline yeah? Cause insight doesn't work in Offline mode afaik. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Variant Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 55 minutes ago, ALCRD said: The major issue i am having with your suggestion. Is that it forces me to use the skill tree system. OOPS LOL I'm in the wrong thread don't mind me. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
xhyom Posted July 11, 2023 Author Share Posted July 11, 2023 20 minutes ago, ALCRD said: So screw people who play Offline yeah? Cause insight doesn't work in Offline mode afaik. Yeah screw them! What the ****, I didn't even knew about that, i'm just making a suggestion, not programming for Klei Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradyne Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 32 minutes ago, ALCRD said: insight doesn't work in Offline mode afaik. that would be a bug/oversight Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 I love this idea, sometimes as wormwood I feel I have too many perks I don't use. Like blooming and seeing the carrots I planted glow up covering my whole screen in sparkles when I just wanted the sanity. I also sometimes love some of the challenges that come with playing wormwood and I could customize it to be more challenging (or not). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 1 hour ago, maradyne said: that would be a bug/oversight Are you absolutely 100% sure it's a bug/oversight and not intentional due to how the insight works? (persists between worlds/servers) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 4 hours ago, HowlVoid said: I also sometimes love some of the challenges that come with playing wormwood and I could customize it to be more challenging (or not). Yep, after mastering the "no healing from food" downside which is just a change in gameplay adding some extra challenge would be cool, more than just "enemies do more damage". Still dislike the skill trees but if all characters were effectively wilson with customizable upsides and downsides based on the character that would be so much fun. I could finally play Woodie and not use the curses! I hate the curses they should be negatives and feared like the werebeaver is in Don't Starve Solo. Powerful and useful but with a major downside (dropping everything and can activate when cutting too many trees) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradyne Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 4 hours ago, ALCRD said: Are you absolutely 100% sure it's a bug/oversight and not intentional due to how the insight works? A core game mechanic being inaccessible offline when the game generally functions offline would be a bug/oversight, yes, if that's what's happening. 4 hours ago, ALCRD said: (persists between worlds/servers) Given that Insights are unlockable instantly by anyone, this would presumably only be relevant for something like syncing unlocked points to a player's profile in case they move machines. If it were something relating to this, failing when unable to connect would still be a bug/oversight, yes. And...if you've experienced the issue, you should probably report it. thank you for coming to my talk ted Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALCRD Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 56 minutes ago, maradyne said: A core game mechanic being inaccessible offline when the game generally functions offline would be a bug/oversight, yes, if that's what's happening. Given that Insights are unlockable instantly by anyone, this would presumably only be relevant for something like syncing unlocked points to a player's profile in case they move machines. If it were something relating to this, failing when unable to connect would still be a bug/oversight, yes. And...if you've experienced the issue, you should probably report it. thank you for coming to my talk ted So in other words no you aren't sure. Just speculating. It is not the first time DST would have something that doesn't quite work offline as it does online due to how game handles it. (unlocked characters , solo worlds made when online) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamboyant wolf Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 41 minutes ago, ALCRD said: So in other words no you aren't sure. Just speculating. It is not the first time DST would have something that doesn't quite work offline as it does online due to how game handles it. (unlocked characters , solo worlds made when online) Unlocked characters(and skins) do work in offline now(iirc that was added last summer). Well, it works most of the time. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149216-suggestion-remove-some-characters-upsides-in-favor-of-costumization/#findComment-1648905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.
Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.