Brightshade economy is abysmal

[maxwell_winters]

There is so much grind to get the brightshade gear. It's so hard to get a decent amount of husks and even the ones you get are used up so quickly.

The best way to kill the Brightshade is with the Brightshade sword. Everything else takes way too long. The problem is that a character with default damage (I can't even say Wilson because he has damage modifiers now, so a Willow), uses around 16% durability of the sword to kill one single plant. It means the sword is only enough to kill 6 plants. You invest 3 husks, you get 6 in return, 3 of which you have to use to craft the sword again. And you also need the armor, so if your helmet breaks, you'll also need to give 2 husks for that. 

On top of that, you need pick/axes or Brightshade pickaxes to farm Pure Brilliance. So you'll regularly need either to do a quick detour to the Pseudoscience station to craft an item you wouldn't craft if it didn't gate keep the content, or put 2 more husks.

It all creates a loop where you craft a gear to kill one specific mob but you barely have enough loot to use it for another purposes. And you want the gear to be used for another purpose because it has damage modifier for shadows.

For comparison, if you invest into a dark sword, you can kill around 20 shadows with it and get 30 NF. It's 6 times more than you invested. You can kill an infinite amount of werepigs with a hambat to return the resources. Considering this, getting materials for Brightshade gear is abysmal.

You should increase the amount of husks dropped or lower the HP of Brightshades. Or better do both. Otherwise, the Brightshade gear would stay something players never use unless they're forced to. 

EDIT. I wanna add my rant about the brightshade pickaxe. So, you finished the entire CC quest line, so that you can craft a pickaxe that's almost identical in use to something you can craft much earlier. Except it's worse because it's only half the function of the pick/axe and requires you to kill 2 damage-spongy mobs.

[lakhnish]

1 hour ago, maxwell_winters said:

The best way to kill the Brightshade is with the Brightshade sword. Everything else takes way too long. The problem is that a character with default damage (I can't even say Wilson because he has damage modifiers now, so a Willow), uses around 16% durability of the sword to kill one single plant. It means the sword is only enough to kill 6 plants. You invest 3 husks, you get 6 in return, 3 of which you have to use to craft the sword again.

This was my exact experience trying to farm the new plants.

For the Pure Brilliance, I just ended up using Weather Pains since they do the job very well lmao.

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, lakhnish said:

For the Pure Brilliance, I just ended up using Weather Pains since they do the job very well lmao.

I used a default Pickaxe, not even gold. It takes a while but gets the job done no problem.

But yes, Brightshades have too much HP and are too clustered together.

[Electroely]

I have the same issue with Brightshades. I'm actually kind of growing fond of them, but they're just wayyy too time consuming to constantly deal with. They need a significant reduction in HP for both the vine and the plant itself

[GrapeVruit]

Either they drop more husks or make the items like obsidian gear and have them cost 1-2 husks. 

[Antynomity]

17 minutes ago, GrapeVruit said:

Either they drop more husks or make the items like obsidian gear and have them cost 1-2 husks. 

better for brightshades to drop more husks so we can dupe them more effectively 

[WolfoIsBestWolf]

Maybe the HP could be reduced and like 1.25 as a drop rate, and then it'd be okay if multiple spawn closer together.

With the high HP they really need a spawn cap, minimum distance apart and like at least 2 as a drop.

[maxwell_winters]

2 hours ago, WolfoIsBestWolf said:

then it'd be okay if multiple spawn closer together.

The problem with them spawning close to each other is that when one plant loses its shield and you come closer to damage it, the other ones immediately start smacking you with vines. In that case, it's best to use the Brightshade bombs which are too expensive considering you have to put 4 husks in order to kill 1-2 plants.

9 hours ago, Electroely said:

They need a significant reduction in HP for both the vine and the plant itself

I think they should have 600 HP (now they have 1000), so you can kill them with 10% of the brightshade sword. 

[Electroely]

6 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

I think they should have 600 HP (now they have 1000), so you can kill them with 10% of the brightshade sword. 

On my own modded world, I lowered their HP to 500 and the HP of their vine to 100 (halved both), and now I'm having a much more enjoyable time with them.

[Dragonboooorn]

Tbh, all new crafting stuff arent even worth making in any situation. They extra expensive and have cheaper existing alternatives, that in some cases are even better.

Staff is a joke, wont use it ever. Every new crafting items should be buffed or somehow should get exclusive perk to make these tools usable

Blowing other players with bomb is fun tho

[maxwell_winters]

54 minutes ago, Dragonboooorn said:

Tbh, all new crafting stuff arent even worth making in any situation. They extra expensive and have cheaper existing alternatives, that in some cases are even better.

I gotta agree on this one. It seems like Klei had been designing mid-game items for so long that they don't understand what the late game rewards should be like. So far, it's like "kill Crab King, finish Pearl's quests, do moonstone and moonstorm, kill CC, and get your reward.... glorified reskins of items you could've crafted in the first autumn. Except you also need to kill a ton of 1000 hp mobs with damage resistance and attacks that pierce through your armor".

I do hope they will buff the items to justify all the effort you have to go through to get them.

[dois raios]

Maybe those items were made with the idea "fun because is fun"

Because they appear to be normal (considering the effort to make them) and expensive.

Edit: when I said normal, i mean not that strong

[Gashzer]

On 4/11/2023 at 2:38 AM, maxwell_winters said:

Snip

Well i think the problem is you are treating the new brightshade weapons and armour as replacements to the current equipment for every situation.

When its not! The brightshade equipments primary function, is as you say, to fight the new plants. Fighting the plants without the equipment is much harder for every character regardless of damage buffs.

Not every piece of equipment needs to/is meant to be easily farmable. Just use brightshade stuff for dealing with the new rift threats and use standard equipment for everything else as per normal. Treat any leftover brightshade equipment as a bonus.

[Dextops]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

When its not! The brightshade equipments primary function, is as you say, to fight the new plants. Fighting the plants without the equipment is much harder for every character regardless of damage buffs.

People know this. They just don’t agree with this design cause it’s not good and/or fun. You kill cc and get a punishment with no reward other than having the ability to get rid of that punishment easier. People want buffs badly because they’re pretty pathetically mid. Them being later game content but be slightly above average in specific scenarios and the game forcing you to use them isn’t really good design imo and it just doesn’t feel like it’s worth all the effort.

[Gashzer]

10 minutes ago, Dextops said:

People know this. They just don’t agree with this design cause it’s not good and/or fun. You kill cc and get a punishment with no reward other than having the ability to get rid of that punishment easier. People want buffs badly because they’re pretty pathetically mid. Them being later game content but be slightly above average in specific scenarios and the game forcing you to use them isn’t really good design imo and it just doesn’t feel like it’s worth all the effort.

Yeah, the game should get harder the more success people have at surviving and killing bosses. The rift is like hound waves 2.0. It is a punishment not a farming opportunity. And just like the hound waves, if you dont like em just disable them in the world settings.

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah, the game should get harder the more success people have at surviving and killing bosses. The rift is like hound waves 2.0. It is a punishment not a farming opportunity. And just like the hound waves, if you dont like em just disable them in the world settings.

No, it’s more like disease than hound attacks. They’re unavoidable and almost no solution to their nuisance. Saying “if you don’t like it turn it off” is a bad argument because that doesn’t solve anything. The rift is still currently poorly designed and it seems like a lot of people agree with that sentiment so it’d be much better if they actually changed it so it could be enjoyable by more people and the rewards you got from those rifts was actually worthwhile instead of punishing you for killing cc. This isn’t good game design when you need to kill a late game boss just to receive a major annoyance for no good reason with no good drops to gain from it.

[cropo]

In SP DS the ruins were a huge turning point for the player. Everything they used came at a cost, had massive sanity penalties(which mattered at the time) and low durability etc. The ruins was an end game area that introduced truly remarkable items(again, at the time).  A pickaxe that was a flat upgrade to the traditional tools, a staff that could create a lightsource at will(one of the core issues new players had). Items that allowed duplication and discounts on crafting. An armor set that was undeniably better than nearly everything else with no sanity downsides(even an upside!). A weapon that was only slightly weaker than the more penalizing dark sword, with an added speed bonus and special ability...the ability to make a turret that automatically fires at enemies and regenerates it's own health...a necklace that made you faster and eternally bright that never expired due to being refueled..

 

Going through the ruins was challenging and very exciting. The loot it gave was an awesome reward, and the ruins itself was designed well. Insanity creatures would rush you infinitely and attack you regardless of sanity, mobs that would not fight you directly and punish poor inventory management, decently powered mobs that safe-guarded key areas of the ruins. The ruins are perfect, a challenging area that takes off the training wheels the average player faced up to that point and rewarding full mastery of it.

 

In comparison we have ''lunar content''.  A new underground area that has mobs in it that are to be avoided, and are deadly when provoked. A grueling maze requiring you to solve various memory puzzles, an unforgiving ecosystem of strange creatures that often break the combat traditions and are generally tougher to fight and more punishing to lose against. What does the player get? A decoration crafting station(which is good) and a small treasure that merely guides you to the next grueling objective. Some goofy way to produce thulecite that is painfully tedious to suffer through, and a biome that becomes inhospitable the moment you finish the ''quest'' in it. As well as some food ingredients that make dishes purely designed to remove the tedious mechanics of some of the creatures in that area.

 

We get the most annoying fetch quest system for an annoying crab halfway across the ocean that leads us to carrying very heavy and slow objects, a much weaker fishing system that is far more difficult to use than the one we already had that only serves to time-gate you on a year-long quest to suffer through the ocean(mandatory, there is no optional way to skip these quests). For an item that you must use, to buff a boss that was designed to be customizable based on gem imput to face it at full power....to get a mediocre trident and yet another heavy object you must painstakingly drag across a hostile island to slot in. 

After all this is done, we get an eternal lunar moon that causes the game to become incredibly hostile, with more annoying memory-quest fetching parts for Wagstaff while being assaulted by raids of annoying enemies, that we must do multiple times(and we pretty much NEED bundling wraps because the parts for the CC expire so quickly). We fight an incredibly tough boss after doing yet another fetch quest to build the ritual to summon him, only to have Wagstaff say ''Thanks, loser, cya, thanks for the stuff''. You get a nice crown, I'll give them that...

 

And it culminates into the ''amazing'' experience of getting lunar drive-by's with annoying mobs that completely ignore traditional game mechanics and introduce new frustrating damage types, devaluing characters that specialize in damage dealing. Mining rocks very slowly, getting extremely weak amounts of resources as we do this...and what do we get? A sub-par set of gear that is specifically made only for making doing battle with this specific threat slightly easier, with a minor damage bonus to shadow creatures. 

 

 

I personally think this game is highly overdue for a ''ruins 2.0'' experience, where a genuinely challenging and fun area must be mastered, and at the end the player is rewarded with revolutionary items that shake up the game like the ruins did back then. I wanted this with the volcano in Shipwrecked, but it never happened. I wanted this in Hamlet, with the temple explorations, but it never happened. I really hoped there would be a sort of ''lunar ruins'' in this string of updates, but so far that has not happened.  I don't even think most of the new mobs and enemies and quests are fun, Pearls quest is agonizing to the point I just started cheating in the pearl after a few years of playing. I don't think most of the systems they've introduced as of late are ''fun'', and the rewards are just....soooo mediocre and often outright bad.

[Gashzer]

18 minutes ago, Dextops said:

No, it’s more like disease than hound attacks. They’re unavoidable and almost no solution to their nuisance. Saying “if you don’t like it turn it off” is a bad argument because that doesn’t solve anything. The rift is still currently poorly designed and it seems like a lot of people agree with that sentiment so it’d be much better if they actually changed it so it could be enjoyable by more people and the rewards you got from those rifts was actually worthwhile instead of punishing you for killing cc. This isn’t good game design when you need to kill a late game boss just to receive a major annoyance for no good reason with no good drops to gain from it.

"Punishing you for killing cc" if you can kill cc then you have proven to be really really good at the game hence new challenges should be presented to us. Yeah a bit of tweaking to the rifts is needed. 

But going back to the topic of the thread, klei shouldnt go out of the way to make the brightshade equipment easily farmable, the bombs are incredibly strong as is. Brightshade is to fight the new rift threats and secondary function to fight shadows aligned stuff. 

I do believe we need a way to close the rifts before they can expand and spread plants everywhere or maybe the new plants die off (no loot drop) over a period of time if not killed.

But the brightshade gear definitely shouldnt be a replacement to dark swords or thulecite gear for general use situations atleast.

Edit: i like the new damage resist mechanics, they are breaking the standard combat norms and forcing players to craft and use the new stuff rather than just dark sword/hambat everything with thulecite crowns.

Hope klei continues this path, it could be done abit better ofc but this update is klei testing the waters around these new mechanics, but they are on the right track to mixing the game up!

[maxwell_winters]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

When its not! The brightshade equipments primary function, is as you say, to fight the new plants. Fighting the plants without the equipment is much harder for every character regardless of damage buffs.

Then why does it have buffs against shadow-aligned enemies? If Klei didn't want us to use it against anything else, why would they add it?

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Just use brightshade stuff for dealing with the new rift threats and use standard equipment for everything else as per normal. Treat any leftover brightshade equipment as a bonus.

That is not enjoyable gameplay loop. 

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

you are treating the new brightshade weapons and armour as replacements to the current equipment for every situation.

Not every situation but I would at the very least use it to fight shadow bosses if it wasn't such a pain to farm.

[Gashzer]

11 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

Then why does it have buffs against shadow-aligned enemies? If Klei didn't want us to use it against anything else, why would they add it?

Fits the lore. 

11 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

That is not enjoyable gameplay loop. 

Yeah it needs abit of tweaking but the rift idea is good. Klei needs to introduce more "unavoidable" threats. Im sick and tired of optional raid bosses. I want the world of the constant to evolve overtime and get harder to survive in. This update is a step in the right direction.

 

11 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

Not every situation but I would at the very least use it to fight shadow bosses if it wasn't such a pain to farm.

You only need at absolute max, 2 swords. You telling me you cant farm 2 brightshade swords per shadow boss atm? 

[maxwell_winters]

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You only need at absolule max, 2 swords. You telling me you cant farm 2 brightshade swords per shadow boss atm? 

I would also want both armor pieces since they buff the attacks, too.

Don't tell me about NF farming. Killing Terrorbeaks in 5 hits instead of 6 isn't enough of a reward to justify the grind.

[Gashzer]

14 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

I would also want both armor pieces since they buff the attacks, too.

Don't tell me about NF farming. Killing Terrorbeaks in 5 hits instead of 6 isn't enough of a reward to justify the grind.

Shouldnt be using brightshade swords for basic mobs like terrorbeaks. Using the armour and sword you can almost kill ancient fuelweaver with only one brightshade sword!

So you dont need to farm 1047948920830 million brightshade stuff. You only need a couple of each piece of equipment spare. One construction amulet would sort you out for gear for killing ancient fuelweaver 3-4 times.

 

[Vinja]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Well i think the problem is you are treating the new brightshade weapons and armour as replacements to the current equipment for every situation.

When its not! The brightshade equipments primary function, is as you say, to fight the new plants. Fighting the plants without the equipment is much harder for every character regardless of damage buffs.

Not every piece of equipment needs to/is meant to be easily farmable. Just use brightshade stuff for dealing with the new rift threats and use standard equipment for everything else as per normal. Treat any leftover brightshade equipment as a bonus.

It’s not fun to unlock this really awesome looking fairly expensive new sword and finally obtaining the materials to craft it and you fairly assume “wow this sword is gonna be epic, I can’t wait to see how strong it is” and then you walk around fighting random mobs to test it out only to find out that there’s actually no noticeable difference between this weapon and other weapons that are far cheaper besides the fact that it’s kills the new plants faster. What a massive let down. The new update is a really cool idea and I love the concept and design but man Klei took a major L with this new gear. The new staff is a cool idea but sucks, new shovel is way too expensive for a gold reskin, new sword is yet another glorified dark sword that’s super expensive with the added benefit of weed whacking. Love Klei but I’m really skeptical of what exactly they’re trying to accomplish here.

[maxwell_winters]

50 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

One construction amulet would sort you out for gear for killing ancient fuelweaver 3-4 times.

Construction amulet is a bonus you can choose to use. It shouldn't be the best way to get gear because obtaining it normally is a grind. If something is too grindy, it should be addressed in normal recipes and loot drops. We shouldn't put a green amulet band-aid on a broken arm.

Just because something is a threat to your survival, it doesn't mean beating it shouldn't give you good loot. Hounds give you a good supply of meat, gems and teeth for sewing kits. Depth worms give you more meat than you can carry and fuel for moggles. 

I didn't ask for Brightshade to become a basic late game gear I would kill volt goats and spiders with. But even farming husks for special occasions like bosses takes way too long, considering how ridiculously low the returns from investing into brightshade swords are.

[maxwell_winters]

Update. One plant now uses 14% of the Brightshade sword durability. That's enough to kill 7 plants. They drop 2 husks each, so the return from 1 sword is now 11 husks. 

Grind is no more