Missable Achievements

[nudelsoup]

Any plans to fix the missable achievements? Should be easy enough, and would cause a lot less grief for completionists.

My suggestions would be to change carnivore to only count red meat, and skip the timer. Same for locavore, counting the 3 default fruits only, with no timer and no building restrictions. Super Sustainable could follow a similar recipe, by only tracking manual generators, losing the hard requirement of not constructing other power plants. This would mean we could save them for later, at the risk of stressing the dupes when facing poor food quality.

IMO the main problem of these 3 is that they severely affect the starting strategy, and especially Super Sustainable causes a massive delay on transitioning to the midgame, usually requiring between 300 and 400 cycles. Perhaps even more in Spaced Out, since we lack diamond on the starting planetoid. Also, my previous game I had a lot of flatulent dupes, but I was unable to do anything with the natural gas, letting it just pile up in a box using the flask emptier.

Mostly I just find it annoying that I can't try out new ways to do stuff, especially in the early game. There is only one correct route if chasing 100% completion, and that's to go balls deep in ranching, and not really do anything but watch the dupes cycle for 15+ hours.  My current game is at cycle 98, and carnivore is impossible, which makes me question a lot of things, since the only thing I did differently this time is fewer hatches due to layout issues. Still, my dupes have been feeding on barbeque only for ~20 cycles or so, so it's not the meat output that's the problem. Either way, I'm now considering whether or not to roll back 40 cycles or so, but it's more likely that I just take a break until starting a new game.

I think my above suggestions would be a good way to alter the achievements so we can chase them down later, at our own peril.

[SackMaggie]

Sure it was hard, but not so much after getting a hang of it (It's possible even with max difficulty and one free hatch)

Here are some tips.

1. Get electrolyzer up ASAP you need hydrogen, Build it into SPOM later.
2. Always pick dupe till you have 8 or 16 of them.
3. Prepare ranch room early <15 cycle (no need a full room) and first dupe that hit 2 point must be a temporary rancher.
4. Finish your SPOM it will be your power/oxygen.
5. You need 2 cookers (mush bar all day) for 8 dupe and 3 for 16 dupes (due to high skill level)
6. By the time you have 8 dupes, Your water will dry soon So get purifier and search for geysers.
7. When you secure a source of water, your hatches might lay an egg get an Incubator!
8. Depending on your hunger setting you might get locavore some point, Once you have it done plant as much meal wood as possible and slowly get rid of mush bar.
9. Your first incubator can be just some smashed ore, Go set up metal refinery next the coolant is what ever liquid you can find you will convert it into mush bar anyway.
10. Now you lack power get what ever it need to build solar panel OR electrolyzer that throw extra oxygen into void you just need power.
11. After all that you just need to expand ranch and Incubator(You should do it when ranch near capacity I don't have to tell you right?)
12. Now wait for the right moment to start killing spree.
13. If you play with 8 dupes you need to start eating meat before 50 cycles hit, and before 75 for 16 dupes (Normal hunger) If you play at max hunger it will be <75 and <87.5, BTW forbid any other food so your dupe wont mess up the plan especially in a tight schedule.
14. Use this food calculator so you have a grasp of how many ranch you need (https://oni-assistant.com/tools/foodcalculator).
15. After you get canivore start killing most of your ranch because at that point you rock is mostly gone.
16. If you fail it's mean you fail and you learn something just retry.

You might want to take a look at this one.

 

[Coolthulhu]

Making those achievement non-missable is worse than just removing them. Your suggestions would turn it from a challenge into a boring "set some things to be less efficient for some cycles, whenever you want" checkbox event.

The point about issues with non-missable achievements existing is valid, though. They do change the way early game plays and change it heavily, leading to player having to pick one of:

• Achievement run - those start the same way because they have to get The Big Three
• Non-achievement run - freedom allowed

I'd much prefer the missable achievements to shape the game design rather than being removed (or suffering a fate worse than removal). But if they aren't going to shape future game design, it may be better to just get rid of them, so that the starts are less repetitive.

Missable achievements offer a sense of urgency and direction, something ONI is sorely lacking after the 100th cycle.

[SackMaggie]

29 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Missable achievements offer a sense of urgency and direction, something ONI is sorely lacking after the 100th cycle.

Completely agree first 100 cycle is the most fun for me, Although I never beaten the game once... I just restart over...

[nudelsoup]

Well, I have 100% completion in the base game. Perhaps the real issue is that the achievements are localized to each game, instead of being one-shots that were then auto-completed in new games. Like most other games. I realize that most people don't care about this the way I do, but that's hardly an excuse to ignore it.

The last base game I played was when I finally got 100%, and if I recall correctly, the stragglers were actually engie tuneup and curing a disease. I had to bar a dupe from accessing the main base, basically breathing in farts until he went down.

Probably the main reason that I find ONI superior is that there is no singular way to approach anything. Unless you want 100% of course, then the course is locked. I do enjoy a good debate about stuff like this though, and several good points have been made. I've played around with the hunger settings to figure out making carnivore quicker, but usually it just caused starvation while the ranches ramp up production. I've never cooked mush though, I'll go try that in a new game then.

Any of you have ideas how the achievements could be made non-missable, but without making them too easy or too boring? I kinda liked my idea about only counting uncooked meat, since if you delay it for too long, it will cause stress, ultimately requiring a lot of micromanagement. Or you get a couple of dupes without skills and basically lock them in a room with treadmills and wait it out, but there's plenty of room for error.

[tuxii]

I don't think the achievements need to change at all.  If the achievements are made easier it cheapens the achievements of those that earned them the older, harder way.

ONI is not made to be a one playthrough game.  Just look at all the varied starts in both the base game and Spaced Out.  It is intended to be played through multiple times.

I have 100% achievements on Steam for ONI.  Some of my playthroughs were played just to achieve one or a few achievements.  One game was dedicated to the Super Sustainable achievement alone.

That being said, at least it is still possible to do a full 100% achievement run even though it's very difficult.  There are many games out there that make it necessary to play through the game multiple times (or at least save scum a bunch) because earning one achievement blocks earning one or more achievements down a branch.

[nudelsoup]

There are plenty of achievements that are incredibly easy to obtain. Regarding these few hard ones, I don't care if they are made harder to obtain, as long as the "missable" parameter is scrapped. Could be another variant, like "for 10 cycles in a row, have your dupes consume 10k+ kcals of meat." Then you can do it whenever, but at a cost since you won't get the morale bonus from prepared foods. There are plenty of approaches to this that doesn't invalidate the achievement, except making it something to pursue at any stage if the player feels like it.

That's the keyword here. Each player is different and we shouldn't dictate how they enjoy the game. That's literally a part of the game since buildings interact and there aren't many buildings with a singular purpose. The entire endgame is centered around trying to figure stuff out with the tools available, since otherwise you just blow up everything. A large part of all stages of the game is how to adapt your usual methodology to the layout of the planetoid.

Edit: Another approach could be to move some of the achievements to a separate list, let's call it challenges or whatever. This could be like a set piece option, where we have to dedicate everything to achieve it. I think the 3 missable achievements would be prime candidates for such a change, but more could be added, even new ones. The important part would be that they aren't connected to the individual games where they mess with our perfectionist/completionist mindsets.

[beeper]

The thing I do not like about locavore, carnivore and super sustainable is that come the mid game you cannot really tell if a base got the achievements. It would be cooler to me if they were difficulty settings. Locavore could disable the plant tiles and SS could disable the generators for the whole game. Carnivore would mean dupes could only eat meat, which would probably require a tweak to survive the first few cycles.

[6Havok9]

I don't think the missable achievements need fixing. Missable achievements are set difficulty challenges, with clear start and win/lose conditions. In ONI this is only possible by having some condition or limit set from the start of a new colony.

Non missable achievements are not those type of challenges, as their initial setup is player-determined, can't be lost and can be as easy or as difficult as the player wishes.

I'd like more "missable achievements", but I also like that a 100% playthrough is always technically possible. I don't know how well those two things go together!

Spoiler

Free Flow - Reach cycle X without building pumps or pipes.

Five Seconds Rule - Eat X calories without having more than Y cal of food spoil.

Sticks and Stones - Do "something" or reach cycle X without researching more than Y technologies.

 

On 12/19/2022 at 5:11 PM, beeper said:

The thing I do not like about locavore, carnivore and super sustainable is that come the mid game you cannot really tell if a base got the achievements.

Imagine some special reward for those achievements. Restricted to the colony. Like some skin. A golden hamster wheel. A butchery drywall!