Planar enemies SHOULD be hard to fight

[Reiko24]

I don't think adding any skills to increase DMG against planar enemies is alright.

 

The whole point of planar damage and planar defense was to make the game HARDER, right?

 

So why make it easier again?

If someone was good enough to beat Celestial Champion or Ancient Fuelweaver, they will certainly beat the new planar enemies, there's no need to buff their damage with skill trees.

I hope that if we are going in this direction, then only Wolfgang gets this skill. Planar enemies were supposed to be a challenge, but now they get obliterated by the new Wolfgang...

If more of the characters get this perk, then this whole mechanic was just worthless, and I liked it when it wasn't.

Don't be afraid to add enemies that are very hard to kill, that's the point of the game, right?

[xhyom]

13 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

If more of the characters get this perk, then this whole mechanic was just worthless, and I liked it when it wasn't.

Completely agree, still I think I would like to see Warly getting some planar damage when HE (Not other players/Characters) eats a food with some of his spice, so there would be a reason to actually play as him and not just cook until he fills a fridge then change character.

[Danila6300]

But if you do not add planar damage to Wolfgang, then it will become irrelevant at the end of the game. Rather, it is easier to completely remove weapons with planar damage.

[Antynomity]

22 minutes ago, Danila6300 said:

But if you do not add planar damage to Wolfgang, then it will become irrelevant at the end of the game. Rather, it is easier to completely remove weapons with planar damage.

He still does more damage, either make so modifiers affect planar damage somewhat so Wolfgang can still do it or remove it altogether, in no world should a huge chunk of his skill tree be dedicated to solving a problem that shouldn't exist to begin with.

[Reiko24]

23 minutes ago, Danila6300 said:

But if you do not add planar damage to Wolfgang, then it will become irrelevant at the end of the game. Rather, it is easier to completely remove weapons with planar damage.

1. He still does more damage.

2. The value he brought through the whole game is significant. 2 times less weapons and armor to bring to fights, along with healing. A couple planar enemies is his weak point, and he still is stronger in it than other characters.

38 minutes ago, xhyom said:

Completely agree, still I think I would like to see Warly getting some planar damage when HE (Not other players/Characters) eats a food with some of his spice, so there would be a reason to actually play as him and not just cook until he fills a fridge then change character.

Yea, and when he tries to feed others the spice he would say "The Queen wouldn't allow this." or something.

[goatt]

Instead of making brightshade easier to fight, game should introduce mechanics to deal with them semi-automatically. Because brightshade waves are infinite and the main problem is repetitiveness and tedium, as if someone planted a spider den in your base.

 

So not more damage, but more meaningful interactions.

(even tho i do know several ways to semi-auto farm them)

[Reiko24]

26 minutes ago, goatt said:

Instead of making brightshade easier to fight, game should introduce mechanics to deal with them semi-automatically. Because brightshade waves are infinite and the main problem is repetitiveness and tedium, as if someone planted a spider den in your base.

 

So not more damage, but more meaningful interactions.

(even tho i do know several ways to semi-auto farm them)

wormwood + dragonfruit + lava ponds

[Danila6300]

3 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

He still does more damage.

How much more damage does it do?

3 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

Yea, and when he tries to feed others the spice he would say "The Queen wouldn't allow this." or something.

I also think that he should have special features only for himself, but I think that he should not be deprived of the opportunity to help the team.

2 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

wormwood + dragonfruit + lava ponds

Not everyone likes to change characters (I don't either). I think you can add additional mobs that will give the same resources, and reduce the number of carnivorous plants. 

[Antynomity]

7 minutes ago, Danila6300 said:

How much more damage does it do?

you play wolfgang for damage, he does more damage, that's what matters

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, Danila6300 said:

 

Not everyone likes to change characters (I don't either). I think you can add additional mobs that will give the same resources, and reduce the number of carnivorous plants. 

Anyone can plant dragon fruits around the lava ponds, Wormwood just doesn't have to till / hoe first.

14 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

you play wolfgang for damage, he does more damage, that's what matters

How much damage is quite important.  Wigfrid deals +25% damage yet its also hardly noticeable because its not hitting any major thresholds.  Wolfgang's 2x damage brings a darksword up to >100 range which is pretty significant.  This is kinda the problem with nerfing Wolfgang's damage.  Its nearly his entire kit, to be so focused on damage its not enough to simply deal "more," you have to deal enough "more damage" that it is worth while picking him for just that.  Once planar sets in its no longer worth being Wolfgang because his damage, the reason you pick him is taken away.  The skill tree just sells it back to you really.  Kinda sucks because its all quite artificial, a game of mathematical slight of hand.  "Oh he's nerfed, oh nvm buy these skills."

[Antynomity]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

The skill tree just sells it back to you really.  Kinda sucks because its all quite artificial, a game of mathematical slight of hand.  "Oh he's nerfed, oh nvm buy these skills."

That's the issue, and it won't go away because from what I've seen the huge majority supports this kind of BS game design. Such a sad fate.

[Danila6300]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Anyone can plant dragon fruits around the lava ponds, Wormwood just doesn't have to till / hoe first.

To be honest, I don't really want to play like that. 

[goatt]

10 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

That's the issue, and it won't go away because from what I've seen the huge majority supports this kind of BS game design. Such a sad fate.

I think the community's opinion is evolving in the last few days.

The poll had 126+, 40-, 76% positive rate

Now it's 171+, 65-, 72% positive rate.

Meaning latest votes are 45+, 25-, only 64% positive rate.

I believe if we re-do the poll, the result may be below 64%.

 

I think the community's perception is changing because many latest criticisms do make good sense. I know myself has changed from positive to negative.

[Antynomity]

Just now, goatt said:

I think the community's opinion is evolving in the last few days.

The poll had 126+, 40-, 76% positive rate

Now it's 171+, 65-, 72% positive rate.

Meaning latest votes are 45+, 25-, only 64% positive rate.

 

I think the community's perception is changing because many latest criticisms do make good sense. I know myself has changed from positive to negative.

I don't think it will sadly change much, it's way too far past changing, so many updates would have to be changed and I don't see Klei EVER doing any big major changes to all of that.

[Milordo]

30 minutes ago, goatt said:

I think the community's opinion is evolving in the last few days.

The poll had 126+, 40-, 76% positive rate

Now it's 171+, 65-, 72% positive rate.

Meaning latest votes are 45+, 25-, only 64% positive rate.

I believe if we re-do the poll, the result may be below 64%.

 

I think the community's perception is changing because many latest criticisms do make good sense. I know myself has changed from positive to negative.

While I'm glad the community perception is changing, the problem remains, which is Klei.

Klei is not comunicating with us. Klei is not talking with us. We are making assumptions on why they're doing all of this and yes okay, it's very easy to understand why they're doing (marketing, casual players from other games, bla bla bla...) but we still don't know why, when, what. People being confused (as I) that Wilson will not be the only one with the skill tree, it's already a proof how there is almost zero communication with Klei

That's why I wanted the community to be together and comprehensive and not divisive, cause we could be louder and louder, until we receive something, instead of hoping of some answer like searching for UFO's on space. Even if it is worthless because the higher-ups in suit and tie say "this is not profitable" or whatever otherworldy ideas they have and will not listen to us, I will still fight and not giving up, after 10 years of loving this game.

[Yuuko]

22 minutes ago, Milordo said:

While I'm glad the community perception is changing, the problem remains, which is Klei.

Klei is not comunicating with us. Klei is not talking with us. We are making assumptions on why they're doing all of this and yes okay, it's very easy to understand why they're doing (marketing, casual players from other games, bla bla bla...) but we still don't know why, when, what. People being confused (as I) that Wilson will not be the only one with the skill tree, it's already a proof how there is almost zero communication with Klei

That's why I wanted the community to be together and comprehensive and not divisive, cause we could be louder and louder, until we receive something, instead of hoping of some answer like searching for UFO's on space. Even if it is worthless because the higher-ups in suit and tie say "this is not profitable" or whatever otherworldy ideas they have and will not listen to us, I will still fight and not giving up, after 10 years of loving this game.

Funny b/c Klei has been communicating in the way Klei does.  They don't post on their forums much, they don't response personally often, which is all actually for the better because it allows them to gather all of our feedback, see the merits of our arguments etc, and allows them to make their decisions based on that without getting into the weeds and mud with us.  They do their podcast following each patch and give out more details and information there.  Things like everyone getting a skill tree, deployable umbraella etc were hinted at there in a pretty obvious way.  They didn't come out and say it plainly, but when they followed up the Wilson release with "Wilson is making a choice, everyone will be making choices" I expected exactly what we got this patch.  Skill trees for everyone, Woodie getting perks to mitigate his downsides which were more detrimental to him then anyone especially with the CC being put front and center in the new content, and Wolfgang getting his power sold back to him.

Do I like what they've done?  No.  I still think Planar is garbo, and selling Wolfgang his power back is basically taxing him points to be default Wolfgang which... I mean yeah he does a lot of damage but he really isn't that great of a character tbh.  Looking at Maxwell these days there is practically no reason to play Wolfgang anymore even for damages.  I won't be surprised in the slightest when they get to Maxwell and just overload him with even more OP BS either lol.  idk why the hate boner for Wolfgang but my boy getting it bad these days lol

[_zwb]

The new planar mobs aren't difficult to kill by any means, it seems difficult only because they lock the only items that are effective against them behind themselves, which is the opposite of literally any other challenge in this game.

[abrocator]

If you want new enemies to be harder to kill health-wise then you deploy an age-old game design technique: give them more HP.

Planar damage is just pointless. I can demonstrate this by giving a hypothetical: what about the content that comes after these planar damage enemies? The ones that are supposed to be harder than them? You could make a new damage system named “foppercrumble”. All damage that is not foppercrumble will be ineffective against enemies that use foppercrumble.

Then the content after that: lopsgirdbutter.

Then the challenge consists of having four different kits:

• Normal
• Planar
• Foppercrumble
• Lopsgirdbutter

But why?

—

If you really care about new gear not “trivializing” old content then, uh, well this is what Klei has done for most items already: side-grades. An eyemask is not a straight upgrade to football helmets since football helmets are better when you need like eight of them. Bone armor is not great for two-or-more attacks since it only blocks the first (sharks). And on and on.

[Capybara007]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

I think the community's perception is changing because many latest criticisms do make good sense. 

That is because in the first days of the beta there were no good arguments against skill trees, just outrage against the mere idea of them, many unfair analogies also popped up like saying dst is the new mmo world of warcraft (mmo does not have anything to do with skill trees)

just like people were not unhappy about the skill trees but the idea of skill trees themselves, i am also not happy because of skill trees, i am happy because of the mindset klei has of actually evolving the game and at the same time reworking existing content, like characters

i used to think characters re reworks were not gonna be a thing but here we are, maybe that dream of bosses reworks isnt too far either

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Funny b/c Klei has been communicating in the way Klei does.  They don't post on their forums much, they don't response personally often, which is all actually for the better because it allows them to gather all of our feedback, see the merits of our arguments etc, and allows them to make their decisions based on that without getting into the weeds and mud with us.  They do their podcast following each patch and give out more details and information there.  Things like everyone getting a skill tree, deployable umbraella etc were hinted at there in a pretty obvious way.  They didn't come out and say it plainly, but when they followed up the Wilson release with "Wilson is making a choice, everyone will be making choices" I expected exactly what we got this patch.  Skill trees for everyone, Woodie getting perks to mitigate his downsides which were more detrimental to him then anyone especially with the CC being put front and center in the new content, and Wolfgang getting his power sold back to him.

Do I like what they've done?  No.  I still think Planar is garbo, and selling Wolfgang his power back is basically taxing him points to be default Wolfgang which... I mean yeah he does a lot of damage but he really isn't that great of a character tbh.  Looking at Maxwell these days there is practically no reason to play Wolfgang anymore even for damages.  I won't be surprised in the slightest when they get to Maxwell and just overload him with even more OP BS either lol.  idk why the hate boner for Wolfgang but my boy getting it bad these days lol

1) I should follow more their podcast. I was very busy during spring and even now, in fact I still don't know anything about the new end game thingy and couldn't play the game. I occasionaly pop-up in the forums.

2) I don't like very much this approach of Klei staying silent without some words, especially if they had a famous good past of interacting with the community.

3) I knew about some podcast where they said characters getting new rewards on this new end-game, but correct if am I wrong, wasn't "they will get new powers in some form or another" the announcement?. This means they never hinted characters to have skill trees and obtaining these new powers at the end-game (completely the opposite of now, where it's all early-game) in other means.

4) I don't think podcast should be their only way of communication, because it doesn't really give an official news to the community as showed from the surprise of almost everybody.

5) 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

 They didn't come out and say it plainly, but when they followed up the Wilson release with "Wilson is making a choice, everyone will be making choices" 

Can you find me this note? I don't remember it and maybe I didn't noticed it.

6) Even though I never liked or cared for Wolfgang, I still feel absolutely 100% the sadness of a character left in the corner while withering away. It's the worst and fills you up with rage, cause you know...if they cared and focused about said character there wouldn't be those problems.

I though about Maxwell.... I already thought yesterday about his skill tree.... oh lord jesus.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, Milordo said:

2) I don't like very much this approach of Klei staying silent without some words, especially if they had a famous good past of interacting with the community.

I think Klei does it that way because over-communicating, especially entering into 2 way communication can become very toxic and unproductive fast, as well as entrench Klei into bad designs because of divisive conversations.  Its better that Klei communicates less, and uses 1 way communication but silently reads what we say and takes that as feedback.

If it were only 1 way communication without taking feedback - a common problem with large companies like Blizzard etc - then it would be a problem, but they really do listen to feedback.  They don't always change the game based on feedback because they may not agree with it, but when they do - when the arguments have merit - they have changed the game and imo they tend to make the game better over time in spite of their mistakes.

12 minutes ago, Milordo said:

5) 

Can you find me this note? I don't remember it and maybe I didn't noticed it.

 

sry I don't recall exactly where it was, but I would recommend watching the replays of their Rhymes with Play casts.  They are pretty fun and informative on how Klei sees things.

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

just like people were not unhappy about the skill trees but the idea of skill trees themselves, i am also not happy because of skill trees, i am happy because of the mindset klei has of actually evolving the game and at the same time reworking existing content, like characters

wish they were so willing to rework bad updates and areas of the game like the entirety of the ocean, majority of the caves, or outdated biomes / merge multiple so there's not as many duplicate biomes with a few small or big differences when they could have been one.

[goatt]

7 hours ago, Milordo said:

Klei is not comunicating with us

I think it’s because it’s weekend? Let’s wait a few more days and see.

[Theukon-dos]

13 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

The whole point of planar damage and planar defense was to make the game HARDER, right?

And there's the problem. Planar mechanics don't make the game harder. They serve as a gate to make people dump all the dark swords and football helmets they've been using for the last decade without actually making it organic. Sure it might be a pretty big road bump when you first open the rifts and have to fight planar enemies without and P-Damage or P-Defense, They're hard because they have a tendancy to swarm you and deal a lot of damage. If I took a spider and gave it planar defense, you're not going to call it harder just because it takes 3x the hits to kill if your sword isn't shiny enough. 

[Wonz]

True hard is not how long you can repeat the same tactic but how difficult it's to perform it. Damage makes it shorter but if facetanking would kill you then you have to put some effort to go around the danger. What's the difference if dragonfly had as much health as she has or half of that? Fight would be shorter but it's still just as difficult to avoid her attacks, not really harder/easier but you'd need less preparations. That's how wolfgang feels unless he managed to knock her out. 

Just enough damage/enemy HP so you cannot facetank is what stands between "Whoops powercreep" and "You've got to learn the enemy and put skill and effort into it".