Genuine Question: Is very fast speed a over-powered perk? Why?

[goatt]

What spectacular impossible things can you do with x1.7 (3 speed circuits) moving speed that breaks the game?

Edit: clarification, the question is not whether it's beneficial, but whether it's game breaking kinda big deal.

[Copyafriend]

Well there are a few enemies that it enables you to dodge, which is otherwise impossible, however there is one counterarguement that never fails: marble armor.

the thing is, speed isnt some over the top perk, it saves time, meaning you can get more done if you’re trying to optimize stuff, so, considering 99% of the people on this forum has either 1000 hours or approaching said number, they have an inflated sense of the value of a time saving ability. 
its great its pretty strong, but no stronger than what wigfrid has with her .25% more damage and take .25% more damage. 
additional note: beefalo exist and are faster than your character until you get rediculous

[Marnxx]

Speed is probably the most beneficial stat in the game.

1)It increases the number of swings you can take between dodges

2) Reduces the damage you take due to it being easier to dodge

3) Decreases the time it takes to move around the map, essentially increasing the efficiency of your time.

There are attacks in the game that are next to impossible to dodge without speed items.

[goatt]

6 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

its great its pretty strong, but no stronger than what wigfrid has with her .25% more damage and take .25% more damage. 

I think it's a fair comparison.

5 minutes ago, Marnxx said:

Speed is probably the most beneficial stat in the game.

"Most" beneficial is very subjective. You mentioned perks aren't as game-breaking as some other characters. The speed can make him a good early game characters for map clearing, but for late game fast traveling, we can other characters such as Wanda and Wortox, or even lazy deserter in multiplayer servers.

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, goatt said:

but for late game fast traveling, we can other characters such as Wanda and Wortox, or even lazy deserter in multiplayer servers.

wanda doesn't work out as well cause it misses out on the other benefits same with lazy deserter and wortox's soul hopping isn't faster than a regular wilson due to needing to kill things constantly for it

[Marnxx]

7 minutes ago, goatt said:

I think it's a fair comparison.

"Most" beneficial is very subjective. You mentioned perks aren't as game-breaking as some other characters. The speed can make him a good early game characters for map clearing, but for late game fast traveling, we can other characters such as Wanda and Wortox, or even lazy deserter in multiplayer servers.

I said “probably the most beneficial”. Obviously everything is subjective depending on what you are doing. But speed is always reliable and beneficial in everything you do in the game.

[goatt]

3 minutes ago, Dextops said:

wanda doesn't work out as well cause it misses out on the other benefits same with lazy deserter and wortox's soul hopping isn't faster than a regular wilson due to needing to kill things constantly for it

What do you mean by other benefit? Wx's perks are "either or" because it's limited by circuit, but Wanda's perk can exist simultaneously.

Wortox's time and effort spent on farming soul can be done while he's killing spiders for food. The comparison shouldn't be like sports where athletes starts at starting line at the same time. It should consider there is always waiting, and chores, and random killing before going on a mission. Like if comparing fairly in your way, you have to count the time WX making a trap, catching rabbit, going to ruins and collecting gears, if we force wortox to kill to get souls. 

[Dextops]

3 minutes ago, goatt said:

What do you mean by other benefit? Wx's perks are "either or" because it's limited by circuit, but Wanda's perk can exist simultaneously.

Wortox's time and effort spent on farming soul can be done while he's killing spiders for food. The comparison shouldn't be like sports where athletes starts at starting line at the same time. It should consider there is always waiting, and chores, and random killing before going on a mission. Like if comparing fairly in your way, you have to count the time WX making a trap, catching rabbit, going to ruins and collecting gears, if we force wortox to kill to get souls. 

wandas teleporting ability and lazy deserter can only be on set locations while wx's can go anywhere and they have added combat abilities to help with it.

also spiders is a horrible way of getting food especially with wortox since he'll either have to eat the souls hes gathering or kill extra spiders just to get topped up on souls

and finally wx's speed module is a one time investment and can then just be easily recrafted after long periods of time while wortox constantly needs to kill things

[goatt]

4 minutes ago, Marnxx said:

I said “probably the most beneficial”. Obviously everything is subjective depending on what you are doing. But speed is always reliable and beneficial in everything you do in the game.

"probably the most" together is kinda sending strong message, especially you only listed reasons why it's "probably the most", but didn't mention ay reasons why it's not "probably the most". But I agree speed boost is always reliable and beneficial. It's just the main focus here is how strong is it, is it really game breaking.

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

wandas teleporting ability and lazy deserter can only be on set locations while wx's can go anywhere and they have added combat abilities to help with it.

When you say "anywhere", you mean including anywhere in ocean? Also, the comparison is the context of the late game when everything has set up, and you don't need to go to random places because everything is already in its designated locations. The traveling time is usually minimized in late game.

4 minutes ago, Dextops said:

also spiders is a horrible way of getting food especially with wortox since he'll either have to eat the souls hes gathering or kill extra spiders just to get topped up on souls

Ok, let's assume spiders are horrible. How about hound waves? The point here is that your way of comparison is not really fair, not which food is also best for soul farming.

 

5 minutes ago, Dextops said:

and finally wx's speed module is a one time investment and can then just be easily recrafted after long periods of time while wortox constantly needs to kill things

Wortox's need for constant killing is not that high. He just need to stand next to a bunny vs spider farm, or frog vs spider, or abi vs flowers. In public server, he can easily get soul from random places if he's active enough. Also, wx will have to kill stuff too if he's actively playing. "Constantly needs to kill things" is not only a requirement, but also just a play style at the same time.

[Mr.Tarunio]

I guess non wanda players want to get to a location without the slog of walking slow. speed has always been a strong topic since singleplayer had all the speed buffs you needed with SW. but in dst it feels the devs have been avoiding anything with walking speed (example is wolfgang but his speed was a bug due to size), don't know why.

[Marnxx]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

"probably the most" together is kinda sending strong message, especially you only listed reasons why it's "probably the most", but didn't mention ay reasons why it's not "probably the most". But I agree speed boost is always reliable and beneficial. It's just the main focus here is how strong is it, is it really game breaking.

Let’s put it this way, if WX only had the 6 slot speed upgrade available and 100 in every stat across the board, I would still use that upgrade above all the others until I had a walking cane or some other item to increase my speed.

Making a case that something is game breaking is almost impossible since this game is inherently a cooperative game and characters are not balanced as is. See Wes as an example. 
I’m not stating that increased speed is OP. I’m stating that the speed stat is very powerful, giving you examples why and those are the reasons people are arguing that it’s too good in its current form.

[Mike23Ua]

The only problems I personally have with movement speed not just in this game but in ANY cooperative Multiplayer game: it’s that it makes it ridiculously hard for people who pick slower characters to actually stay near to and play with their much faster friend.

Theres a REASON no one has ever attempted to make a Justice League game.. and it is because in Multiplayer Flash is going to run circles around everyone else- and yeah that’s what flash is supposed to do I get it… but it wouldn’t make for a fun multiplayer experience.

Flash actually WAS playable in Lego Batman 2/3 but the game also limited the range in which He & the other player could separate.

In any game where you have a fast moving character and a slower moving character and the game expects you to play together: You run into the problem of the faster character having to stand around and wait for you to catch up, running off and doing their own thing… or You feeling like them needing to wait on you makes you a burden upon them.

All of which (for me at least) has always combined to make for an unfun Cooperative (and in some cases competitive) Multiplayer Experience

Which is why 50% movement speed just sounds absolutely ridiculous to me- I was actually very happy when Klei opted to remove Speed from Wolfgang, because he was quite literally running off AND killing everything in sight 2x faster.. now me and my friend can play and stay within close proximity to one another.

Wurt, Wormwood, Webber, Goose Woodie, Walter, Wes & WX78 have “gotta go fast” abilities.. But going faster makes it harder to stay in close proximity to other players.

So for me in literally any game I’ve ever played where some characters go fast while others don’t, it makes it hard to play with friends.

This is also why games like Apex Legends that have faster characters like Wraith, Octane, Pathfinder, Valkyrie & Ash- ALL have an Ability that can get the rest of their slower team mates to them faster by means of void portal, jump pad, Zipline, shared take-off, and Dimensional Rift.

The Above: Should be a prime example of why “Speed” plays such an important role in video games- Its not just about how many hits you can dodge.. 

[Copyafriend]

5 minutes ago, Marnxx said:

Let’s put it this way, if WX only had the 6 slot speed upgrade available and 100 in every stat across the board, I would still use that upgrade above all the others until I had a walking cane or some other item to increase my speed.

 

As mentioned (in another thread idk how to quote from another thread on mobile) before, some players will always go for speed in any context unless nerfed. 

and like i also said, players with enough experience place an exaggerated value on speed. They can accomplish anything they want even id they had 50 in all stats and .5 damage, so you might as well get there and leave faster. I think its important to remember who you’re asking when considering the replies from this forum

[Dextops]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Tarunio said:

example is wolfgang but his speed was a bug due to size

i don't think it was or it might've been at first but it definitely was intended later on or else it wouldn't have survived so many years and a port to dst and his speed boost being disabled on beefalo ect

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

it’s that it makes it ridiculously hard for people who pick slower characters to actually stay near to and play with their much faster friend.

waiting slower players is really hard, yeah...

[Eliaslorenz]

Speed is by far the best stat in the game due to the fact that if you never get hit, you never have to heal or use armor. As well as;

It increases combat efficiency, decreases travel time, and at a certain point, trivializes one of the game's biggest challenges: time management. Time management is also why people love basing near wormholes and sinkholes.

[ShadowDuelist]

Having all 3 speed circuits gives +50% speed which is the same speed boost he had when overcharged, so it’s nothing new to the character, except that by configuring him like that now you miss other perks.
 

As others mentioned speed is a good thing but at this point is nowhere near broken, at least not at WX’s level of boost.

As a matter of fact if you consider the diminishing returns the third speed circuit adds only +10% speed which is nothing to write home about, so it’s probably wiser to just add some other thing (you still have a base +40% speed + something else of your choice that fits in a 2 slot circuit)

IMO the only thing that is broken in WX’s new kit is the permanent Nightvision, and should probably cost more pins to have. The speed boosts are fine.

[goatt]

16 minutes ago, Marnxx said:

if WX only had the 6 slot speed upgrade available and 100 in every stat across the board,

What do you mean by 100 stats across the board?

16 minutes ago, Marnxx said:

giving you examples why and those are the reasons people are arguing that it’s too good in its current form.

That's exactly the question that I care about and the question that puzzles me. The examples you gave made me feel it's not "too good". It's just convenient and time saving in one particular aspect. Calling it "too good" is just, idk, puzzling to me.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The only problems I personally have with movement speed not just in this game but in ANY cooperative Multiplayer game: it’s that it makes it ridiculously hard for people who pick slower characters to actually stay near to and play with their much faster friend.

... any game where you have a fast moving character and a slower moving character and the game expects you to play together: You run into the problem of the faster character having to stand around and wait for you to catch up, running off and doing their own thing…

So you are saying speed bonus is a downside? ...

 

 

12 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

some players will always go for speed in any context unless nerfed. 

Why is this a bad thing? Some players will surely always go for speed (like me), but some other will never. It's just a preference. If design choice creates diversified player choices, I think it's a good thing. It shouldn't be considered as over-powered just because some players always prefer speed bonus.

I disagree that "players with enough experience place an exaggerated value on speed", given woodie definitely chops trees faster, and wanda definitely kills bosses faster, and wendy definitely kills bee queen faster. Speed bonus only makes moving faster to experienced players or new players. I do have the same longing for speed bonus, because walking is literally my least favorite thing in game as I've always been complaining about it in my games. But I can hardly see why it's too powerful.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Eliaslorenz said:

Speed is by far the best stat in the game due to the fact that if you never get hit ...

It increases combat efficiency, decreases travel time, and at a certain point, trivializes one of the game's biggest challenges: time management...

The focus here is that how much is the efficiency is increased? Efficiency can be better improved by higher damage than faster moving speed. Weapon durability cost can be lowered also by higher damage, not faster moving speed. Time management is only a challenge for speed runs and speed runs' battle efficiency is greatly improved by higher damage. Moving faster can get "moving" part done faster, but doesn't give bonus in any other area.

[Eliaslorenz]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

The focus here is that how much is the efficiency is increased? Efficiency can be better improved by higher damage than faster moving speed. Weapon durability cost can be lowered also by higher damage, not faster moving speed. Time management is only a challenge for speed runs and speed runs' battle efficiency is greatly improved by higher damage. Moving faster can get "moving" part done faster, but doesn't give bonus in any other area.

Combat efficiency is far more than DPS and tool durability; It's also how much healing is needed (if any, due to speed), how much armor is needed (if any, due to speed), how many hits you can get in-between kites (which improves DPS), being able to get away far enough to even heal or use any item without being interrupted/punished, and more.

The problem with speed being so easy to obtain on WX-78 is that he gains so many more upsides than anyone else by being that fast. Why do you think people always had a wicker on standby when overcharge was the way to get insane speed? 

Also, as for the durability argument; just use a hambat? I mean, infinite durability seems pretty efficient to me if you hit the enemy twice as much as anyone else due to not needing nearly as much time to avoid attacks due to being super fast.

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, goatt said:

Why is this a bad thing? Some players will surely always go for speed (like me), but some other will never. It's just a preference. If design choice creates diversified player choices, I think it's a good thing. It shouldn't be considered as over-powered just because some players always prefer speed bonus.

I disagree that "players with enough experience place an exaggerated value on speed", given woodie definitely chops trees faster, and wanda definitely kills bosses faster, and wendy definitely kills bee queen faster. Speed bonus only makes moving faster to experienced players or new players. I do have the same longing for speed bonus, because walking is literally my least favorite thing in game as I've always been complaining about it in my games. But I can hardly see why it's too powerful.

I never said it was a bad thing, i said it as a fact. It gives diminishing returns, and 1.5x is only around 7% faster than 1.4x speed, and any benefits would surely be negligible, with other mods being fairly powerful in their own right. But some people will ignore the possibility of having one of the highest healths, or having one of the highest max sanities WITH a mild sanity regen, or having a massive stomach and a hunger modifier, or any number of potential perks just because they value speed more than they maybe necessarily should. 

 

You are free to disagree with me, but my underlying point that players with a higher number of hours tend to gravitate towards time saving perks is very valid. Wendy may kill bee queen faster, and woody may chop wood faster, but movement speed is the best time saving perk of all, and is commonly cited on these forums as the strongest perk, despite no benefit outside of, as you put it “walking is literally my least favorite thing”. Walking is about 50-80% of playtime. Shaving 30% off of your walking time is a lot of extra time to prep for bosses, or time gathering food, or anything you want to do. Dodging is easier with movement speed yes, but not so much that it seriously matters for veteran players. The real reason people like movement speed is the time they save.

but i dont think its OP, nor did i ever in any of my statements say that it was.

personally i think its rather overrated. Moving fast is nice, but thats what i have a beefalo for.

[Mike23Ua]

To answer your question without quoting your entire post: If you want to say.. take advantage of Wendy’s Petal Bestowment Buff to help you kill an enemy, but that Wendy is lagging 40 miles behind you while she waits for Abigail to catch up to her (Abigail will drag off screen if Wendy moves TOO Fast) then the WX78 now has to stand around and wait for Wendy to catch up OR start the fight while Wendy trots her way there. Then- Yes having extra Speed would indeed be considered a Downside.

However: as some of the posts above mine point out, Extra Speed means getting there faster, dodging faster, getting in more hits and getting away faster, needing less healing, and giving you more timing to avoid attacks.

the MAJORITY of this game is played by swapping between a Weapon & Walking Cane/Other Speedy item.. Making Speed play a much more important role in the game then anyone cares to really admit.

Using the most recent game I’ve played as an example (It Takes Two) Using your Dash Ability gets you out of the way of enemy attacks faster then just trying to run.

In fact I would go so far as to say that characters with Built in Extra speed shouldn’t be able to stack extra speedy bonuses by combining their speed+Walking Cane+Cobblestone Road.

If I was a developer- I would make it so that only slower characters can use the Cane+Road while the faster characters- Only needed their built in Speedy Bonuses (had Klei done it this way… I would’ve probably even been fine with letting Wolfgang keep his Movement perk)

Almost every item/character perk in this game: Is faster/easier access to another existing item in the game- For Example: Wes’s Speedy Balloon is useful until he gets a Walking Cane or Beefalo. Willows Lighter is Useful as a light source- Until she gets a Lantern/Miners Hat.

So for 50% Speed to STACK with other Speed Items- It’s just outright broken in my opinion.

[goatt]

10 minutes ago, Eliaslorenz said:

Combat efficiency is far more than DPS and tool durability

I absolutely agree. That's why I think combat efficiency is far more than speed bonus, far more than squeezing a few hits in each interval, and I gave examples to demonstrate that. 

12 minutes ago, Eliaslorenz said:

The problem with speed being so easy to obtain on WX-78 is that he gains so many more upsides than anyone else by being that fast. Why do you think people always had a wicker on standby when overcharge was the way to get insane speed?

The cost of old wx getting speed is needing a wickerbottom. That's a big cost. Does this big cost always bring fair return? No. There were old wx who were happy to get charged and then sit in the base. What I am saying is sometimes people just want speed, not because they think it's useful, but because it's a very cool perk.

But about the question how good it really is, we need to really look at the extent of the impact of the speed bonus. Just because it's popular, doesn't mean it's good.

17 minutes ago, Eliaslorenz said:

Also, as for the durability argument; just use a hambat? I mean, infinite durability seems pretty efficient to me if you hit the enemy twice as much as anyone else due to not needing nearly as much time to avoid attacks due to being super fast.

Again I agree, but that's not my main point. People choose dark sword over hambat all the time. Why? It's more than the durability issue. I mentioned durability to demonstrate the complexity, not to emphasize on durability.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

You are free to disagree with me, but my underlying point that players with a higher number of hours tend to gravitate towards time saving perks is very valid.

Oh no, i don't disagree. I agree very much. Time saving is absolutely the most important things. That's why we create all sorts of "farms". The argument i'm making here, and the question I'm having here is that I don't think big speed bonus alone saves enough time overall for the speed bonus to be considered as over-powered.

[Copyafriend]

Just now, goatt said:

Oh no, i don't disagree. I agree very much. Time saving is absolutely the most important things. That's why we create all sorts of "farms". The argument i'm making here, and the question I'm having here is that I don't think big speed bonus alone saves enough time overall for the speed bonus to be considered as over-powered.

Then why did you quote me? Thats literally exactly what ive said every time ive said anything 

[goatt]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

WX78 now has to stand around and wait for Wendy to catch up

No offense, but this sounds like a complaint about your past game play. "She's too slow" is not a downside for me being too fast.

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

However: as some of the posts above mine point out, Extra Speed means getting there faster, dodging faster, getting in more hits and getting away faster, needing less healing, and giving you more timing to avoid attacks.

Yes, speed bonus can lower the fight difficulty and lower skill requirement. It also reduced time in prep food and armor. But it doesn't generally translate into ending fights faster. Higher damage has more impact on that. For example, wanda finishes dragonfly faster by farming nightmare faster, and needing no living logs, less pan flute, as well as stun locking the boss. She finishes bee queen faster for the same reason. She finishes all seasonable bosses faster cuz no prep is needed. Who else can she finish slower than a fast wx? I think She finishes every boss faster than a fast wx, she needs no healing, cuz healing doesn't work. How about wig. She also finishes fights faster. She also craft armors much faster. She also requires less healing. It's way more complex than moving faster. The benefit of moving faster lowers the difficulty for new players, and bring smoothness of combat for seasoned players, but doesn't bring significant impact if your skill level is high when compared to other characters.

14 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Then why did you quote me? Thats literally exactly what ive said every time ive said anything 

probably mixed up? Im sorry. So many replies. I wanna give up.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

Wanda and Wortox, or even lazy deserter in multiplayer servers.

I mean Wanda I see because there's no speed that'll really compete with her speed in the late game but Wortox's soul hoping doesn't really make him much faster than the other players outside of the caves considering not only are his shortcuts only useful based on world gen but boats more or less perma copy his speed I feel like his speed is more or less balanced in comparison to the average player.

Edit: Figured I'd add I'm more or less indifferent to Wx's max speed was just dropping my 2 cents