OP or not OP and influence of nerfs/buffs on player's experience

[Well-met]

3 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

more potential choices to make (stay wimpy or mighty now has straight answer "mighty")

it's called "wimpy" for a reason. it's not a state meant to provide benefits.

if you really want a reason to be wimpy, it is when you don't feel like spending time using gyms.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i actually play as wimpy sometimes since if im building i dont care sbout my damage and if hound wave or a seasonal boss comes i can go mighty in few seconds

[DVGMedia]

I am going to start with mentioning its good that the poster of this thread did some research.
It is important to determine damage thresholds for sure
wolfgang was inconsistent for damage thresholds and now he is consistent which is the best part of the update.
He will always do over 100 damage with  a spike.  and over 100 with a a fresh less than 2 day old hambat.
Darksword lets him surpass 200 hp mob multipliers strictly speaking terror beaks.
nightmares are just a nuisance to him since mighty gives him 3 shot for both if using a dark sword.

Wolf I would say is definitely a balanced character now. He gained too much for so little.
Just about every character that can snowball and even negate their weakness Has to deal with their weakness first.
Wolfgang never had to do that. Wolfgang never had a weakness he only had the limiter of food but he was able to use his strength to get more which became a feedback loop of strength. (for new players this is what made wolf gang harder to manage) but for  majority of players wolf was really easy to build off of early because they had the strength to do it without the downsides of other characters.

Every character that can snowball or become stronger have limiters they have to deal with.

Warly needing to farm up his foods and cant heal as efficiently as other characters with food because of his downside.

Wurt starts of weak and has no good food options early on and has to depend on themselves to build up everything from the ground up.
But then they get a strong army

.
Webber only starts off with basic spiders and he needs to find and tame the spiders in the world to get every option available to them.
plus webber has a hard time gathering wood early on unless they use magic slowing him down.

Wendy only gets her damage bonus when fighting with abby but abby is really frail so in order to make the most of abby they need to mass farm flowers and she needs a beefalo to negate her downside completely.

Winona needs to gather lots of supplies to make her kill areas
Same with wicker but wicker can feedback loop her supplies so she can get hers done faster.

Walter only has speed with wobby  but to get his speed he needs to risk himself to get the supplies he needs and wobby does not create a feedback loop as wobby is not good at fighting.

Woodworm mass generates magic and is able to get speed boosts at the cost of hunger and not being able to heal with the easiest way to heal being food.

wigfrid needs to get her songs to get mass power. has half the worlds food restricted.

WX is the main embodiment of upgrading as you play eating gears and gaining immunity to dark freezing and also having the highest speed health and sanity stats in the game towards the end. all for the downside of taking .25 dps while wet.

Maxwell has increased building and resource collection for staying frail.

And wanda Well you already know lol.

What im saying is Wolfgang got the treatment of being able to play and be consistent with. Though yes maybe it lowered the aspect of speedrunning.  but that is a small price to pay 
as you are already saying speed was irrelevant with your calculations of having wolf eat berries and carrots.

All updates made characters consistent and able to fill a role. 

Though for sure some gave more than others.

I know when the wendy refresh came out i had to change how i played wendy. No longer was i holding 3 or 4 abby flowers and a lureplant or something to sacrifice to keep  her in the action.  Now she is more tactile and more rewarding because of it.

and the same happened here with wolfgang.









 

[Gi-Go]

Why would you nerf the most irrelevant character in the game? The only person who still thinks Wolfgang is good for something after rework is Toros, and that's because he is in denial and never played Wanda. The rest of us switched for better options while waiting for rework to hit. For everyone else who liked Wolfgang it's clear that having double damage with sprinkles of nonsense on top is not good enough for a refreshed character. Both Wendy and Wanda are stronger, more versatile and more fun combat characters, while a bunch of others such as webber, wurt, wortox and warly aren't exsactly as good, but still quite strong in combat, on top of each having their own thing outside of battle. Wigfrid is not a character she is a tutorial. Double damage is not a cool perk anymore, and can't stand on it's own in this meta.  

Anyways thanks for taking time to write this very(very) long post, and share your opinions. While some things you said aren't really true and I'll talk about them later, the main premise is that Wolfgang speed removal is not good and I absolutely agree as you might have guessed already. 

[Pig Princess]

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

He will always do over 100 damage with  a spike.  and over 100 with a a fresh less than 2 day old hambat.
Darksword lets him surpass 200 hp mob multipliers strictly speaking terror beaks.

I, personally, like it, especially since one still needs to top Wolfgang's hunger withing 50 hunger points for minimal mightyness loss, problem with that is minigame which you have to do to top off mightyness or stand still while lifting dumbell, which is more repetitive and less interactable than finding different food, as well as less interactable compared to deciding topping off breakpont by myself (I like change because it personally drives me insane irl to eat berries/honey so often to maximise damage output, but I saw people dislike it for the very same reason, I respect it and and feel sorry for them). I guess much more Wolfgang mains would be ok with that if there were more things to interact with regarding mightyness instead, but there aren't. Dumbells switching could be it if it didn't require to stop interacting with the game and each dumbell had their own niche (like armor or weapons do in DST) instead of strict worse-better relationship. Right now one wants to switch to gembell asap, and maybe partially substitute with golden dumbell to preserve durability, but that's too little in my opinion. Maybe if there was something to customise mightyness/wimpyness with dumbells, more dumbell types and they could be equipped in hand slot to increase mightyness while doing something else, it would be much more attractive mechanic (one still would have to use it instead walking cane/weapon/lantern/tool if it was equippable, so there would appear choice of deciding when to include dumbell lifting so it won't interfere; beefalo may be handy since it generally frees hand slot). So basically I would be ok with trading topping off breakpoint dicision and food type decision for dumbell material decision and time decision to topping mightyness.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

Wolf I would say is definitely a balanced character now. He gained too much for so little

But removing speed broke him for many people, e.i. removed fun, and here I though fun should be priority for videogame... Tieing speed boost to something else, preferably even more interactable for player, could be nice middle ground, and I, personally, don't like that old Wolfgang can eat carrots to gain walking cane. However, speed boost removal did more harm that good since it distinguished Wolfgang from Wilson in fights, it removed fun and skill distinction people could gain by deciding to kite Fuelweaver bone cage, or rush shadow pieces before winter, for example. This is why I suggested to tie it to sanity level: not only it could allow to emulate old mighty form kit, but make people who wanted to be fast in wimpy form able to do it, and sanity is generally harder to maintain than hunger, as well as has more ways to do so (at least particular level, not topping it to 100%), yet is something not out of the way, players can't ignore it completely. Especially since new Wolfgang looses more sanity to monsters and darkness now. I also suggested a way to customise this sanity drain in huge range to make it even more interesting and interactable (2x-0.25x, and there are cases one could want 2x instead of 0.25x).

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

Just about every character that can snowball and even negate their weakness Has to deal with their weakness first.
Wolfgang never had to do that.

Yet on full mightyness he dealt 2x damage, had 1.25 speed and 3x hunger drain, so in the end he was at loss if player didn't plan their time well and tried to stay mighty 100% of the time (or even worse - tried to farming potatoes while mighty and such). As I've shown, in wide range of damage multiplier (down to 1.25x - Wigfrid level) he basically was Wigfrid, but with greater that 1x hunger drain. It's actually the same with wereWilba in Hamlet when you have 5x hunger drain, but only - compared to hunger dran - 1.5x speed multiplier, as well as only - compared to hunger drain - ham bat damage, so in the end running around and picking food (vegetables, non-renewable, btw) while one has already transformed was huge waste of time and resources (killing for meat - mostly raw leafy and moster one - was not better). I like that I have to plan when to be in buffed form and organize my playstyle accordingly, and this is exact same thing Wolfgang mains like about Wolfgang, it seems, so I understand them perfectly. It's not as OP as it seems (both damage and speed).

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

Warly needing to farm up his foods and cant heal as efficiently as other characters with food because of his downside

As a Warly player in DST, I can confirm that he can can heal just as efficiently as anyone else, provided you are not trying to feed him stack of pierogies. But since he has his portable crock pot, early game he actually can turn useless mob drops into healing food which otherwise would remained to be unpicked (spicy chili, frog bundwich, honey nuggets and honey ham, fishsticks during visiting swamp, surf'n'turf during same activity, butterfly muffin when you already have veggies on you), but obviously to make it worth it one have to think and fill that time - when food is being cooked - with other activity, such as fighting nearby mob or chopping/mining/crafting meanwhile. Early game Warly can eat meaty stews as his first and only meal (1 when starving, second on 115 hunger), because you can hunt koala since day 2 (maybe earlier even).

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

Wendy only gets her damage bonus when fighting with abby but abby is really frail so in order to make the most of abby they need to mass farm flowers and she needs a beefalo to negate her downside completely.

Wendy doesn't need loads of flowers or beefalo, she does need to put skill and memory to remember how to make the best out of mobs aggro using 2 damage dealing instances from which one is fragile but heals slowly and consider size of the swarm (there is optimal size to trigger shield, decrease or increase of size leads to more fragility of Abigail). A bit later (for bosses) she needs to do minigame with pipspooks, but at least she can multitask during it.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

Woodworm mass generates magic and is able to get speed boosts at the cost of hunger and not being able to heal with the easiest way to heal being food.

Wormwood also can eat raw monster meat, red caps, etc, that otherwise would be unpicked, as well as generate tons of hunger points from seeds with minimal effort (past planning of location where he puts seeds in the ground), which makes 1.2 hunger unnoticeble; meaty stew still doubles hunger points of ingedients, so it's not like Wormwood starves to death while blooming constantly. Speed boost is cheap for him, but he has really good downside. It's not the same as having no downside and no upside, however.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

wigfrid needs to get her songs to get mass power. has half the worlds food restricted.

She does perfectly fine with her songs, and half the world's food is sanity/healing food, which she doesn't need at all. In boss battles she can choose to eat still plentiful sanity/health restoring food or use songs and no food at all for restoring something other than hunger. Her real downside is actually 120 max hunger which makes meaty stew less good on her, but it is still very worth to cook.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

WX is the main embodiment of upgrading as you play eating gears and gaining immunity to dark freezing and also having the highest speed health and sanity stats in the game towards the end. all for the downside of taking .25 dps while wet.

WX didn't recieve rework yet.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

And wanda Well you already know lol.

Yes, I know she exceels at killing stuff including nightmares that only refill her weapon, she is supposed to be fragile yet is the best user of night armor and has infinite teleports that save both health and armor durability; and even at 100% health which is easy to maintain with 12 healing on 2 minutes cooldown she deals very decent damage with alarming clock, let alone all other weapons are available for her. 0.75 working efficiency on old Wanda is a joke since the only case you want to do this is hammer broken clockworks, every other gathering you are doing not in "combat mode", and even that aside you can still stay young or middle aged and make use of big range and damage of your weapon while gathering. I'm not even going to dicsuss how insanely good are her personal wormholes, incuding ability to teleport between caves and forest, ever since Wanda release lazy deserter craves for buff much more than before.

Question to you: how much pierogie do you usually consume over a year (filled with fighting)? That may explain some things.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

Webber only starts off with basic spiders and he needs to find and tame the spiders in the world to get every option available to them.
plus webber has a hard time gathering wood early on unless they use magic slowing him down.

Do you use one-man band on practice during early days to gather wood as non-Webber? Or are you speaking theoretically? Because from my experience pigs are even worse for early gathering that people think: they are scattered so you are wasting more time to gather them than gain due to their help (unless it's only 1 pig, I guess, but it's not much help), spider web is everywhere and they suicide themselves on it (unless you destroy dens, but agan, that wastes even more time, and t2 dens are not worth to destroy anyway), pigs don't work at dusk even if they are in range of light source (lantern, miner hat, glow berry fed to them - doesn't matter), and finally they can die to treeguard very easily, especially if it's like 4 of them (merms at least kite properly). For established wood farm though you need to gain initial tree seeds supply, as well as take your time and build pig farm, so in the end Webber is not as bad in gathering wood as you are trying to show.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

What im saying is Wolfgang got the treatment of being able to play and be consistent with.

Consistent in what way other than damage modifier? He was limited in strategy and tactic and gained nothing in return - both for area he was designed for and for team (unless you are able to make great use of dumbell for killing woven shadows, I guess, as well as see trading early boss fight tactics for aggroing koalephants as fair trade).

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

Though yes maybe it lowered the aspect of speedrunning.  but that is a small price to pay

Of course it's small price to pay if it's not you paying.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

as you are already saying speed was irrelevant with your calculations of having wolf eat berries and carrots.

Speed wasn't irrelevant, in fact, I tried to prove otherwise, but it wasn't coffee equvalent as people like to exaggerate. Small speed boost (25%) made experience more diverse, and if cost is a problem, then cost should be adjusted, not feature removed altogether, especially without compensation.

4 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

I know when the wendy refresh came out i had to change how i played wendy. No longer was i holding 3 or 4 abby flowers and a lureplant or something to sacrifice to keep  her in the action.  Now she is more tactile and more rewarding because of it.

How do you feel reading "Wendy OP please nerf" threads?

I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, just like discussions.

[sudoku]

8 hours ago, Well-met said:

it's called "wimpy" for a reason. it's not a state meant to provide benefits.

if you really want a reason to be wimpy, it is when you don't feel like spending time using gyms.

Yes but thats the whole point to risk vs reward. Im not arguing wimpy should get the speed boost but i do think it adds more depth. 

Wanda is similar being old and close to dying should not really conceptually be a state meant to be beneficial but to give this state a damage boost goes back to the concept of risk vs reward and is largely the reason Wanda is celebrated as being a well thought out character.

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

I, personally, like it, especially since one still needs to top Wolfgang's hunger withing 50 hunger points for minimal mightyness loss, problem with that is minigame which you have to do to top off mightyness or stand still while lifting dumbell, which is more repetitive and less interactable than finding different food, as well as less interactable compared to deciding topping off breakpont by myself (I like change because it personally drives me insane irl to eat berries/honey so often to maximise damage output, but I saw people dislike it for the very same reason, I respect it and and feel sorry for them). I guess much more Wolfgang mains would be ok with that if there were more things to interact with regarding mightyness instead, but there aren't. Dumbells switching could be it if it didn't require to stop interacting with the game and each dumbell had their own niche (like armor or weapons do in DST) instead of strict worse-better relationship. Right now one wants to switch to gembell asap, and maybe partially substitute with golden dumbell to preserve durability, but that's too little in my opinion. Maybe if there was something to customise mightyness/wimpyness with dumbells, more dumbell types and they could be equipped in hand slot to increase mightyness while doing something else, it would be much more attractive mechanic (one still would have to use it instead walking cane/weapon/lantern/tool if it was equippable, so there would appear choice of deciding when to include dumbell lifting so it won't interfere; beefalo may be handy since it generally frees hand slot). So basically I would be ok with trading topping off breakpoint dicision and food type decision for dumbell material decision and time decision to topping mightyness.

But removing speed broke him for many people, e.i. removed fun, and here I though fun should be priority for videogame... Tieing speed boost to something else, preferably even more interactable for player, could be nice middle ground, and I, personally, don't like that old Wolfgang can eat carrots to gain walking cane. However, speed boost removal did more harm that good since it distinguished Wolfgang from Wilson in fights, it removed fun and skill distinction people could gain by deciding to kite Fuelweaver bone cage, or rush shadow pieces before winter, for example. This is why I suggested to tie it to sanity level: not only it could allow to emulate old mighty form kit, but make people who wanted to be fast in wimpy form able to do it, and sanity is generally harder to maintain than hunger, as well as has more ways to do so (at least particular level, not topping it to 100%), yet is something not out of the way, players can't ignore it completely. Especially since new Wolfgang looses more sanity to monsters and darkness now. I also suggested a way to customise this sanity drain in huge range to make it even more interesting and interactable (2x-0.25x, and there are cases one could want 2x instead of 0.25x).

Yet on full mightyness he dealt 2x damage, had 1.25 speed and 3x hunger drain, so in the end he was at loss if player didn't plan their time well and tried to stay mighty 100% of the time (or even worse - tried to farming potatoes while mighty and such). As I've shown, in wide range of damage multiplier (down to 1.25x - Wigfrid level) he basically was Wigfrid, but with greater that 1x hunger drain. It's actually the same with wereWilba in Hamlet when you have 5x hunger drain, but only - compared to hunger dran - 1.5x speed multiplier, as well as only - compared to hunger drain - ham bat damage, so in the end running around and picking food (vegetables, non-renewable, btw) while one has already transformed was huge waste of time and resources (killing for meat - mostly raw leafy and moster one - was not better). I like that I have to plan when to be in buffed form and organize my playstyle accordingly, and this is exact same thing Wolfgang mains like about Wolfgang, it seems, so I understand them perfectly. It's not as OP as it seems (both damage and speed).

As a Warly player in DST, I can confirm that he can can heal just as efficiently as anyone else, provided you are not trying to feed him stack of pierogies. But since he has his portable crock pot, early game he actually can turn useless mob drops into healing food which otherwise would remained to be unpicked (spicy chili, frog bundwich, honey nuggets and honey ham, fishsticks during visiting swamp, surf'n'turf during same activity, butterfly muffin when you already have veggies on you), but obviously to make it worth it one have to think and fill that time - when food is being cooked - with other activity, such as fighting nearby mob or chopping/mining/crafting meanwhile. Early game Warly can eat meaty stews as his first and only meal (1 when starving, second on 115 hunger), because you can hunt koala since day 2 (maybe earlier even).

Wendy doesn't need loads of flowers or beefalo, she does need to put skill and memory to remember how to make the best out of mobs aggro using 2 damage dealing instances from which one is fragile but heals slowly and consider size of the swarm (there is optimal size to trigger shield, decrease or increase of size leads to more fragility of Abigail). A bit later (for bosses) she needs to do minigame with pipspooks, but at least she can multitask during it.

Wormwood also can eat raw monster meat, red caps, etc, that otherwise would be unpicked, as well as generate tons of hunger points from seeds with minimal effort (past planning of location where he puts seeds in the ground), which makes 1.2 hunger unnoticeble; meaty stew still doubles hunger points of ingedients, so it's not like Wormwood starves to death while blooming constantly. Speed boost is cheap for him, but he has really good downside. It's not the same as having no downside and no upside, however.

She does perfectly fine with her songs, and half the world's food is sanity/healing food, which she doesn't need at all. In boss battles she can choose to eat still plentiful sanity/health restoring food or use songs and no food at all for restoring something other than hunger. Her real downside is actually 120 max hunger which makes meaty stew less good on her, but it is still very worth to cook.

WX didn't recieve rework yet.

Yes, I know she exceels at killing stuff including nightmares that only refill her weapon, she is supposed to be fragile yet is the best user of night armor and has infinite teleports that save both health and armor durability; and even at 100% health which is easy to maintain with 12 healing on 2 minutes cooldown she deals very decent damage with alarming clock, let alone all other weapons are available for her. 0.75 working efficiency on old Wanda is a joke since the only case you want to do this is hammer broken clockworks, every other gathering you are doing not in "combat mode", and even that aside you can still stay young or middle aged and make use of big range and damage of your weapon while gathering. I'm not even going to dicsuss how insanely good are her personal wormholes, incuding ability to teleport between caves and forest, ever since Wanda release lazy deserter craves for buff much more than before.

Question to you: how much pierogie do you usually consume over a year (filled with fighting)? That may explain some things.

Do you use one-man band on practice during early days to gather wood as non-Webber? Or are you speaking theoretically? Because from my experience pigs are even worse for early gathering that people think: they are scattered so you are wasting more time to gather them than gain due to their help (unless it's only 1 pig, I guess, but it's not much help), spider web is everywhere and they suicide themselves on it (unless you destroy dens, but agan, that wastes even more time, and t2 dens are not worth to destroy anyway), pigs don't work at dusk even if they are in range of light source (lantern, miner hat, glow berry fed to them - doesn't matter), and finally they can die to treeguard very easily, especially if it's like 4 of them (merms at least kite properly). For established wood farm though you need to gain initial tree seeds supply, as well as take your time and build pig farm, so in the end Webber is not as bad in gathering wood as you are trying to show.

Consistent in what way other than damage modifier? He was limited in strategy and tactic and gained nothing in return - both for area he was designed for and for team (unless you are able to make great use of dumbell for killing woven shadows, I guess, as well as see trading early boss fight tactics for aggroing koalephants as fair trade).

Of course it's small price to pay if it's not you paying.

Speed wasn't irrelevant, in fact, I tried to prove otherwise, but it wasn't coffee equvalent as people like to exaggerate. Small speed boost (25%) made experience more diverse, and if cost is a problem, then cost should be adjusted, not feature removed altogether, especially without compensation.

How do you feel reading "Wendy OP please nerf" threads?

I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, just like discussions.

Yes! Defend our honor, this game has so much depth for each character, and wolf is the only one to get the shafted without any returns in his own rework. We used to have our own thing now it's gonna be gone cause base builder characters can't wrap the wolf gameplay loop concept in their heads.  I guess wolf's ultimate power was temporary and now they crippled him.

5 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Wigfrid is not a character she is a tutorial.

People slander wolf's potential and call him easy, but even easy characters exist with reason.

Wolfgang's loop was very demanding, that's why wolf was constantly on the move and needing to continue working in order to sustain himself. It's why noobs died and why we saw our advanced players thrive they could overcome this need so they could only benefit.  Wolf is a character that punishes stagnation if the redesign followed that idea more there would be less issues in terms of people complaining about gameplay. This workout regimen is already the new limiter for Wolfgang to not be such a menace early game, but it has no alternatives and is the only way to get his might meter up it's annoying. Speed is up for debate but Wolfgang being gutted in his own rework ain't.

[Pig Princess]

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Yes! Defend our honor

 

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I guess wolf's ultimate power was temporary and now they crippled him.

Not yet, It's too early to give up! If you don't fight, you can't win! Fight, fight! Even after hotfix, even after release!

On a more serious note, I think enough time and creativity could allow Wolfgang to stay faithful to himself while also attracting new people to play him including megabasers, that is why first thing I did was reading what Wolfgang mains had to say, remembering my experience as him and other characters, defining how much Wolfgang's main focus appeal to my goals in game, and coming up with ideas that could enrich Wolfgang's experience while not sacrificing (as much as possible) what he already had. I mean, sometimes nerfs are good because they open possibilities, but this is not the case, and I tried to explain why I think so.

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

People slander wolf's potential and call him easy, but even easy characters exist with reason.

Problem arises when skill ceiling is low, and most people seem to focus on skill floor including Wolfgang-Wigfrid-Wendy discussions. Moreover, it's interesting that people who said "Wendy is bad because you can afk kill spiders" say that now Wolf is better even though he now has to afk more than before.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

 

Pig ai was improved a long time back so they do indeed chop just fine.

 

8 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

webber, wurt, wortox and warly aren't exsactly as good

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone has e ever played webber...

[Pig Princess]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Pig ai was improved a long time back so they do indeed chop just fine.

Last I checked (about 2 weeks ago) pigs refused to chop in the dusk even though they were in range of lit lantern and I chopped myself. I tried to give miner hat to them and feed them lesser glow berry, but it didn't work. I'm pretty sure pigs don't chop in the dusk under any circumstances, but when I'll get home, I'll try it again. Maybe you have a link where appropriate change was stated?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Maybe you have a link where appropriate change was stated?

i dont have the link but klei "improved" (is kinda buggy) all workers mobs, they dont stop working as often as they do and have more working range but pigs still being afraid of dark so they wont chop at dusk or night

[Pig Princess]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont have the link but klei improved all workers mob, they dont stop working as often as they do and have more working range but pigs still being afraid of dark so they wont chop at dusk or night

I tried to start chop process in the dusk, maybe @Mysterious box refers to situation when one started to chop during day, this one I don't remember testing. But I'm going to, as I said, although if it's true, it seems like a bug due to not switching behaviour when dusk arrive.

[Mysterious box]

20 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Last I checked (about 2 weeks ago) pigs refused to chop in the dusk even though they were in range of lit lantern and I chopped myself. I tried to give miner hat to them and feed them lesser glow berry, but it didn't work. I'm pretty sure pigs don't chop in the dusk under any circumstances, but when I'll get home, I'll try it again. Maybe you have a link where appropriate change was stated?

I'm talking about their work not time of day if they chopped at dusk and evening it would make merm more niche than they already are.

[DVGMedia]

4 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

deleted to not make really long topics from quoting
Idk how to set up quoting lol so im instead making an atlas
-Wendy talk

- Wolf refresh.

- Character rebuttal

I never really cared the op threads. I always knew wendy was strong even before the rework occured. so many of these op threads don't really bother me  she always excelled at stuff she was ment to and the refresh she got helped her to do that more so. Frankly I was a bit sad abby got a range buff.This ment now there is no skill to fight regular spiders.  I used to have 30 spider nests pre rework and it was fun to fight them all while gauging abby's health and resummoning when needed. But I lost that in the rework. But it is what it is Im happy they changed it to be from glass cannon wendy and they met a good comprimise.

i think the balance helps wolfgang but as others have stated in other threads i think the aspect of a speedboost is not the underlying issue. I feel it is more just the fact of needing to spend time on mighty rather than just playing the game.  The minigame and the dumbell  i feel the devs should go into the strongman route.
if you want to argue that food drain was a thing there was also the belt of hunger funcap strategy that people used on wolfgang. With it you could expand mighty to last the whole day since at full mighty it would drain at 100 a day.
Basically the same in what we have now. But honestly this is digressing.

like imagine if wigfrid every time she needed to use her songs she needed to play ddr to sing the right notes?
it really just cuts into the flow of the gameplay.  And that is what should be avoided in reworks.

Many wolfgang players i have seen usually have a nomadic playstyle so they never are just in one place. and seeing now they need to wait and gain might is what is really off putting I would say have him do things other characters cant and not just focus on his combat.


okay so character works
Everything you quoted me on still is based on players. Everything you said is possible if you know how to do it.
it still is the same every character that has downsides have ways to overcome them.
even if some are already strong to start with. hence wigfrid still basically being the same. but she gets more benefits when getting the songs.

Warly knowing what specific recipes they can use of course helps early since he can upgrade his food early with his pot.

one man band talk is funny because everyone ignores this item. but it really does have its use. Pigs got upgrades on chopping now so you don't need to watch them.
and no i never really use the band. I play wendy so i got meat to spare lol.exploring the forest for the 12 or so pig houses farming the spiders also getting wood and pipspooks as I go.
but i am just saying that is an option. for webber and wortox.

""Question to you: how much pierogie do you usually consume over a year (filled with fighting)? That may explain some things. """
I never really use it all that much.  only early game and majority of early game healing is done by gland shroom sleeping or butterflies for me.
I go the beefalo route so armor and weapons are non existant in my inventory unless we doing a boss a beef is bad for.

Wolfgangs refresh is not finished.  But I feel advocating for speed boost is not what should be done.
I would advocate for smoothing out his gameplay since they fragmented it with needing to lift.
And push for more strongman characteristics in his gameplay.

 

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm talking about their work not time of day if they chopped at dusk and evening it would make merm more niche than they already are.

I've already explained why pigs are bad for chopping when they actually chop. Summary:

1. Player wastes more time to gather meaningful mumber of them (>3) than saves due to their help considering one needs to manuver pigs around spider nests in the process and find suitable location for chopping (no spiders nearby); moreover, by the time you gather pigs not much day segments will be left (unless it's summer, I guess);

2. The moment pig steps on spider web your whole chopping crew is gone, followers chop far away from player since recently and therefore player has little control over their position once they started chopping process. Also spiders travel pretty far from their dens, and pigs aggro on spiders from significant distance, so you may not be able to turn them all into werepigs after dusk arrives due to them suiciding on spiders much earlier;

3. Treeguards basically make you waste the whole day because pigs can't kite it properly + they attack treeguards on sight. You can only attack one treeguard by yourself at a time, and even if you try to pacify remaining ones pig would reaggro them (by attacking or starting chop process); also you most likely will waste too much time fighting treeguards so day phase will change to dusk, when pigs are useless. You may be lucky and don't spawn treeguards, but it's very unreliable.

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

I always knew wendy was strong even before the rework occured

I asked this because people state that Wolfgang is OP and should be nerfed, but exaclty the same happens with Wendy after rework. And people don't suggest to rollback her to pre-rework level, it's basically suggestions that either doesn't change what they want to change in Wendy playstyle (max health reduction won't make Wendy fight Bee Queen or regular mobs in another way, same for 0.5x damage) or ask for crippling Abigail's niche - fighting crowds (so she is unable to do so because it's OP in the concept, apparently). You as Wendy player were lucky though: Wendy received buffs, and while she was no longer able to instantly resummon 600-hp Abigail after death, devs added cheap healing potions and shield that helps to make Abigail much more durable; insentive to fight together with Abigail and keep track of her health is still present both in boss fights and with crowds of regular mobs; Wolfgang players, on the other hand, received basically different character, and he was nerfed, not buffed, he can't be played the old way, they have no option to emulate old playsyle with new tools, and they didn't get an option to try something new in his kit unlike Wendy players, and then decide if they want to play expanded or classic version. Wendy lost afk sanity farms, but you seem to like active gameplay anyway, so I won't discuss it. It is unfair towards Wolfgang players compared to other reworked characters; no attempts were made so far to reach middle-ground, solution that satisfies majority in both camps, etc. In Wendy case they responded to feedback in noticeble way.

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

I feel it is more just the fact of needing to spend time on mighty rather than just playing the game.

This too, but it's you who don't feel speedboost, hunger drain, etc. were defining traits, a Wendy player, and I saw a number of people who stated they main Wolfgang and they consider these traits making Wolfgang feel unique. Also I explained speed tresholds in original post, don't ignore their existence, please.

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

the belt of hunger funcap strategy

You didn't get it. Increased hunger drain wasn't countered with items decreasing hunger drain like rain-eyebrella, but rather accepted and being countered with more food and optimization of game shedule. Why are you bringing hunger drain reducing items anyway? They don't suit a rush and nomadic playstyle even, it's a luxury items for late game; sure they are good on Wolfgang, but you are the first person who mentioned them after all these days.

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

like imagine if wigfrid every time she needed to use her songs she needed to play ddr to sing the right notes?
it really just cuts into the flow of the gameplay.  And that is what should be avoided in reworks.

Yes, many agree with this incuding me.

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

Everything you quoted me on still is based on players. Everything you said is possible if you know how to do it.

Wolfgang had downside, it was hunger drain; necessity to micromanage his stats can be also viewed as downside too (it doesn't mean that it's bad or people didn't like it though), if it wasn't enough for devs, they could expand downsides, but they just cut upsides and even hunger downside, which doesn't help to solve problem (if it's a problem) at all.

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

one man band talk is funny because everyone ignores this item. but it really does have its use

 

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

and no i never really use the band.

...

Then why are you brinning one-man band arguement? Anyway with meat pigs work just as bad, and I explained why I think so (I tried to use it in gameplay, e.i. tested it myself in real survival, on practice, in circumstances far from ideal, e.i. usual).

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

I never really use it all that much.  only early game and majority of early game healing is done by gland shroom sleeping or butterflies for me.
I go the beefalo route so armor and weapons are non existant in my inventory unless we doing a boss a beef is bad for.

So I get that you are hit a lot, that's the reason I asked about pierogie. And did you play Wanda, e.i. you yourself, with alarming clock maybe? Because seems like you are exaggerating how difficult it is to survive as her.

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

But I feel advocating for speed boost is not what should be done.

Still it's unclear why you think that speed boost "is not what should be done". Just feeling, without any clear reason? Intuition based on Wendy gameplay experience?

[Cloakingsumo198]

3 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

 Snip

The only person on our side fighting with numbers, history, opinions from both sides, and a sense of balance for both new and pro players. Really coming through in our final hours Pig princess. Thanks

[DVGMedia]

12 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Still it's unclear why you think that speed bost "is not what should be done". Just feeling, without any clear reason? Intuition based on Wendy gameplay experience?

Ive played every character been here even before he had such a mechanic such as food.
wolf was the first one i did adventure mode with. Back when he was just a stronger wilson without a beard.
1.5 dmg 200 hunger and health.

you know when i swap to another character its actually crazy how much of a difference the .75 dmg modifier is
Regular damage is crazy.
you get used to what a character has and it just becomes normal.

like for me I forget that abby has light and that pigs follow her at dusk
so i don't need to worry about carrying a light source to lead pigs which is something i forget.
even her less sanity drain is a thing i forget.

wolfs speed just felt like a perk you forget about existing.
since majority of the time you are not mighty.  only ever mighty during fights.
That is usually how people play him.

If im not lucky to get a cane in winter i go get a thule club. that 10 percent helps.
or i just start my beef that following summer.

when playing a character so long you kind of forget what its like to be basic.  and that is effectively what the game is modified for.

and honestly i fell into wendy because she has to deal with the least amount of worry.

don't need to worry about being mobbed.
don't need to worry about hounds
don't need to worry about light.
only need to worry about boss spawns which  happen on a set basis that you can prepare for.

[Cloakingsumo198]

8 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

Ive played every character been here even before he had such a mechanic such as food.
wolf was the first one i did adventure mode with. Back when he was just a stronger wilson without a beard.
1.5 dmg 200 hunger and health.

you know when i swap to another character its actually crazy how much of a difference the .75 dmg modifier is
Regular damage is crazy.
you get used to what a character has and it just becomes normal.

like for me I forget that abby has light and that pigs follow her at dusk
so i don't need to worry about carrying a light source to lead pigs which is something i forget.
even her less sanity drain is a thing i forget.

wolfs speed just felt like a perk you forget about existing.
since majority of the time you are not mighty.  only ever mighty during fights.
That is usually how people play him.

If im not lucky to get a cane in winter i go get a thule club. that 10 percent helps.
or i just start my beef that following summer.

when playing a character so long you kind of forget what its like to be basic.  and that is effectively what the game is modified for.

and honestly i fell into wendy because she has to deal with the least amount of worry.

don't need to worry about being mobbed.
don't need to worry about hounds
don't need to worry about light.
only need to worry about boss spawns which  happen on a set basis that you can prepare for.

Nobody forgot the speed, the speed was integral for some fights to be possible.  Characters have specific traits to be made unique just because people who play wolf are used to him doesn't mean their preference is invalidated.  And I'm sure you knew Wolfgang's who never powered down, there wasn't much purpose in lowering form except to not waste resources when idling.

[Pig Princess]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

The only person on our side fighting with numbers, history, opinions from both sides, and a sense of balance for both new and pro players.

Reading detailed posts from people who played Wolfgang much more than me helped a lot, as well as watching speedruns, rushes and challenges (and challenge fights) made as Wolfgang. @Josina's post helped a lot too, as well as my singeplayer experience that is somewhat similar to Wolfgang players, as it turned out. And also, ironically, playing Toros's mod, where a lot of features resembled current rework, changed my opinion about Wolfgang and his state of power. Finally, time passed and a lot of reworks came out, I tried quite a few of them. But I'm still just Wolfgang enthusiast, I don't think anybody who is Wolfgang main should count on me since, well, I don't like some features about him and have my own concept of fun. I still try to come up with flexible ideas and understand how others feel though, forgive me if I fail.

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Nobody forgot the speed, the speed was integral for some fights to be possible.  Characters have specific traits to be made unique just because people who play wolf are used to him doesn't mean their preference is invalidated.  And I'm sure you knew Wolfgang's who never powered down, there wasn't much purpose in lowering form except to not waste resources when idling.

I have known people like that But they would be using hunger modifying items. funcap hibernation vest belt of hunger.

and the speed in fights is the only thing argued for?
people everywhere saying that its part of his general gameplay.
majority of the time the player is not mighty and are just running around at normal pace.
his speed was such a minor part of his gameplay

only affecting how you can kite specific things.

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 minute ago, EsaiXD said:

only affecting how you can kite specific things.

How is that not useful? Also not true about running around in normal form, why do that when you could go mighty and save some travel time. The hibernation vest doesn't come out til after a whole year, and a hunger belt I guess if you went out of the way to farm some slurpers but then no backpack and other things.  Just because these items exist doesn't mean they were absolutely necessary to keep hunger up. Speed ain't minor at all how many items actually increase movement speed, if speed didn't matter people wouldn't fight over walrus tusk all the time lol

[DVGMedia]

3 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

How is that not useful? Also not true about running around in normal form, why do that when you could go mighty and save some travel time. The hibernation vest doesn't come out til after a whole year, and a hunger belt I guess if you went out of the way to farm some slurpers but then no backpack and other things.  Just because these items exist doesn't mean they were absolutely necessary to keep hunger up. Speed ain't minor at all how many items actually increase movement speed, if speed didn't matter people wouldn't fight over walrus tusk all the time lol

yeah but when you get a walking cane it always is there.
if speed was a thing why arent people fighting over thule clubs?
or rushing mag or even taming a beefalo the easiest speed boost to get?
speed is nice
but it really is not his defining factor as you say it is

 

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

I've already explained why pigs are bad for chopping when they actually chop. Summary:

1. Player wastes more time to gather meaningful mumber of them (>3) than saves due to their help considering one needs to manuver pigs around spider nests in the process and find suitable location for chopping (no spiders nearby); moreover, by the time you gather pigs not much day segments will be left (unless it's summer, I guess);

2. The moment pig steps on spider web your whole chopping crew is gone, followers chop far away from player since recently and therefore player has little control over their position once they started chopping process. Also spiders travel pretty far from their dens, and pigs aggro on spiders from significant distance, so you may not be able to turn them all into werepigs after dusk arrives due to them suiciding on spiders much earlier;

3. Treeguards basically make you waste the whole day because pigs can't kite it properly + they attack treeguards on sight. You can only attack one treeguard by yourself at a time, and even if you try to pacify remaining ones pig would reaggro them (by attacking or starting chop process); also you most likely will waste too much time fighting treeguards so day phase will change to dusk, when pigs are useless. You may be lucky and don't spawn treeguards, but it's very unreliable.

You can plant trees near their homes which is a easy solution and you really shouldn't need more than 3 choppers unless your mega basing which in that case why not just wait for bearager. Yea treeguards can kill them but it's not like merms never get killed by tree guards either they have the possibility to perfectly kit them doesn't mean they will.

[Pig Princess]

20 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

Ive played every character been here even before he had such a mechanic such as food.

 

20 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

Back when he was just a stronger wilson without a beard.
1.5 dmg 200 hunger and health.

Then your experience is quite outdated, not to mention that DS is very different from DST, and Adventure Mode differs from sandbox DS RoG nearly as much as RoG differs from DST. Goal of Adventure Mode is also very different from what one can choose in DST.

24 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

you get used to what a character has and it just becomes normal.

like for me I forget that

But the fact that you forget about character-specific features doesn't mean everyone does the same and takes it as default experience. 

28 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

wolfs speed just felt like a perk you forget about existing.
since majority of the time you are not mighty.  only ever mighty during fights.
That is usually how people play him.

 

14 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

I have known people like that But they would be using hunger modifying items. funcap hibernation vest belt of hunger.

"People play" or you played him like that? "Felt like a perk you forget about existing" - felt for whom?

And even if you saw people play him in this 2 ways, that doesn't mean there are no other ways to play him, you could just not happen to play with them or watch how they play. I mean speedrunners and rushers. But even them aside, 

19 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

only affecting how you can kite specific things.

These things are actually important and for some people change how they approach the game, e.i. what goals they choose and what strategies they use. The fact that you enjoy relaxed gameplay with moderate-low amount of fighting (at least it seems so) doesn't mean everyone plays that way. People do all boss rushes withing 1 year, speedrun specific ones, even megabasers sometimes use Wolfgang to rush megabase (Glerms), to fight things according to very tight shedule even in megabase world without setups or exploits using Wolfgang (Glerms). So if you don't value it, it doesn't mean thing has no value.

18 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

yeah but when you get a walking cane it always is there.

It is not always there, for example, before first winter, on pub even past winter (often), when you hold something other than walking cane, and most importantsly, it stacks with walking cane.

20 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

if speed was a thing why arent people fighting over thule clubs?

Because it competes with walking cane, second reason is that craft is expensive to use it as a weapon. When it comes to rushes though - no cheese Ancient Gueardian, Shadow Pieces before winter/early winter (considering task has less than 100% chance to drop) - people craft club, because club + magiluminescence surpass speed treshold for AG and same + road surpass speed treshold for Shadow Pieces. And people rush magi btw, as well as rush beefalo.

Wolfgang, for example, allows to skip ruins gear to fight Shadow Pieces before winter and Fuelweaver in the same conditions; Wolfgang allows to skip ruins and fight Klaus/Bee Queen smoothly and focus on other goals instead, Wolfgang allows to kite enraged Dragonfly and enraged Klaus, etc. Can you really not be bothered to read original post so I have to repeat the same thing about speed treshold fights? Or what was unclear in original post? I can try to go further into details.