My Suggested Rebalance of Terra Start

[crbd115]

So recently the terra start was changed which I think it was in the right direction of making it more in line with the rest of the starts but I think it was gone about in the wrong way. I do think the rest of the starting clusters need to be rebalanced as well but I'm starting with terra and I will do similar with the swamp and forest.  I apologize if this is long I attempted to keep everything organized and I didn't want to over dump info. If there's anything I don't explain the reasoning on well enough I apologize. I figured I can respond to questions or constructive criticism rather then making this post any longer then it already is. 

Barren Biome (upper crust) and Frozen Biome

Spoiler

I decreased the size of the upper crust slightly because in all of my playthroughs I've just found it to be unnecessarily large. In the generation settings I lowered it from 1.3 to just 1. It still looks mostly the same just not as thick. I then replaced the type of frozen biome from slush to the normal version. Since this is terra I didn't see a need to have a bunch of salt and rust on the first planetoid since there is no rust biome to utilize it. Also this version seems to generally have a few more wheezeworts. I also added in a Anti entropy thermo nullifier poi. This gives the player access to some early to mid game cooling before having access to steam turbines and aquatuners. Which I think was the main weakness of the terra before they added slush geysers. Also the wheezeworts are useful for the radiation. I removed the cool slush geysers as I personally believe they should only be used on cold focused challenges rather then just acting as the main solution to the maps heat.

Starting Biome and Wasteland

Spoiler

I didn't make any changes here. I know that the devs expanded the size of the starting biome for newer players and I think that's fine. The wasteland is meant to be easy to explore with the only real return being a large amount of non renewable resources and there aren't any random or guaranteed geysers here so I don't think there needs to be any changes.

Marsh Biome

Spoiler

I replaced the cool steam vent (that used to be in the marsh before the current update), with a polluted water vent and the oxygen that was in the poi with polluted oxygen. I think this makes much more sense in following the theme of the biome and is just easier to deal with in terms of heat for newer players. 

I also added a slimy polluted oxygen vent. My main plan was to have the two main supporting biomes each have a renewable water source and a renewable gas source. This I think fits the biomes theme and gives the player a source to either use as oxygen or a way to feed pufts.

 

Jungle Biome

Spoiler

I replaced the cool steam vent here with a hot water geyser and guaranteed the chlorine vent poi. Having a renewable source of chlorine I think is a good way to give players the ability to have reneawable bleach stone and is low on the side of heat.

 

Barren Biome (lower crust) and Magma Core

Spoiler

I removed the random neutronium pieces that generate in the magma core and moved the 3 minor volcanoes that appear in the barren biome down to the magma core. Then I put some curated random geysers to the barren biome rather then having them spawn up in the map above. There is one guaranteed natural gas vent, and then 3 random ones from a list of Steam, Hot Steam, Hot CO2, Natural Gas with no duplicates. The idea is this is meant to be heat focused geysers close to the hottest part of the map where it would make the most sense for them to be and this also allows a more suitable reward to players who decide to dig down rather then just 3 volcanos they have no way to use until much later in the game. It also just makes better use of the space on the map since the core had almost nothing going on and the random geysers plus all the poi above made the map feel cluttered.

Full Map View

Spoiler

Cluster Changes

Spoiler

I moved the oil planetoid one tile closer. It doesn't always happen to end up this close to the radiation one but I haven't figured out how to guarantee that they will be further apart while still being closer to the main planetoid. This change is more for the no teleporter run so that the player doesn't have to attempt one way trips that can end in duplicant death if one mistake is made before they get to better rockets.

 

Oily Planetoid

Spoiler

I replaced the frozen biome that was here (now that there is one on the main planetoid) and the rust biome, with the ocean biome. I then put in the salt water geyser poi and had a curated random geyser that can either be a hydrogen or chlorine vent. Chlorine for bleach stone for lettuce and hydrogen because the biome has a lot of hydrogen and if the player has gotten far enough in the game to take over this planetoid they can probably tame a hydrogen vent if they want. Part of the reason I put the ocean biome here is for the salt water poi so now the player has access to renewable forms of 3 water types and also to have each of the 3 main planetoids to be self sustainable. Also I think the ocean biome makes a lot of sense to synergize with the swamp for all the sand to filter and the pokeshells to eat the polluted dirt. Also this far into the game the player may want to consider renewable lime for steel production. I also moved the other curated random geyser spawns to the barren biome with the one guaranteed sulfur geyser. The random geysers are 3 from the list of hot CO2, Minor Volcano, Volcano, steam, hot steam, and natural gas.

Radiation Planetoid

Spoiler

So here I replaced the ocean biome with the rust biome. I think the rust biome makes more sense here instead of the ocean biome as it gives rust for early oxygen, ethanol for early power (which you can transition into later game with arbor trees) and nosh beans for food. The ocean was just not that helpful in setting up a colony with the forest biome outside of the limited water it provided which the forest biome already has. Also I replaced the random geysers here with a guaranteed polluted water geyser in the forest and a guaranteed chlorine vent for salt production. The map already has a lot going on in terms of volcanos and the 2 liquid co2 geysers so I don't think it needs much in terms of geysers.

My overall plan was to make base terra more manageable without making it too easy either. This gives newer players more room to learn and gives them the tools to learn. Though it hopefully without make it boring for returning players. I know a lot of people asked for slush geysers over the cool steam vents but I think this is a reasonable compromise. I think that cool slush geysers need to be used and treated as the opposite challenge to cool steam vents. Maybe there could be a world setting or trait combining rime with frozen core where the biomes and geysers are replaced with cold/frozen versions of the current version. The core would be frozen core with cold geysers instead of volcanoes, the water geysers would be slush geysers, and the gas vents would be cold or liquid. Definitely not liquid O2 when replacing the slimy pO2 but cold pO2 is a possibility.

[Sasza22]

I generally agree with the changes, especially with providing a salt water source for lettuce production. What i don`t agree is moving the volcanoes into the magma. I feel like having them above it is better when we plan to utilize them for steam turbines without breaking the abyssalite barrier to the magma biome.

[crbd115]

2 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

I generally agree with the changes, especially with providing a salt water source for lettuce production. What i don`t agree is moving the volcanoes into the magma. I feel like having them above it is better when we plan to utilize them for steam turbines without breaking the abyssalite barrier to the magma biome.

So as far as dealing with the magma core I consider that a higher skill level part of the game. Most of the time when I go down there I make a vaccum entry way anyway while breaking as little abysallite as possible. By the time most players know how to do this they would also know how to deal with a volcano. The barren biome however is not that hot and full of useful resources that you can get to without issue fairly early if you want to. If a newer player opens up a volcano down there they could be in a lot of trouble and if they don't know how to handle it they are screwed. At least with it in the magma core with it is quite obvious to them whether or not this is a good idea. With the geysers that are moved into the barren biome in my changes you will always have at least one nat gas for power (or cooking), and then you could have a second nat gas or a hot steam geyser for both power and water. I think this is more reasonable for how the biome itself is currently designed.

Also I always found the basic version of the magma core boring without anything down there, and the random neutronium fairly annoying. Plus there is a close to 50% chance you would get a volcano on the oil planetoid in the barren biome.

[Sasza22]

20 hours ago, crbd115 said:

If a newer player opens up a volcano down there they could be in a lot of trouble and if they don't know how to handle it they are screwed.

Most of the time you uncover a volcano and leave it alone it will just cover itself with igneous rock. Unless you dig everything around it it won`t cause much problems. Especially if you lock it off with a wall which most newer players will likely do when seeing it. What i like about them is that it`s a heat source you can use without fully comitting to handling the core.

Anyway i also think the core is pretty bland. It could get some volcanoes under the magma as well.

[crbd115]

2 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

Most of the time you uncover a volcano and leave it alone it will just cover itself with igneous rock. Unless you dig everything around it it won`t cause much problems. Especially if you lock it off with a wall which most newer players will likely do when seeing it. What i like about them is that it`s a heat source you can use without fully comitting to handling the core.

That is dependent on a lot though. When do they notice it? Maybe they just issued dig commands and shifted focus to other things instead of staring at the dig site. Maybe they don't know about the trick where they can predict what a geyser will be with build commands before digging it. Did they block it off with a material that wont melt?

I personally don't think they are a problem, but I also didn't really think cool steam vents were a problem and people complained a lot. Also you and I have played the game enough that solving a volcano is just basic knowledge but it's not the same for everyone. Having it pushed as a possibility for the oil planetoid puts it a little bit later into the game where they will probably know enough to handle it. I could see adding minor volcanos back into the list of the curated rng geysers at the lower barren biome but having it as a dedicated space for 3 of them seems bad. Also I would probably make the ones in the core large volcanos then. 

Also the list of geysers I put down there are mostly heat focused and they can also generate energy so I'm not really getting the point of why it matters if there are guaranteed volcanos in the barrern biome or not.

[ZombieDupe]

Pretty much agree with all of this (seems to have stemmed from my geyser-to-biome suggestion) except with the idea of keeping Jungle and Marsh biomes as secondary biomes in Terra, but you already know that. Would much prefer if the DLC's Aridio planetoids had those as secondary biomes with Rust and Swamp biomes replacing them on Terra. In fact the Wasteland biome could be part of Aridio as well with the Forest biome replacing that on the starting Terra planetoid.

When talking about coming back to an easier difficulty, you bring a good point of discussion, but I don't agree with the train of thought you take from that. Experienced players could come back to test out new changes in a relaxed environment or to simply have a much more relaxing game if that's what you wanted and reflect on what they have learnt. I know that's what I would use Terra for if that were the case, we could all use chill gameplay from time to time and with that sort of biome layout Terra can be just that. Seeing your friends who are new to the game try it out for the first time in what might be a little challenging for them as they learn the ropes, but easy difficulty for you could prove fun as well.

[crbd115]

9 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

In fact the Wasteland biome could be part of Aridio as well with the Forest biome replacing that on the starting Terra planetoid.

With the way the dlc is designed I don't think they plan on having any starts without the wasteland biome. They could but I don't know that they will as its the only place to get sugar right now and they want players to have that rocket option.

9 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Experienced players could come back to test out new changes in a relaxed environment or to simply have a much more relaxing game if that's what you wanted and reflect on what they have learnt. I know that's what I would use Terra for if that were the case, we could all use chill gameplay from time to time and with that sort of biome layout Terra can be just that.

Experienced players already do this and already think of the base game terra to be this. 

[ZombieDupe]

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

With the way the dlc is designed I don't think they plan on having any starts without the wasteland biome. They could but I don't know that they will as its the only place to get sugar right now and they want players to have that rocket option.

Can just move the appearance of this biome to the second planetoid. I mean the biome doesn't really teach you much essentials that will be imminently important in your first run, it's more about higher temperatures and plants that can withstand those higher temperatures. This way you are required to at least investigate that other planetoid if you want to get sugar engines going and it you don't do that the carbon engine would be your way of launching rockets. If one of the slush geysers in the cold biome was replaced with the cold CO2 geyser that could work out nicely if the player just ends up somehow skimming all their CO2 on the map instead of letting it pile up.

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Experienced players already do this and already think of the base game terra to be this. 

I'm an experienced player and as it stands, no thank you, I would rather play Rime or Swamp start for a relaxed game because cold is almost a non-issue while hot temperatures and undeletable gases are much more tedious (Jungle and Rust will give you chlorine to your colony without any type of seal, pumping and filtering chlorine is more annoying than installing some salt vines to eat up the chlorine). Most of Terra's layout I would expect to find in something like Aridio, which I would gladly take on as a challenge, even harder than Terra is right now (no cold biomes), but I would not have a relaxed time growing mealwood and bristle blossoms on Terra for instance, it's just a ticking clock with the first few surrounding biomes.

[crbd115]

12 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Can just move the appearance of this biome to the second planetoid. I mean the biome doesn't really teach you much essentials that will be imminently important in your first run,

The main point was its sugar for sugar engines if the player doesn't like the co2 engine for some reason. It is designed as a secondary option. Moving it to the secondary planetoids is pushing a early game engine later into the game where you just move onto petroleum instead.

16 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I'm an experienced player and as it stands, no thank you,

Good for you. I'm an experienced player with the opposite opinion so what is the point of this statement? 

21 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I would rather play Rime or Swamp start for a relaxed game because cold is almost a non-issue while hot temperatures and undeletable gases are much more tedious

Rime is not a relaxed start at all. You have to worry about finding enough seeds, there aren't many critters, most of your plants struggle to stay warm enough to grow, and you have to worry about water in your pipes freezing. Yes it is easier to generate heat with the buildings in the game then generate cold but the sheer mass of the world being as cold as it is usually outweighs the heat you can produce in the early game.
The only issue I have with rime's design though is that they kept the hot geysers in rather then replacing them with cold versions. If you have endless sources of heat in a cold planetoid that defeats the purpose. Geysers should be used to supplement the challenge of the planets design. If you have a hot planetoid then hot geysers, cold planetoid then cold geysers. They need to add more cold variants of geysers  to have as an option for these types of design as well.
 

[ZombieDupe]

On 7/6/2021 at 10:42 PM, crbd115 said:

The main point was its sugar for sugar engines if the player doesn't like the co2 engine for some reason. It is designed as a secondary option. Moving it to the secondary planetoids is pushing a early game engine later into the game where you just move onto petroleum instead.

Not really, it gives more opportunities to try out each engine. For the Terra start, since that's where you are expected to start as a new player, CO2 engine before you teleport to the second planetoid, sugar engine before you tap into oil biome. Not all these routes will be taken, but it's more nuanced than slapping two engine options right out the gate. Gives more incentive to explore more with multiple things in a given area. I won't dwell on this much though it's simply a proposition that would work better in my opinion not only because of the engine dynamic but also because that could prove a more sensible way of introducing warmer temperatures nearby to the player.

On 7/6/2021 at 10:42 PM, crbd115 said:

Good for you. I'm an experienced player with the opposite opinion so what is the point of this statement? 

Point is that the idea of it being the most relaxed planetoid is false, especially compared to a few other ones. I have seen gameplay footage and heard the experience from multiple new players, and my own frustrations with the hotter surrounding temperatures of Terra being as hot as they are makes it very undesirable to play with the mindset of starting out or to relax. Not entirely sure what gravitates you to have some of these extra challenges and resource variations presented immediately to the player when they are learning the basics. Maybe you just like and can tolerate warmer temperatures more than cold for some reason, I certainly do not.

On 7/6/2021 at 10:42 PM, crbd115 said:

Rime is not a relaxed start at all. You have to worry about finding enough seeds, there aren't many critters, most of your plants struggle to stay warm enough to grow, and you have to worry about water in your pipes freezing. Yes it is easier to generate heat with the buildings in the game then generate cold but the sheer mass of the world being as cold as it is usually outweighs the heat you can produce in the early game.
The only issue I have with rime's design though is that they kept the hot geysers in rather then replacing them with cold versions. If you have endless sources of heat in a cold planetoid that defeats the purpose. Geysers should be used to supplement the challenge of the planets design. If you have a hot planetoid then hot geysers, cold planetoid then cold geysers. They need to add more cold variants of geysers  to have as an option for these types of design as well.

Well again that is simply not true at all. My own experience and seeing some other gameplay of this showed it is in fact much easier to expand, collect and use resources and progress further even without reading guides on it. Early game is a little harder but past that point it's incredibly easy and you don't have to be an experienced player to recognise that on your own. All you have to do is insulate the area, you do that in base game Terra and many other planetoid types anyway especially if you want to continue growing early crop types for a while longer. I don't know why but you seem to be trying to desperately make cold for Rime specifically feel like a bigger threat than it actually is at least with the temperatures you're given to work with. Cold is a heat dump that buys you lots more time, that's why it works so well in letting you explore further parts of the game.

[crbd115]

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Point is that the idea of it being the most relaxed planetoid is false, especially compared to a few other ones. I have seen gameplay footage and heard the experience from multiple new players, and my own frustrations with the hotter surrounding temperatures of Terra being as hot as they are makes it very undesirable to play with the mindset of starting out or to relax.

The problem is this is literally just an opinion with your experiences and your comparing as well with unexperienced players. They are going to find any part of the game hard. The game is meant to be challenging and meant to be a learning experience. That is the novelty and main point of the game, and once you have learned how to beat everything there is to beat there's not much a reason to keep going. Just because you have seen or heard some people say the same as you you think there is not people saying the opposite? I have seen others say they prefer the sandstone start continually in the forums and on gameplay footage on youtube as well. 

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Not really, it gives more opportunities to try out each engine. For the Terra start, since that's where you are expected to start as a new player, CO2 engine before you teleport to the second planetoid, sugar engine before you tap into oil biome. Not all these routes will be taken, but it's more nuanced than slapping two engine options right out the gate. Gives more incentive to explore more with multiple things in a given area. I won't dwell on this much though it's simply a proposition that would work better in my opinion not only because of the engine dynamic but also because that could prove a more sensible way of introducing warmer temperatures nearby to the player.

The problem with that is most people find the teleporter and use it long before they even get to rocketry which is why I have never liked the teleporters in the first place. The sugar and co2 rocket only really are useful for the trips to the radiation planetoid and then you just move into petrol because you need the extra range and module height. Giving the player a choice is only a choice if its given to them before petrol. 
Also seems counterintuitive to say you want the game to be easier then talk about moving the easiest biome to explore early to other planetoids.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Early game is a little harder but past that point it's incredibly easy and you don't have to be an experienced player to recognise that on your own. All you have to do is insulate the area, you do that in base game Terra and many other planetoid types anyway especially if you want to continue growing early crop types for a while longer.

Cold is a heat dump that buys you lots more time, that's why it works so well in letting you explore further parts of the game.

"Early game is harder" is literally the point. You claim its easier as a whole when the entire point of these challenge maps is the early game and if you can overcome the maps given challenge. Once you get past that point your out of the early game and stabalize and the map is conquered in a matter of time. If you want the easiest starting map to do that that is terra. "All you have to do is insulate the area." congrats that is literally the answer to every challenge map so far when dealing with heat or cold. The same goes for terra which is why most people take the temperate, start and insulate it to ignore the heat. You have an easier early game that is solved the same way as the harder start. As a result that makes terra easier by your own argument. 

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Well again that is simply not true at all. My own experience and seeing some other gameplay of this showed it is in fact much easier to expand, collect and use resources and progress further even without reading guides on it.

Again treating your opinion as fact. If this is how your going to respond to everything there really is no point in discussing with you.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I don't know why but you seem to be trying to desperately make cold for Rime specifically feel like a bigger threat than it actually is at least with the temperatures you're given to work with. Cold is a heat dump that buys you lots more time, that's why it works so well in letting you explore further parts of the game.

I'm not trying desperately for anything in this discussion. It has literally been you going "that's not my opinion." and then when I give a counter argument your counter is always "that's not my opinion." and then any examples you give has been entirely all over the place with points that are sometimes even counter to your own argument making no sense. At this rate I'm not seeing the point to discussing with you if this is always how your going to be. Your basically just giving out "In my opinion" and "some people I have talked to or seen" as if its evidence. I have talked to many people on here and seen many videos constantly saying the exact opposite to you and literally the only time I have said that was in response to your "some people I have talked to or seen". It's not evidence. It's not an example or an argument. It is a given that your experience will have been different that's why you have a different opinion in the first place. Saying people I have seen or talked to isn't an argument either as obviously we have both talked to other people and obviously our opinions are shaped by that.

[ZombieDupe]

18 hours ago, crbd115 said:

The problem is this is literally just an opinion with your experiences and your comparing as well with unexperienced players. They are going to find any part of the game hard. The game is meant to be challenging and meant to be a learning experience. That is the novelty and main point of the game, and once you have learned how to beat everything there is to beat there's not much a reason to keep going. Just because you have seen or heard some people say the same as you you think there is not people saying the opposite?

Inexperienced players' experience is precisely what you should design a game around. If a player has trouble understanding something and the same or similar wall (or at least perceived one) appears that prevents the player from being able to progress in the game and there is a very clear correlation with many other new players, you have a very clear problem. Solutions can go many different ways, but the problem cannot stay unaddressed. My opinion has merit in that even if I'm not always presenting specific cases (in part I simply don't want to go on a tangent, many new "blind" playthroughs and some outside forum posts will reinforce my points in one way or another), I don't just come up with a random idea out of nowhere and stick to that needing to be part of the game, that doesn't make sense. As much as you may refuse to believe that, heat is the biggest problem and not one for a new player to solve because of how other essential systems work to exacerbate it. You will not learn unless you are provided reasonable and understandable options. Setting up warm and hot biomes right next to you on most players' first try of the game have and will continue to scare off many more players when this could be easily avoided by changing the biomes.

18 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Just because you have seen or heard some people say the same as you you think there is not people saying the opposite? I have seen others say they prefer the sandstone start continually in the forums and on gameplay footage on youtube as well.

I have seen many in fact but I have yet to see an opposing viewpoint presenting reasons that would trump that.

18 hours ago, crbd115 said:

The problem with that is most people find the teleporter and use it long before they even get to rocketry which is why I have never liked the teleporters in the first place. The sugar and co2 rocket only really are useful for the trips to the radiation planetoid and then you just move into petrol because you need the extra range and module height. Giving the player a choice is only a choice if its given to them before petrol. 
Also seems counterintuitive to say you want the game to be easier then talk about moving the easiest biome to explore early to other planetoids.

The purpose of putting sugar engine availability past the teleporter would be to incentivise using the teleporters and expand players' reach. I believe you should require radbolts to recharge the teleporters in the first place because otherwise it's just shallow setup with no depth to problem solving, just wait till they recharge to use them again instead of figuring out radiation to take a better look at the other planetoid the next time... Anyway...

You might rush petrol generators instead of using the sugar ones if you had this as the option. First and foremost petrol engines require tons of research points for higher tier research machines. Secondly I wouldn't expect new players to do that first time they get to colonise the second planetoid if there's oil there since the biome is a harder. Just because an option might be available doesn't mean the player will take it because they won't make the connection. I would probably take use of sugar engines on the second planetoid myself well before digging into the oil biome. It's clean to just stuff solids and there is no real mess in getting or generating some sugar earlier on in comparison to petroleum. There is also the steam generator before that, which a cool steam vent can come in handy to use for. At the end of the day you can rush petroleum engines but there is no and would still be no need to, and that's a good thing.

18 hours ago, crbd115 said:

"Early game is harder" is literally the point. You claim its easier as a whole when the entire point of these challenge maps is the early game and if you can overcome the maps given challenge. Once you get past that point your out of the early game and stabalize and the map is conquered in a matter of time. If you want the easiest starting map to do that that is terra. "All you have to do is insulate the area." congrats that is literally the answer to every challenge map so far when dealing with heat or cold. The same goes for terra which is why most people take the temperate, start and insulate it to ignore the heat. You have an easier early game that is solved the same way as the harder start. As a result that makes terra easier by your own argument. 

Having to insulate your colony shows how shallow the early gameplay can really be, but that's a whole different topic. Terra is not as easy as it should be and the reason it should be even easier is because you should not make the player deal with heat. Instead make them learn just the fundamentals like setting up a toiletry system, decontaminate water (or at least dump germy water out of the system to be decontaminated later), set up beds, set up basic food sources, do research, learn about wiring their power grid. All of these systems are something that you must know and understand to some capacity early on no matter what. Heat systems really aren't and don't have to be. Yes things generate heat but the biggest heat problem comes from it seeping in or taking materials from dug out hotter biomes. Heat then overwhelms everything disproportionally and it goes from being a reasonable challenge to an insurmountable problem to stress over without a reasonably available solution. For me it's just boring and frustrating personally unless it's presented as an explicit challenge, like again, being the core theme of Aridio or some other planetoids because of how hard it is to work with without some meta solution. Slime and Jungle biomes are comparatively difficult to many other biomes to dig in and come out unscathed and unaffecting your colony or simply just them being nearby, they are perceived even more difficult than they actually are and the very fact that there is disconnect between perceived danger to what the actual danger end up is just as bad. That's why I think they should be as dangerous as they are perceived to be and not be an almost immediate issue/perceived issue on Terra.

A better next problem to present to a new player after basic colony infrastructure could be just more basic pollution like in the Swamp biome without such deadly-looking germs as slimelung in Marsh, and just some chlorine to deal with with plus experiencing colder temperatures like in the Rust biome rather than hotter temperatures like in Jungle biome that will kill your crops. Marsh and Jungle teach nothing valuable if you present them this early on if the player attempts to just avoid them entirely out of fear, having players hit the mid-game wall as some might call it. The alternative and less danger costly biomes could stop this level of fear from taking effect and stopping progression for players.

18 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Again treating your opinion as fact. If this is how your going to respond to everything there really is no point in discussing with you.

There is less merit to draw from when explicit evidence is not shown, that is fair, but it doesn't make my entire arguments instantly invalid. Do you have reason to believe that heat doesn't provide too much problems for new players? Why is that? All I ever hear is that heat is THE biggest problem for players going in blind, so if you disagree with that, tell me reasoning behind what you have seen. Design flaws should be identified and the heat problem is one such problem with the game at least in balance. I believe Rime overall being easier to be a fact due to my own experience, considering the heat problem and how far I have seen players progress when playing base game Terra vs then switching to Rime and the progress they experience through that. I have yet to see any example of this not being the case bar some engineers who think outside the box way more than anyone because they have knowledge of some systems that most other people will not. In general Rime has just been a much more pleasant experience. It is backwards, I think cold should be a bigger threat and Terra should be easier, but that is just how it is right now.

18 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I'm not trying desperately for anything in this discussion. It has literally been you going "that's not my opinion." and then when I give a counter argument your counter is always "that's not my opinion." and then any examples you give has been entirely all over the place with points that are sometimes even counter to your own argument making no sense. At this rate I'm not seeing the point to discussing with you if this is always how your going to be. Your basically just giving out "In my opinion" and "some people I have talked to or seen" as if its evidence. I have talked to many people on here and seen many videos constantly saying the exact opposite to you and literally the only time I have said that was in response to your "some people I have talked to or seen". It's not evidence. It's not an example or an argument. It is a given that your experience will have been different that's why you have a different opinion in the first place. Saying people I have seen or talked to isn't an argument either as obviously we have both talked to other people and obviously our opinions are shaped by that.

In the previous post my arguments are a little all over the place so I will give you that. But my points are not just shallow "that's not my opinion", I am giving you solid reasons for them. If you want explicit evidence, would you have evidence to disprove the claim? I suppose the burden of proof lies on me first and foremost, but do you want me to go on an even longer tangent giving examples? I think it might go way too off-topic to show explicit examples and my in-depth reasoning behind them specifically, not to mention the time to gather all the evidence I have found before. Just check out some blind playthroughs, even from some more popular lets-players (who are not experienced players with ONI as one of their main forms of content) of the game. You will see the correlation... or you will get irritated from them not understanding meta solutions to the game, that's also a possibility.

To me it seems you are clinging onto these biomes or leaving the difficulty of heat on Terra at this level at the very least because you have heavily argued in favour of that. If you didn't, me arguing against this idea would have been met with "yeah sure, whatever" but that is clearly not the case.

Also if you have reasons to believe these biomes would be fine and are in fact the easiest option to have or whatever, is there anything from other player experience that has suggested that these 2 or 3 biomes are good to have on Terra right nearby? I really would just want more reasoning not piles of evidence. I know you mentioned this.

18 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I have seen others say they prefer the sandstone start continually in the forums and on gameplay footage on youtube as well. 

But what is the reasoning behind this? I'm thinking maybe the players you saw this posted from did not try out Rime and Terra was the easiest they had experienced and that's why their arguments leaned towards that? I am just speculating I don't know for sure, so some clarification would be great.

... Also wanted to point out something about this point from earlier.

On 7/6/2021 at 10:42 PM, crbd115 said:

The only issue I have with rime's design though is that they kept the hot geysers in rather then replacing them with cold versions. If you have endless sources of heat in a cold planetoid that defeats the purpose. Geysers should be used to supplement the challenge of the planets design. If you have a hot planetoid then hot geysers, cold planetoid then cold geysers. They need to add more cold variants of geysers  to have as an option for these types of design as well.

I totally agree, but ultimately mostly cold geysers would make it much easier in the long term too as in place of a sealed/semi-sealed AQ/ST setup you would just put a tepidiser or a few in each and roughly insulate some geysers. Unless some of their output is extremely cold with high heat capacity and/or mass (like the concepts of liquid methane geyser or liquid oxygen geyser). But really we need frostbite cold damage as a mechanic that would put much more challenge in Rime. 

[crbd115]

19 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

But what is the reasoning behind this? I'm thinking maybe the players you saw this posted from did not try out Rime and Terra was the easiest they had experienced and that's why their arguments leaned towards that? I am just speculating I don't know for sure, so some clarification would be great.

Why would I have said they liked it better then rime if they hadn't played rime. I'm done wasting time discussing with you as you clearly aren't capable of having a rational discussion. I have already given examples and reasoning behind other points I'm not spending more time retyping them. You are free to have your opinion but your discussion methods are a waste of time.

[babba]

I find the game input and game feedback of both most active thread participants really good, except the lines where your are both personally picking at each other.

Perhaps you both can be friends or at least make a peace treaty... I will bake a nice choco cake and gladly give the biggest cake chunks to both of you 

The chunk with the thickest choco crust is for me though