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Please revert the Wolfgang changes, we don't need a second tank character.


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The slower mightiness decay at cost of loss while hit was the perfect solution to make wolfgang fun, and unique from wigfrid, the debate would end as they wouldn't fill the exact same role in combat anymore, but now he requires no thinking again, just tank your life away, adjust some numbers for sure but please don't get rid of that idea, I was happily looking forward to play with the new wolfgang changes after the patch would roll out but now all I know is that I either make this post, or stay quiet and wait longer. Please, he was actually fun before one of the newer beta tweaks.

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49 minutes ago, YourPlayerCat said:

The slower mightiness decay at cost of loss while hit was the perfect solution to make wolfgang fun, and unique from wigfrid, the debate would end as they wouldn't fill the exact same role in combat anymore, but now he requires no thinking again, just tank your life away, adjust some numbers for sure but please don't get rid of that idea, I was happily looking forward to play with the new wolfgang changes after the patch would roll out but now all I know is that I either make this post, or stay quiet and wait longer. Please, he was actually fun before one of the newer beta tweaks.

Did you played it? 

Well, You still can kite, bro.

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If characters being allowed to do the same thing is a problem shouldn't you look at Maxwell, Woodie, and Wurt? Or Wormwood and Wickerbottom? Or Webber and Wurt?

If he's reverted to losing might on hit you can make this exact same thread but swap Wigfrid for Wanda. Instead, you should look at what else they do. Wig has group songs, Wolfgang smashes and chops faster, Wanda has lategame teleportation.

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1 hour ago, YourPlayerCat said:

The slower mightiness decay at cost of loss while hit was the perfect solution to make wolfgang fun, and unique from wigfrid

I don't really understand this septimate tbh. By making him lose Mightiness on hit, it made him more like Wanda instead of Wigfrid, but there also no evidence that Wolfgang is a better tank because of the Marble Suit speed loss removal. If you're going to be using that suit for tanking, it won't work any better or worse than any other Wes or Wilson because Wolfgang doesn't affect any of those properties of the suit. If it's used like that, it would have the same general use as it did pre-rework, so I don't understand the argument of why it's such a big deal now when it was never a problem before. The rework actually made Kiting with him better as it could be done much more safely and could allow for a wider range of useful hats to be used in place of armor as that role could be satisficed by the marble suits.

Secondly, I don't think that the might loss on hit was all that fun in the first place in my opinion. While it did act as a balancing act in most fights, in others it felt more like I was constantly having to muddle through bs just to be able to use my perk. For example, I fought the shadow clockworks with the mechanic and it was tedious as hell. I was constantly having to duck and dodge to get my Mightiness up with the Gembell to the point that the Bishop straight up left the fight, causing the entire fight to feel like a waste of effort. A similar thing happened with Bee Queen, who flew away because I was trying so hard to play catch up that she left the fight during her last phase. My problem with the mechanic is that, regardless of how it's implemented, it's either going to become barely noticeable or is going to be severely unfun as the game expects you to perfectly do the fights less you run into the issue of having to constantly find those small periods of time where you can just barely get enough might to do a few moments of extra damage before having to buff up again. It was just really f***ing annoying to me once I started doing some of the tougher bosses.

1 hour ago, YourPlayerCat said:

the debate would end as they wouldn't fill the exact same role in combat anymore,

The debate kinda died long before her Rework, and after the Rework it was essentially permanently closed as it became clear how distinct the two roles became. Wigfrid was a combat character who specialized in giving her entire team buffs to help them survive and mitigate resources needed to do fights. Wolfgang was more focused on having a single player doing more work for compensation of food, which was changed to dumbells in the rework. The two reworks helped break that idea as they stright up have almost nothing in common with their roles beyond specializing in combat. Not even Wanda can truly be compared to Wolfgang as she more embodies a Glass Cannon, with many other powerful perks like teleporting besides that, as Wolfgang is a more classic brawler with a few perks that helps him not be a waste during not fighting times.

1 hour ago, YourPlayerCat said:

but now he requires no thinking again

Not really, he will die if you just consantly tank as again, he does not gain that much beneifit when using the Marble Suit like that. He would still die because he has no form of Hp regen, Most enemies have too much Hp for him to out damage them, etc. While he may not HAVE to kite, he also doesn't really have any perks that help him tank besides a higher dps.

1 hour ago, YourPlayerCat said:

adjust some numbers for sure but please don't get rid of that idea

Like I stated before, I believe that readjusting the number would more than likely result in Wolfgang no longer having that as a serious downside, especially if they went the idea that it follows armor protection rates. While people give Wendy flax for her no longer doing reduced damage when attacking the same target as Abigail, I believe a change like the one I described would make Wolfgang a much more serious (and deserving) example of that. While Marble isn't brain dead easy to get, it still is plentiful enough that someone could get enough marble to essentially make the downside non existant through marble suits by maybe the first spring. Even if the drain was perfectly linear, no base reduction of might loss, it would still cause of the heaviest hitters to do maybe 5 mightiness loss, something that would be easily recoverable. But then again, I could be wrong about the numbers and it could make such a minor difference that it circles back to the same problem we had before of it being repetitive and unfun with harder bosses. It's such a delicate balance that it might take an entire month to truly get it down pat, time that would only surely be worth it for a very small minority of players. The rest being non-caring or not effected.

While I'm not saying the current passive might loss couldn't be tuned down, the might loss on hit is, in my eyes at least, a genuinely bad mechanic that works better on paper rather than practice.

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While I agree he was fun to play, in the long run, loosing might on hit was just way too punishing. For day to day combat, this wasn't too big of a deal unless you really fumbling in combat, however, when it came to some mobs and bosses, especially one's with a lower attack period and multi-hits, unless you were playing as optimally as possible, you would go from hero to zero in an blink of an eye.

Trying to get his mightiness back up could be a real chore too. There were times in the beta where'd I lose mightiness, try getting it back up by lifting or fighting, Wolfgang would be locked in his growing animation, and proceeded to get hit back into normal form. That was just a cumbersome dance which was just not fun to preform.

Not only that, it also negated 2 of Wolfgang's upsides: Wearing the marble suit with no speed penalty and having 50 extra health. While you get an armor with 95% DR and 750 hp, what's the point in using it if you'll slow down to a crawl when getting hit a few times? Characters that have 200 health are able to take more punishment and stay in fights for longer, but what's the point in that if you become weak just by taking a stray few hits?

While I wasn't totally against this downside, the way it was implemented made it way too troublesome for what it was worth. Besides, there's already a character that fulfills that combat style and that's Wanda. While she can have access to easy healing and be able to avoid damage completely with the backstep watch, you can't just go into to every situation and play mindlessly. Her ageless watch has a cool down of 2 minutes, a 2 second animation, and the healing can be negated by getting hit. If you just hold down "f", you risk dying very quickly and wasting a lot of resources, and the same goes for Wolfgang.

You can't just tank in every combat scenario, and always expect to come out on top. You don't always have the luxury to slam down healing food or have the resources to make an endless supply of armor. While he can finish fights faster, he's not invincible, and if you play mindlessly, you're going to die incredibly quickly. 

From what I've played, while it was interesting at first to approach combat with a more safer and less aggressive playstyle, it just didn't fit for Wolfgang. Maybe if they ever revisit the might loss mechanic in the future it could be tuned to be less crippling and make it so that you could gain might more efficiently during combat, but as is it right now, Wolfgang's good where he is, at least in my eyes.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

It's such a delicate balance that it might take an entire month to truly get it down pat, time that would only surely be worth it for a very small minority of players. The rest being non-caring or not effected.

Exactly how I feel. It was a fun idea but in practice it had too many different things it had to interact with. In order for it to be fun and balanced they would probably have to do something like change might loss from a percentage of damage taken to a manual amount that each enemy possesses. Then they'd have to spend who knows how long testing and tweaking the might loss values of every single enemy in the game, or at least every single boss. Probably not worth it.

Besides, anyone who liked losing might on hit can just play Wanda. She's very similar, except she dies after a few mistakes instead of becoming Wilson.

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