Wolfgang's interaction with team

[Pig Princess]

Since I saw no patch notes other than initial announcement, I'm going to assume nothing has changed since then, correct me if I'm wrong or forgot something, please.

Goal of this topic is to gather in one place ideas that improve interaction between Wolfgang and other players without sinking in the ocean of balance discussions unrelated to team aspect (amount of posts after this weekend is too much to read even to me, person who likes reading long replies/threads).

The closest thing that comes close in announcement post is sanity drain - +25% for Wolfgang alone and +10% in vicinity of other players - but it's not a good example of team interaction because of following reasons:

1. Team doesn't gain from it anything;

2. Wolfgang doesn't gain either: he lessens his losses to the pre-rework level, but:

  a. Has to do extra steps for it;

  b. Doesn't have much tools to interact with (other than begging others do stuff together, I guess, which isn't appealing at all);

  c. Change itself is negligible.

I'd like to point out that by requiring extra work out of one's way to just lessen losses looks awfully similar to wildfires and their balance problems. I like to gain something in exchange to my time/resource investment, and a lot of people like the same as wildfire thread has shown.

Other than that there is nothing more about Wolfgang and team, and he still has insentive to clear ice boxes just because working in the gym requires hunger. On top of that now he eats extra rocks, gold nuggests and gems to be even as strong as Wilson (normal form), which doesn't sound any better as a concept.

I had some suggestions I posted earlier and some new ones that could partially solve this problem, although to be honest, I almost felt like my brain creaked, it was hard to imagine something more or less unique mechanically (not overlapping too much with strength of other surviviors), fitting for Wolfgang and not requiring reorganization of the content and code of the whole game. Here they are:

1. Make mighty Wolfgang to be able to knockback regular mobs and push bosses with swings to the verge of his melee range. That could be useful as alternative form of crowd control (especially with low damage weapon), as well as a way to push Celestial Champion from sleep-inducing crystals (but Wolfgang risks to fall asleep himself), Toadstool away from spore clouds/behind pond/closer to dwarf star/closer to any other advantageous to players position, Deerclops (on the verge of melee range his aura is much less than -400/min, for players who don't step back from aura's center for whatever reason it can be useful), Fuelweaver (away from woven shadows, from the center of insanity aura), make room for kiting Malbatross, interrupt Klaus's jump and deer's elemental attack, kick shark back to the ocean (preferably with punch).

2. Make mighty Wolfgand be able to throw characters/friendly creatures over gaps of water, void, mobs and bosses, walls, structures without dealing damage to them, the more speed creature has, the farther is the distance (send charged WX with enough speed boosts to the Atruim if generated withing telepoof distance from mainland, for example), maybe at the cost of hunger per throw.

3. Make Wolfgang in mighty form block damage (or part of it) coming from the front for surviviors and any allies standing behind him (cone AoE protection) and receiving this damage by Wolfgang himself (inspired by "parry" action in Forge).

Next ideas can improve team interaction in indirect way to save resources:

3. Make Wolfgang's sanity drain from darkness and creatures 2x when he is alone, but up to negligible amount (0.25x or something similar as a cap) the more friendly entities are nearby who are capable to fight (from non-sleeping/frozen players to befriended (even by other players) mobs, domesticated beefalo (including time while riding it), gestalts generated by celestial crown before they disappear, etc.). That could improve solo fights with Bee Queen crown, as well as team fights/activities since Wolfgang won't need as much sanity restoration as the others. Lunacy gain for Wolfgang can work the same way (the more players are nearby, the more lunacy gain tends to 0). This can be expanded on other players under certain conditions, and will differentiate from Wigfrid's song by being usable outside of battle, although about this part of an idea I'm not sure.

4. Make wimpy form be useful for something, like making hunger drain less than 1x in that form so one can save resources. Or make it more succeptable to all speed modifiers including beefalo (lore reason: Wolfgang is tiny and light in this form, less mass=more velocity he can gain from the same momentum), so Wolfgang could be the fastest beefalo rider when wimpy (carry resources, incentive to tame ornery as him to save even more resources).

I would like to see ideas regarding Wolfgang from other people, as well as possible changes to ideas suggested by me.

[Mike23Ua]

Well the best ideas I’ve seen so far are allow other players to climb on his Gym to speed up his Might gains (that’s too cute not to be in the game..) it would be neat if they gained Sanity from what would feel like a mechanical horse ride.

Remove Wolfgang’s Speed Perk altogether and when the full update comes out: add a new type of Tea or energy drink/bar that allows everyone to get that speed buff.

Allow Non-Wolfgang’s to carry Dumbells as useful Melee Weapons that would give them A little extra strength for a limited time (if the Dumbell sounds too stupid just let them have some good old Brass Knuckles) the intent is for Wolfgang to have a TEAM Craftable that lets Non-Wolfgang’s hit harder for a bit.

Allow Mighty Wolfgang to Yeet team mates across gaps of Water or Caves to let them explore the map faster.

Yeah that’s all I’ve got sorry  

[ArubaroBeefalo]

what @Scrimbles did is the perfect example.Give him a walter's scary story like perk

Gathering faster ar the cost of tool duranility

52 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Make mighty Wolfgang to be able to knockback regular mobs and push bosses

i like this one

gym usable by everyone

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

Not every character brings something to the team to use directly, some are just useful based on their abilities and efficiency in certain tasks.

[Pig Princess]

40 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Gathering faster ar the cost of tool duranility

Wouldn't Wolfgang be worse Woodie then, while also outclassed heavily by Bearger, Forest/Cave Stalker, Wurt's merms and Maxwell? Situational perks are also nice, but in case of Wolfgang (especially in beta) there is lack of main perks (e.i. defining ones, not flavor).

44 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

gym usable by everyone

And what would it give? If damage boost, then how would it be different from pepper spice? I mean, one obviously won't need peppers and would need to do minigame instead, but other than that it would be completely identical to pepper spice.

47 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

what @Scrimbles did

And what did he do? Sorry, after weekend there is so much threads and posts that I don't see myself reading them all. I would appreciate link. Although as far as I remember developers of Uncompromising mode just nerf characters, general mechanics and items, some of them in very annoying way and grindy way (acid rain; Bee Queen (same fight, but even more grindy than vanilla due to AoE); Wendy nerf that didn't really solve afk problem last I checked).

Question to you: would you play Wolfgang in Scrimbles's edition? Would you enjoy him more than pre-rework, current beta or based on other's suggestions if they were ever implemented? And do you think majority (not only forum users) would enjoy this Wolfgang edition?

50 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Not every character brings something to the team to use directly, some are just useful based on their abilities and efficiency in certain tasks.

What does Wolfgang bring indirectly? The more players are in the team, the less each individual modifier matters (it's noticeble with a group of 3 or 4 people already, but even with 2 damage modifiers have much less impact than solo). Also why are people so opposed to changes - other than nerfs in case of Wolfgang - but never thoroughtly explain why? "Too strong, nerf for the sake of balance" doesn't explain anything and doesn't help anyone.

[Cloakingsumo198]

12 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Wouldn't Wolfgang be worse Woodie then, while also outclassed heavily by Bearger, Forest/Cave Stalker, Wurt's merms and Maxwell? Situational perks are also nice, but in case of Wolfgang (especially in beta) there is lack of main perks (e.i. defining ones, not flavor).

And what would it give? If damage boost, then how would it be different from pepper spice? I mean, one obviously won't need peppers and would need to do minigame instead, but other than that it would be completely identical to pepper spice.

And what did he do? Sorry, after weekend there is so much threads and posts that I don't see myself reading them all. I would appreciate link. Although as far as I remember developers of Uncompromising mode just nerf characters, general mechanics and items, some of them in very annoying way and grindy way (acid rain; Bee Queen (same fight, but even more grindy than vanilla due to AoE); Wendy nerf that didn't really solve afk problem last I checked).

Question to you: would you play Wolfgang in Scrimbles's edition? Would you enjoy him more than pre-rework, current beta or based on other's suggestions if they were ever implemented? And do you think majority (not only forum users) would enjoy this Wolfgang edition?

What does Wolfgang bring indirectly? The more players are in the team, the less each individual modifier matters (it's noticeble with a group of 3 or 4 people already, but even with 2 damage modifiers have much less impact than solo). Also why are people so opposed to changes - other than nerfs in case of Wolfgang - but never thoroughtly explain why? "Too strong, nerf for the sake of balance" doesn't explain anything and doesn't help anyone.

What he used to bring was a one man army and just a general time savor he was faster than others and finished fights faster you could ask a Wolfgang to do something alone and he could generally do it with less resources if he was good enough.  I dunno how he feels now with his speed gone and mightiness being tied solely to his gym equipment. A good Wolfgang would always come out with more than he went in and he would be back home before the others. At least that's how I saw it if you think about other characters can accomplish certain tasks far better than him with a little bit of ingenuity but would take resources, setting up, and planning wolf just used himself he was an overall generalist.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Wouldn't Wolfgang be worse Woodie then, while also outclassed heavily by Bearger, Forest/Cave Stalker, Wurt's merms and Maxwell? Situational perks are also nice, but in case of Wolfgang (especially in beta) there is lack of main perks (e.i. defining ones, not flavor).

all gatherer characters are outclassed by bearger and forest stalker but that doesnt make them worst. Sometimes, and is something that a lot of players do, i simply wanna chop without needing to wait night and losing sanity or without the need of dealing with a boss with bugged aggro

it will make things like rushing toad easier in exchange of the speed

will improve his non good early game

will fit the theme of being a strong man with a value of 2 wilsons. The old concept of "wolfgang do everything quickly and easier but wasting more materials"

people dont play on organized servers with +6 players so this adds variety of picks since you might want someone who helps at gathering but not focused on it or dont wanna deal with woodie, maxwell or wurt for whatever reason

is a cool perk for cooperative and solo and sinergies with other items and character perks

btw, his main perk is dealing x2 damage. Everything else is just added to make the character deeper, define his personality and add fun to the kit

12 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

And what would it give? If damage boost, then how would it be different from pepper spice? I mean, one obviously won't need peppers and would need to do minigame instead, but other than that it would be completely identical to pepper spice.

why it couldn't be similar? if nobody dont picks warly you will have a team based perk to buff them and, if someone picks him you can do combo with him. Since is free make it less powerful than warly's spice

 

14 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

And what did he do? Sorry, after weekend there is so much threads and posts that I don't see myself reading them all.

doing exercises atracts mobs to watch (like the crows in the carnival event). Having players or mobs watching him raise his sanity while you raise the mighty meter. Also, idk if in the mod is included, it could work similar to walter's scary stories by giving sanity to the witness

 

18 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Question to you: would you play Wolfgang in Scrimbles's edition? Would you enjoy him more than pre-rework, current beta or based on other's suggestions if they were ever implemented? And do you think majority (not only forum users) would enjoy this Wolfgang edition?

i cant talk about others but, even if doesnt complete wolfgang's kit with it, i really like the "show man" perk giving sanity to others or the gym avaraible to everyone. Has sense that, im the midle of a dangerous place, wolfgang will train them to survive like how wilson creates new stuff, wicker taking care of the children plus teaching woodie how works his curses, wortox and willow disturbing maxwell... it makes the game lore more vivid

but i think he needs more than a gym and some sanity buff while working. I really like the gatherer perk for him

i trust klei and i think they will come with something that everybody will like. After all, even if wolfgang isnt the most played character, still being one of the most loved ones and more between the dst fans (the ones who spend money on the game) 

[Pig Princess]

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

all gatherer characters are outclassed by bearger and forest stalker but that doesnt make them worst

 

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

will improve his non good early game

So basically honey spice 2.0 except it's easier to get and can be done earlier, but nothing outstanding. While I'm not opposed particularly to this suggestion, I'm afraid too much little perks would just get rid of simplicity of the character (seems like Wolfgang mains value it, at least some of them).

Also it would be so much better if perks giving "Strongman" impression would be relevant and used often during all stages of the game rather than only at several of them (it's my wish for all characters, their personalities and unique playstyle reflecting that). In this example 2x damage would do much better job than 2x working force for creating feeling of playing Strongman (latter will quickly be forgotten due to better alternatives) that it makes me wondering: if it was ever added, why couldn't work-related ability be made better (to be not situational)? Or maybe it's the problem with my mindset "if you do something, do it good, otherwise don't do it at all", I don't know.

Another concern is expected playstyle, and various perks should fit nicely together from the point of gameplay loop. In order to chop faster (save time) Wolfgang would need to spend time to become mighty, and I feel like in vast majority of cases this would result in roughly the same gathering time, but more resources spent on tools and, optionally, on raising mightiness.

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

people dont play on organized servers with +6 players

People do organise spontaneously even if they don't know each other and/or didn't discuss plan beforehand, not always, but it's not a rare sight, I'm talking from experience. Case 1: I was Wormwood who joined in winter, discovered common base, started to farm living logs with excessive glands and rot I brought with me, local Wortox came, released souls and got their stack of living logs without a single word; in the same world Wolfgang came with construction amulets and deconstruction staves and brought pigs back from extinction; also there were Wigfrids who did really great job at crowd controlling grumble bees and producing helmets; in spring I as the fastest player and one who can avoid wasting resources after spamming wormhole jumps was the one who went into far away locations for resources, etc. Felt good, although it's a shame we waited too long to organise resources before fight so misery toad became regular. Case 2: I was Woodie who rushed lunar island and built celestial portal, then became Warly; meanwhile Wormwood farmed crops, Wolfgang and Wendy did ruins, then Bee Queen, Maxwell gathered basic resources; then we all killed Fuelweaver and a couple other bosses, all being completely random people to each other. Case 3: I was Wortox, and after random Wigfrid killed gem deer I rage quitted forest shard; meanwhile Wendy and Wolfgang did ruins; we knew each other, but didn't plan anything on that server, I just found them randomly in the caves and provided much needed healing and pig skin supply. Of course there were cases when I was on my own, but it wasn't vast majority of them.

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

is a cool perk for cooperative and solo and sinergies with other items and character perks

I like synergies too, and the more powerful they happen to be, the more I like them. I don't see 2x working force while mighty as part of powerful synergy because Woodie in exact same conditions will chop faster by hand anyway, rooks do most of the hammering, and that leaves to Wolfgang only mining with Maxwell/merms alternative among "manual" miners. Okayish potential perk, may save time in the ruins at the cost of resources.

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

why it couldn't be similar?

It can be, but similar is not identical, and so far it seems Klei try to avoid full copies of powers.

Also the more people are in the server, the less extra damage modifiers matter because even bosses melt in the blink of an eye in case both 4 or 8 people. Damage modifiers matter when people do stuff alone or as duo though (while dividing tasks, for example), so if gym could be used without Wolfgang nearby, then I can see a benefit.

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Having players or mobs watching him raise his sanity while you raise the mighty meter

I feel like raising sanity while showcasing something is Maxwell's thing thematically, after all he is known for desire to be famous, the most unique among all people and just the center of attention, although after all events in the Constant Maxwell's magic tricks would probably lower sanity of nearby surviviors. Wolfgang seems to me to be more self-focused and having problems with self-esteem, as well as self-confidence.

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

it could work similar to walter's scary stories by giving sanity to the witness

Did you see many Walters using that perk? It would have inherent problem Walter's talk has: requirement to idling, which is the reason I see people hating beta Wolfgang's mightiness with passion, neglect tents, feather hat, don't utilize sisturn/Glommer sanity aura (rate is too low to waste time on that unlike BQC + obelisk, for example).

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

im the midle of a dangerous place, wolfgang will train them to survive like how wilson creates new stuff, wicker taking care of the children plus teaching woodie how works his curses, wortox and willow disturbing maxwell... it makes the game lore more vivid

Except both lorewise and mechanically Wigfrid raises morale and toughens surviviors, and Wes raises spirit of the team in other way, but I can see utility of this feature out of combat and on the go. Still doesn't fit Wolfgang in my opinion.

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i trust klei and i think they will come with something that everybody will like

After seeing state of Wurt's gameplay (bugs, absence of coherence) for years and copy-pasted Twins (Eye of the Terror 2x with 2x health each, basically) I don't. As well as after them releasing alarming clock before realizing that it broke most of the fights (before stunlock changes), after seeing alarming clock keep 75+ damage per swing as well as full range even on young and middle-aged Wanda - and suddenly she has no incentive to even use dark sword ever despite Klei buffing dark sword for Wanda specifically, as well as very little insentive to stay at 25% instead of 75%. I'm not hating her btw, she has cool concept and execution is almost excellent, but alarming clock's damage breakpoints is a serious flaw. And there also was time during early access when Wanda did ham bat damage with empty clock at 100% hp, how could devs not see that it absolutely shouldn't be that way even before early access?

5 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

you could ask a Wolfgang to do something alone and he could generally do it with less resources

Except it's basically playing Wolfgang solo. Compare with Wormwood-Wortox or Warly-Wolfgang/Wanda/Wigfrid dynamics, even Woodie(weremoose)-Wortox can be good. Why choosing to not ask for content when it's perfectly fine to, when it can improve multiplayer experience and worse case scenario be neglected in favor of old solo-like Wolfgang playstyle? I agree that having double damage is quite strong solo though, it's just not an excuse to leave it as only thing Wolfgang can perform.

[Cloakingsumo198]

16 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

 

So basically honey spice 2.0 except it's easier to get and can be done earlier, but nothing outstanding. While I'm not opposed particularly to this suggestion, I'm afraid too much little perks would just get rid of simplicity of the character (seems like Wolfgang mains value it, at least some of them).

Also it would be so much better if perks giving "Strongman" impression would be relevant and used often during all stages of the game rather than only at several of them (it's my wish for all characters, their personalities and unique playstyle reflecting that). In this example 2x damage would do much better job than 2x working force for creating feeling of playing Strongman (latter will quickly be forgotten due to better alternatives) that it makes me wondering: if it was ever added, why couldn't work-related ability be made better (to be not situational)? Or maybe it's the problem with my mindset "if you do something, do it good, otherwise don't do it at all", I don't know.

Another concern is expected playstyle, and various perks should fit nicely together from the point of gameplay loop. In order to chop faster (save time) Wolfgang would need to spend time to become mighty, and I feel like in vast majority of cases this would result in roughly the same gathering time, but more resources spent on tools and, optionally, on raising mightiness.

People do organise spontaneously even if they don't know each other and/or didn't discuss plan beforehand, not always, but it's not a rare sight, I'm talking from experience. Case 1: I was Wormwood who joined in winter, discovered common base, started to farm living logs with excessive glands and rot I brought with me, local Wortox came, released souls and got their stack of living logs without a single word; in the same world Wolfgang came with construction amulets and deconstruction staves and brought pigs back from extinction; also there were Wigfrids who did really great job at crowd controlling grumble bees and producing helmets; in spring I as the fastest player and one who can avoid wasting resources after spamming wormhole jumps was the one who went into far away locations for resources, etc. Felt good, although it's a shame we waited too long to organise resources before fight so misery toad became regular. Case 2: I was Woodie who rushed lunar island and built celestial portal, then became Warly; meanwhile Wormwood farmed crops, Wolfgang and Wendy did ruins, then Bee Queen, Maxwell gathered basic resources; then we all killed Fuelweaver and a couple other bosses, all being completely random people to each other. Case 3: I was Wortox, and after random Wigfrid killed gem deer I rage quitted forest shard; meanwhile Wendy and Wolfgang did ruins; we knew each other, but didn't plan anything on that server, I just found them randomly in the caves and provided much needed healing and pig skin supply. Of course there were cases when I was on my own, but it wasn't vast majority of them.

I like synergies too, and the more powerful they happen to be, the more I like them. I don't see 2x working force while mighty as part of powerful synergy because Woodie in exact same conditions will chop faster by hand anyway, rooks do most of the hammering, and that leaves to Wolfgang only mining with Maxwell/merms alternative among "manual" miners. Okayish potential perk, may save time in the ruins at the cost of resources.

It can be, but similar is not identical, and so far it seems Klei try to avoid full copies of powers.

Also the more people are in the server, the less extra damage modifiers matter because even bosses melt in the blink of an eye in case both 4 or 8 people. Damage modifiers matter when people do stuff alone or as duo though (while dividing tasks, for example), so if gym could be used without Wolfgang nearby, then I can see a benefit.

I feel like raising sanity while showcasing something is Maxwell's thing thematically, after all he is known for desire to be famous, the most unique among all people and just the center of attention, although after all events in the Constant Maxwell's magic tricks would probably lower sanity of nearby surviviors. Wolfgang seems to me to be more self-focused and having problems with self-esteem, as well as self-confidence.

Did you see many Walters using that perk? It would have inherent problem Walter's talk has: requirement to idling, which is the reason I see people hating beta Wolfgang's mightiness with passion, neglect tents, feather hat, don't utilize sisturn/Glommer sanity aura (rate is too low to waste time on that unlike BQC + obelisk, for example).

Except both lorewise and mechanically Wigfrid raises morale and toughens surviviors, and Wes raises spirit of the team in other way, but I can see utility of this feature out of combat and on the go. Still doesn't fit Wolfgang in my opinion.

After seeing state of Wurt's gameplay (bugs, absence of coherence) for years and copy-pasted Twins (Eye of the Terror 2x with 2x health each, basically) I don't. As well as after them releasing alarming clock before realizing that it broke most of the fights (before stunlock changes), after seeing alarming clock keep 75+ damage per swing as well as full range even on young and middle-aged Wanda - and suddenly she has no incentive to even use dark sword ever despite Klei buffing dark sword for Wanda specifically, as well as very little insentive to stay at 25% instead of 75%. I'm not hating her btw, she has cool concept and execution is almost excellent, but alarming clock's damage breakpoints is a serious flaw. And there also was time during early access when Wanda did ham bat damage with empty clock at 100% hp, how could devs not see that it absolutely shouldn't be that way even before early access?

Except it's basically playing Wolfgang solo. Compare with Wormwood-Wortox or Warly-Wolfgang/Wanda/Wigfrid dynamics, even Woodie(weremoose)-Wortox can be good. Why choosing to not ask for content when it's perfectly fine to, when it can improve multiplayer experience and worse case scenario be neglected in favor of old solo-like Wolfgang playstyle? I agree that having double damage is quite strong solo though, it's just not an excuse to leave it as only thing Wolfgang can perform.

Cause you gotta find a sensible way to make it work whilst pleasing the masses

[ArubaroBeefalo]

25 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

So basically honey spice 2.0 except it's easier to get and can be done earlier, but nothing outstanding. While I'm not opposed particularly to this suggestion, I'm afraid too much little perks would just get rid of simplicity of the character (seems like Wolfgang mains value it, at least some of them).

honey spice doesnt make you waste more durability and it could be more effective

right now is more than simple, he needs more

27 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Also it would be so much better if perks giving "Strongman" impression would be relevant and used often during all stages of the game rather than only at several of them (it's my wish for all characters, their personalities and unique playstyle reflecting that). In this example 2x damage would do much better job than 2x working force for creating feeling of playing Strongman (latter will quickly be forgotten due to better alternatives) that it makes me wondering: if it was ever added, why couldn't work-related ability be made better (to be not situational)? Or maybe it's the problem with my mindset "if you do something, do it good, otherwise don't do it at all", I don't know.

i didnt say x2 working and the x2 damage is already a perk and you see how upset are everyone

28 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Another concern is expected playstyle, and various perks should fit nicely together from the point of gameplay loop. In order to chop faster (save time) Wolfgang would need to spend time to become mighty, and I feel like in vast majority of cases this would result in roughly the same gathering time, but more resources spent on tools and, optionally, on raising mightiness.

but you wanna be close to mighty all the time to be ready to fight so why not adding something that helps him instead of making the mighty meter an annoying thing to take care with the only benefit of dealing with hounds outside of boss fights?

29 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I like synergies too, and the more powerful they happen to be, the more I like them. I don't see 2x working force while mighty as part of powerful synergy because Woodie in exact same conditions will chop faster by hand anyway, rooks do most of the hammering, and that leaves to Wolfgang only mining with Maxwell/merms alternative among "manual" miners. Okayish potential perk, may save time in the ruins at the cost of resources.

again, nobody said that it should be x2 work power. And what is the deal with woodie? he is a cheap chopper that has exploration and aoe tank perks meanwhile wolfgang will be a single target fighter that also destroys trees and rocks by destroying axes and pick axes. Again, maxwell vs woodie scenario. Not a valid argument against wolfgang's potential gathering perk

31 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

People do organise spontaneousl....

what i tried to say with that is that isnt the most common thing to have a group of players picking the best of each rol. When i play with friends one might pick weeber (fighting oriented), another wigfrid (fighting oriented) and me wurt (fight and gathering oriented) instead of picking a more effective combination like max+wigfrid+warly or whatever so characters having differnt but similar perks makes the character selection richer rather than "would be great to have max or woodie, piiiick them" but you wanna play a fighting character, you pick wolfg and atleast you can help in that. Is a silly example but i hope i explained it well

35 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I feel like raising sanity while showcasing something is Maxwell's thing thematically, after all he is known for desire to be famous, the most unique among all people and just the center of attention, although after all events in the Constant Maxwell's magic tricks would probably lower sanity of nearby surviviors. Wolfgang seems to me to be more self-focused and having problems with self-esteem, as well as self-confidence.

as shown in the compendium a lot ofpeople enjoyned wolfgan's show, would fit thematicaly and gameplay wise

36 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Did you see many Walters using that perk? It would have inherent problem Walter's talk has: requirement to idling, which is the reason I see people hating beta Wolfgang's mightiness with passion, neglect tents, feather hat, don't utilize sisturn/Glommer sanity aura (rate is too low to waste time on that unlike BQC + obelisk, for example)

that isnt popular doesnt make it bad

37 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

After seeing state of Wurt's gameplay (bugs, absence of coherence) for years and copy-pasted Twins (Eye of the Terror 2x with 2x health each, basically) I don't. As well as after them releasing alarming clock before realizing that it broke most of the fights (before stunlock changes), after seeing alarming clock keep 75+ damage per swing as well as full range even on young and middle-aged Wanda - and suddenly she has no incentive to even use dark sword ever despite Klei buffing dark sword for Wanda specifically, as well as very little insentive to stay at 25% instead of 75%. I'm not hating her btw, she has cool concept and execution is almost excellent, but alarming clock's damage breakpoints is a serious flaw. And there also was time during early access when Wanda did ham bat damage with empty clock at 100% hp, how could devs not see that it absolutely shouldn't be that way before even before early access?

that is problem of the community. We always say that balance doesnt matter but it does, one thing is having every character balanced arround the others, which is bad a limits creativity and stuck the difficulty of the game in one level, and other is just throwing op things and smile at them just because is different

I love wanda but i got bored of playing her because all the free time that you have since the only thing that you need to farm is NM, reeds and honey. No weapons, no food, almost nothing to fight bosses (is the easier character to do a no hit beequeen), etc

atleast they fixed most of the permastunlocks

and im stop here since i have already "tryhard" as noble title over this lands

About wurt... is sad all the bugs but gameplay wise is one of the best characters. I think the problem with wurt is that people dont give her an opportunity, they dont like late game worlds or they dont like her gameplay per se. Wurt was the character that i have played the most in a single world, with others i always get bored because annoying rather than challenging downsides, being to easy or just i dont enjoy them. Wurt is so comfortable, maybe isnt the stronger at anything in the game but the whole picture makes her a very fun character, atleast in my opinion

45 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Except both lorewise and mechanically Wigfrid raises morale and toughens surviviors, and Wes raises spirit of the team in other way, but I can see utility of this feature out of combat and on the go. Still doesn't fit Wolfgang in my opinion.

so they will let wilsn still being a nerd that cant beat a boss when they have one of the strongers men in the entire europe that could share tips, prepare routines, etc. You can not like the idea but it fits, more than a magical song that heals the wounds

 

[Pig Princess]

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

honey spice doesnt make you waste more durability and it could be more effective

I know, but I compared effect on gathering time, which would be the same + they could stack if Warly would around

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i didnt say x2 working

True, my bad, but number could be adjusted, of course.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how upset are everyone

Not everyone seems to be upset, also most upset comes from speed loss, mainly because it gave opportunities to rush some bosses without ruins gear and thus cave lag (enraged Klaus), as well as unique ways of fighting bosses like Guille's Fuelweaver no lazy explorer no nightmare amulet fight, enraged Dragonfly armorless (now this one has a problem due to speed boost loss and lowered maximum hp), I myself can guess shadow pieces with only surface gear (variety in strategies of how to spend 1st autumn), maybe tier 3 rook previously possible and now impossible to kite even without walking cane on road, I didn't test, to be honest. Moreover, speed buff could be not removed entirely, but reworked, so it's not as easy as eating carrots, and relative cheap cost seems why people are so against it and so happy about it's loss (those who don't play Wolfgang, at least), also scienceless rushes were affected. This is what forms skill ceiling of Wolfgang character, it's natural that people who enjoyed it and who watched such videos are upset.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but you wanna be close to mighty all the time

How viable it is to stay mighty all the time though considering Wolfgang idles during gym minigame or dumbell usage? If one happens to be mighty while in need of some basic resources, then why not, I guess.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

And what is the deal with woodie

 

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Again, maxwell vs woodie scenario

No, Maxwell vs Woodie is comparison of similar, yet different strategies of farming wood, they are customisable in different ways, use different resources and produce qualitatively different results in case wereBeaver. Woodie vs Wolfgang's in your suggestion would be customisable in identical ways, use differnt resouces and produce qualitatively different results in case wereBeaver. So basically Maxwell and Woodie overlap less than Wolfgang in your suggestion and Woodie. Qualitative difference in results comes down to amount of living logs produced in both comparisons.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

what i tried to say with that is that isnt the most common thing to have a group of players picking the best of each rol

Yes, that explained better your way of thought, it could help group to be statistically more suited for wide variety of tasks because of characters having perks in more areas (pool of perks is larger). Fair enough.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

as shown in the compendium a lot ofpeople enjoyned wolfgan's show

But that doesn't tell anything about Wolfgang's feeling towards success. Was he happy because gained what he desired, took it for granted or was he in trap of insecurity about his might and personality in general despite succes? I guess we will see on thursday.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that isnt popular doesnt make it bad

It actually does because it means people are not enjoying that part of game, e.i. not getting the main thing they want, and less enjoyable game translates into less sales thus less money for devs; this includes character and belonings skins, but I can also see how one deciding whether to buy DST or not after DS would not buy it if they are interested in Wolfgang and don't like rework).

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

I love wanda but i got bored of playing her because all the free time that you have since the only thing that you need to farm is NM, reeds and honey. No weapons, no food, almost nothing to fight bosses (is the easier character to do a no hit beequeen), etc

 

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that is problem of the community. We always say that balance doesnt matter but it does, one thing is having every character balanced arround the others, which is bad a limits creativity and stuck the difficulty of the game in one level, and other is just throwing op things and smile at them just because is different

You admit that alarming clock has problems and it worsened your experience with Wanda, but at the same time seem to blame community. Final decisions, however, were made by Klei, so I'm confused about your point of view, and I'm not even sure if Klei would loose or gain if they rebalanced alarming clock a bit more (after all, veteran players also buy a lot of skins, and even low/middle-skilled players can have taste for difficulty/balance).

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and im stop here since i have already "tryhard" as noble title over this lands

I remember you as megabaser who enjoys Wurt and doesn't enjoy exploits, who is also capable of explaining your position. But as you wish.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

I think the problem with wurt is that people dont give her an opportunity, they dont like late game worlds or they dont like her gameplay per se

Wurt has the longest time before one can reap benefits of time and effort invested into her, closest second is Warly, somewhere around are Wickerbottom and Winona with their farms. It's not a coincidence people don't play them much, they probably are just not enjoying waiting that long. Personally, I like Warly (probably played him more than Wilba in DS at this point), but Wurt for me is just too much time investment, she also has very repetitive board grind (farms, goat pen, let alone honey farm seem far less repetitive to me), and while she definitely has potential, right now she has numerous problems with gameplay loop:

1. Wurt benefits from sea fish the most yet is the one who struggles in a tedious way much more than every single other character because of scarcity of vegetable food there (before one has bundles; but that means no fish rush, and relying on boss loot for that is strange anyway). It could be fixed by addition of extra biomes to ocean with vegetable food like waterlogged, so Wurt can have more options rather than kelp if she didn't discover waterlogged or didn't roll corn cod/popper fish.

2. Wurt can build merm kindom, yet merms suicide themselves on T2 spider dens just as fine as pigs, which doesn't help to farm wood early in thick forests, let alone swarm of spiders eating fish needed for huts. Tentacle spots are even more grindy, and King of the Merms doesn't really help until farm is already established (when it's too late) due to his loot table of trades. I suspect Wickerbottom and Wendy can farm tentacle spots easier and faster, at least initial supply which is really a bottleneck of merm kindom development.

3. King of the Merms should help Wurt with tentacle spots, food and give nice cheap bonus stats, but in fact he hinders her more than helps because of low drop rate of tentacle spots, specific crops (I was looking mainly for pumpkin), expensive craft (so one better starts farming from random seeds rather than gather kelp and hope for specific), all useless trinkets honestly feel like insult solo, and he has very short lifespan which ties Wurt to one place. Idk how to fix that and 2nd issue. Oh, and there are also merm civil wars which have enconveniences stretching them no matter alive KotM or not (by either boosted hp of merms or their lowered damage and increased respawn time).

4. Even flavor perk of eating kelp is actually disadvantage because in lunar areas one is insentivised to keep lunacy low. On the mainland there is enough food outside of random kelp from KotM and seeds, not to mention all that stuff is inconvenient to bring on long trips. Merms are even damaged by eating said kelp, bruh.

5. Gold issue. While initial supply is easy to get, without trinkets trading Wurt either has to go further and further for gold, or live in the caves for earthquakes. Latter would be ok if there was a way to restore freshness of any fish (seasonal from surface and cave-exclusive) to at least save some resource cost compared to Wilson related to sanity drain and weather effects (it adds up after hundreds of days), but there isn't, and even though star-sky is technically non-spoiling fish, there is only 1 star-sky in the world, which is a problem for multiplayer (experience Wurt was designed for).

Also we probably shouldn't discuss Wurt here, it's offtopic.

But Wolfgang and any other rework/new character should avoid there design flaws, and that is the reason I wrote them.

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

so they will let wilsn still being a nerd that cant beat a boss when they have one of the strongers men in the entire europe that could share tips, prepare routines, etc.

I'm confused by your wording, I didn't get what you wanted to tell. I agreed earlier that such perk could have some use even if I personally don't see it fit lorewise and would rather have something different.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

14 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I'm confused by your wording, I didn't get what you wanted to tell. I agreed earlier that such perk could have some use even if I personally don't see it fit lorewise and would rather have something different.

just that for me sounds logical that wolfgang trains the weakest survivors to survive easier

[Mike23Ua]

I came up with a few more perk ideas for teamwork, Wolfgang feels “encouraged” by being near others (Aka he has a Feastclops sized invisible AOE circle) and when at least 2 other players are near to him he puts more effort into proving his Might (3x Mightiness) Yes it’s broken.. but he is the strongest after all.. Motivated to prove his might to his audience with shock & awe to them.

Wolfgang can “wrestle lock” a larger mob that is charging towards another player as in he directly grabs hold of it and prevents his team mate from getting impaled by Clockwork rooks horn, pushing him back like a “Blockers Defense” The Wrestle lock can only be triggered when Wolfgang is trying to PROTECT a Weaker entity (Other Player or Pig Follower) because in direct confrontation 1 v 1 with no other players around he instead wants to honorably do battle against them with his own physical Mightiness.

[Well-met]

i dont think every character needs some sort of team buff ability.