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Changes to streamline duplicant selection


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I haven't played vanilla for a while until the early access but playing it made me remember just how much I don't enjoy rerolling starting dupes and it feels even more annoying with all the new traits. Don't get me wrong I love the new traits (for the most part) and have been wanting more variation for duplicants for a while. I just think printing and initial duplicant selection could be streamlined a little with a few simple changes. I'm posting this here because it applies to vanilla and ea.

Since we have exclusive negative traits where a duplicant can't have an interest and have a clashing negative trait (for example can't have building interest with unconstructive negative trait). Can we do something similar for positive traits? My suggestion is basically have a pool of generic positive traits, and then when a duplicant has an interest add the associated positive trait to the pool that it pulls from. For example a duplicant with digging interest is the only way for it to get the mole hands trait. This removes some of the headache of having traits pop up on duplicants that are just useless.

In my opinion you never want a duplicant that has just decoration or just doctoring as an interest. Would it be possible for these two traits to not be able to pop up as solo interests? Maybe make it so they aren't in the pool of interests unless the duplicant has two or more interests. Maybe even make them mutually exclusive as well, so they can't be together so you don't have a duplicant not working on its interests for 90% of the game.

This might be an unpopular opinion but I honestly do not like the suit wearing interest. I feel like it doesn't make sense to exist other than maybe the devs wanted a way for a duplicant to have a bonus to athletics outside of the twinkle toes trait. To the best of my knowledge there also aren't any chores that use this interest right? I would honestly say maybe remove it from the possible interests.

I think with the increase in variety of trait and interest combinations in ea maybe the printing screen should have 6 options; 2 care package, and 4 duplicants. I think this would give a better likely hood of printing a duplicant you actually want and the screen has the space for it.

With regards to interests and attribute points I think this makes more sense for duplicant generation

1 interest: +6
2 interest: +3 to each
3 interest: +2 to each

This way the point allocation is the same regardless of how many interests they have.

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It's all just a design choice on their part. They want you to accept less than perfect dupes and that no two games will have all the same dupes. If you want perfect dupes every time, use mods to get what you want.

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1 hour ago, Nxf7 said:

It's all just a design choice on their part. They want you to accept less than perfect dupes and that no two games will have all the same dupes. If you want perfect dupes every time, use mods to get what you want.

First of all this has nothing to do with getting "perfect" duplicants, its about fixing an irritating system that more people then just me have complained about in the past. People shouldn't have to spend a giant chunk of time at the start rerolling into something they want whether that be a combination of interests or traits or both. Second of all I can't use mods on the early access and probably wont be able to when it goes public next week either. Your statement is in no way what so ever constructive.

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4 hours ago, crbd115 said:

First of all this has nothing to do with getting "perfect" duplicants, its about fixing an irritating system that more people then just me have complained about in the past. People shouldn't have to spend a giant chunk of time at the start rerolling into something they want whether that be a combination of interests or traits or both. Second of all I can't use mods on the early access and probably wont be able to when it goes public next week either. Your statement is in no way what so ever constructive.

The system is indeed irritating to you and others, but is also by design from Klei. Another way of putting it, the design is to make it frustrating to pick ideal/preferred (better than perfect?) dupes. You can reroll indefinitely and get the dupes you want, but most likely will itch to play and opt for dupes possessing skills/traits/negs you didn't intend on when starting. This helps create another branch of uniqueness to each playthrough thus improving replay-ability to those the design style appeals to. There is an inherent increase in difficulty should you opt for less than ideal dupes as well. It would be simple to make any number of more intuitive dupe selection systems, but in my opinion (understanding not yours or others) the current system is great and does exactly what its supposed to. And as mentioned, mods solve this issue for when they become compatible with early access - which I see no reason won't be near immediate for most mods; dupe generator included as where it pulls info from and the core of dupe mechanics hasn't changed (could be wrong though). A built in option to have as is or a more 'choose-your-dupe' style would be nice.

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11 hours ago, TripLykely said:

The system is indeed irritating to you and others, but is also by design from Klei. Another way of putting it, the design is to make it frustrating to pick ideal/preferred (better than perfect?) dupes. You can reroll indefinitely and get the dupes you want, but most likely will itch to play and opt for dupes possessing skills/traits/negs you didn't intend on when starting. This helps create another branch of uniqueness to each playthrough thus improving replay-ability to those the design style appeals to. There is an inherent increase in difficulty should you opt for less than ideal dupes as well. It would be simple to make any number of more intuitive dupe selection systems, but in my opinion (understanding not yours or others) the current system is great and does exactly what its supposed to. And as mentioned, mods solve this issue for when they become compatible with early access - which I see no reason won't be near immediate for most mods; dupe generator included as where it pulls info from and the core of dupe mechanics hasn't changed (could be wrong though). A built in option to have as is or a more 'choose-your-dupe' style would be nice.

Ok you guys keep treating this like I'm talking about getting perfect and the same dupes every time. I'm not. For starting dupes for example, say I want a digging/building duplicant, all I want is for him to not have random unusable positive traits like green thumb, caring increase, or ranching increase, so i have to reroll and reroll, for something that simple. For printing its become I get duplicants with just doctoring, or just decortating as their only interest very often. So those are basically worthless. I don't want it to make the game perfect and the negative traits are supposed to be what makes the game unique and overcoming those. Getting dupes with worthless positive traits isn't unique gameplay because its not gameplay at all because you literally ignore it and nothing happens as a result. I have played about 1300 hours of oni, I know how to consistently deal with every negative trait in the game and all that "uniqueness". 

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19 hours ago, crbd115 said:

For example a duplicant with digging interest is the only way for it to get the mole hands trait. This removes some of the headache of having traits pop up on duplicants that are just useless.

In my opinion you never want a duplicant that has just decoration or just doctoring as an interest. Would it be possible for these two traits to not be able to pop up as solo interests? Maybe make it so they aren't in the pool of interests unless the duplicant has two or more interests. Maybe even make them mutually exclusive as well, so they can't be together so you don't have a duplicant not working on its interests for 90% of the game.

This might be an unpopular opinion but I honestly do not like the suit wearing interest. I feel like it doesn't make sense to exist other than maybe the devs wanted a way for a duplicant to have a bonus to athletics outside of the twinkle toes trait. To the best of my knowledge there also aren't any chores that use this interest right? I would honestly say maybe remove it from the possible interests.

I think with the increase in variety of trait and interest combinations in ea maybe the printing screen should have 6 options; 2 care package, and 4 duplicants. I think this would give a better likely hood of printing a duplicant you actually want and the screen has the space for it.

With regards to interests and attribute points I think this makes more sense for duplicant generation

1 interest: +6
2 interest: +3 to each
3 interest: +2 to each

This way the point allocation is the same regardless of how many interests they have.

What you lay out are dupe selection design changes, Klei has a different goal with ONI, that's ok. Getting mole hands on a dupe with no interest in digging poses a challenge/nuisance to overcome. Getting a dupe only interested in decorating or doctoring is the same. Suit wearing helps morale with dupes who become astronauts also. 

"better likely hood of printing a duplicant you actually want"

Klei designed ONI so it is a pain to roll the duplicant you want. It is intentional, not a mistake or poorly thought out system.

The system you lay out has merits, and I'm sure many people would like it - that's why mods exist. Klei had other ideas with their game, and honestly semi-random dupes better fits the meta, imo. 

8 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

Ok you guys keep treating this like I'm talking about getting perfect and the same dupes every time. I'm not. For starting dupes for example, say I want a digging/building duplicant, all I want is for him to not have random unusable positive traits like green thumb, caring increase, or ranching increase, so i have to reroll and reroll, for something that simple. For printing its become I get duplicants with just doctoring, or just decortating as their only interest very often. So those are basically worthless. I don't want it to make the game perfect and the negative traits are supposed to be what makes the game unique and overcoming those. Getting dupes with worthless positive traits isn't unique gameplay because its not gameplay at all because you literally ignore it and nothing happens as a result. I have played about 1300 hours of oni, I know how to consistently deal with every negative trait in the game and all that "uniqueness". 

I find it ideal to start most maps with 2 diggers and 1 researcher, ideally both diggers with mole hands and they must have max digging. Researcher quick learner and max science. But it's more fun when I just play a new map with the first 3 dupes presented. You're downplaying the result of less than ideal dupes to start with given that you've came up with an alternate system to alleviate the problem you see. The dupes I prefer best fit my preferred playstyle; by using dupes that don't fit it forces me to adjust my playstyle for early game. Naturally dealing with certain issues becomes less and less of an issue as you progress, but your first 3 do matter - and getting mole hands on a cook might have merit for a mini base mod map hypothetically. Being able to deal with issues and embracing it are different. Since you've played that much may I suggest you're missing out on joys people who've played more have found? When the DLC drops or when you get it, try making your first colony with the first 3 dupes offered and go from there. There is a method to Klei's madness, and you not liking it may be because you haven't embraced it. 

 

19 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I haven't played vanilla for a while until the early access but playing it made me remember just how much I don't enjoy rerolling starting dupes and it feels even more annoying with all the new traits. Don't get me wrong I love the new traits (for the most part) and have been wanting more variation for duplicants for a while. I just think printing and initial duplicant selection could be streamlined a little with a few simple changes. I'm posting this here because it applies to vanilla and ea.

I look at this differently, the new traits - and being able to start with high level skills, presents so many interesting starting dupe strategies my brain has only begun pondering them. Replay to me gets stale when you find a playstyle that works well and starting dupes who fit it. Encouraging you not to do that by using the reroll system in place helps. Ultimately ONI is a pee simulator that kept advancing to what it is now. While there is a lot of talk about optimization and efficiency, let's not forget it began with cartoon characters peeing everywhere. You have to embrace the chaos a bit, order and control are overrated :)

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6 minutes ago, TripLykely said:

Klei designed ONI so it is a pain to roll the duplicant you want. It is intentional, not a mistake or poorly thought out system.

I'm not saying it is a mistake or a poorly thought out system, but at the same time everything can be improved. That is why they are constantly changing things, adding things, and removing or reworking older systems. People talk about changes and suggestions to improve the game all the time, what makes this any different? Literally all you've done so far is try to force this idea that you have that the devs want this or that, you talk like you know exactly what they want. You keep mentioning that getting these random positive tratis that don't do anything presents a challenge to overcome. How is there any challenge in that? With flatulent you have a challenge to overcome. With something like getting caring on a duplicant that isn't a doctor isn't a challenge its just ignored. 

Quote

Since you've played that much may I suggest you're missing out on joys people who've played more have found? When the DLC drops or when you get it, try making your first colony with the first 3 dupes offered and go from there. There is a method to Klei's madness, and you not liking it may be because you haven't embraced i

I have already done this many times and it literally adds up to wasting a ton of time and doesn't actually change any of the gameplay whatsoever. Getting duplicants that have random traits or interests doesn't change the basic gameplay of building your base in any way. Just how long it takes to go about doing it. You still have to dig out the majority of your base even if you don't have a digger duplicant. You still have to build buildings without a builder.

Please stop assuming that you know what the devs/klei want. I'm not going to assume anything about what they want or intend because that doesn't help or solve anything. In a forum about discussing new ideas I'm not going to assume a new idea isn't an idea because the devs didn't do it, therefore it must not be what they want. 

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I will just give them a counterpoint.  I wish the rolling system wasn't anywhere near as streamlined as it is now.  The harder it is to get good dupes the more likely I am to settle for substandard ones and the game is much more fun like that.  Same reason I don't use dupe mods in rimworld.  Flawed dupes make for a more fun game, even if the flaw is just not having a useful secondary trait.

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15 minutes ago, EnderCN said:

I will just give them a counterpoint.  I wish the rolling system wasn't anywhere near as streamlined as it is now.  The harder it is to get good dupes the more likely I am to settle for substandard ones and the game is much more fun like that.  Same reason I don't use dupe mods in rimworld.  Flawed dupes make for a more fun game, even if the flaw is just not having a useful secondary trait.

"Flawed" dupes do make the game more interesting but the only "flaws" that actually make the game interesting are the negative traits. I would be totally up for having duplicants having more negative traits at a time to make the game more interesting. What I am talking about is the positive traits more then half the time just don't do anything at all. I keep saying its not about rerolling for good dupes. I just want the positive traits to actually be just that, a positive trait. 
Like when a duplicant gets early bird, thats a positve trait no matter what combination of traits or interests and you set up their schedule so that you can use it. If a duplicant gets caring and isnt a doctor, that's not substandard or more interesting its just ignored content.

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1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

I'm not saying it is a mistake or a poorly thought out system, but at the same time everything can be improved. That is why they are constantly changing things, adding things, and removing or reworking older systems. People talk about changes and suggestions to improve the game all the time, what makes this any different?

Everything can be improved, but sometimes we think something needs improvement when we simply misunderstand its intention. What makes this different than other suggestions, say how the DLC will display area when making dig commands, is that the dupe selection system is a core part of how the game functions as well as it's meta. 

 

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

Literally all you've done so far is try to force this idea that you have that the devs want this or that, you talk like you know exactly what they want. You keep mentioning that getting these random positive tratis that don't do anything presents a challenge to overcome. How is there any challenge in that? With flatulent you have a challenge to overcome. With something like getting caring on a duplicant that isn't a doctor isn't a challenge its just ignored.

 

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

I have already done this many times and it literally adds up to wasting a ton of time and doesn't actually change any of the gameplay whatsoever. Getting duplicants that have random traits or interests doesn't change the basic gameplay of building your base in any way. Just how long it takes to go about doing it. You still have to dig out the majority of your base even if you don't have a digger duplicant. You still have to build buildings without a builder.

You answered it yourself, and again I think you're downplaying things - especially if you play higher/max difficulty. Time. Yes, you need to do the same things early game, how quickly you can do them matters. Ultimately you can build the same base, but it helps in creating a bigger initial early game hump to overcome. Small obstacles accumulate to present a bigger overall challenge with nuance.

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

Please stop assuming that you know what the devs/klei want. I'm not going to assume anything about what they want or intend because that doesn't help or solve anything. In a forum about discussing new ideas I'm not going to assume a new idea isn't an idea because the devs didn't do it, therefore it must not be what they want. 

My assumptions aren't pulled from thin air, although I certainly don't work at Klei. The game has existed for quite some time, many changes have been made, when looking at the changes made and the changes not made - regardless of community feedback - you can make assumptions as to Klei's thinking. I don't claim to be perfect, but making a general assumption that the dupe reroll selection system is by design and working as intended not needing improvements from Klei's perspective seems fair. If anything, the new DLC furthers my assumption as they've only made it harder to roll the dupes you want while creating even more small obstacles/early gameplay variance. It's why you made this post. And nobody said not to discuss anything, in fact I'm engaging because I want to discuss it.  

 

13 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

"Flawed" dupes do make the game more interesting but the only "flaws" that actually make the game interesting are the negative traits. I would be totally up for having duplicants having more negative traits at a time to make the game more interesting. What I am talking about is the positive traits more then half the time just don't do anything at all. I keep saying its not about rerolling for good dupes. I just want the positive traits to actually be just that, a positive trait. 
Like when a duplicant gets early bird, thats a positve trait no matter what combination of traits or interests and you set up their schedule so that you can use it. If a duplicant gets caring and isnt a doctor, that's not substandard or more interesting its just ignored content.

A positive trait that doesn't do anything is a neutral trait, I guess I'm simply missing the problem you have. Some traits help, some hurt, some do something but it isn't specifically useful, some can be ignored, others can't. 

There are so many styles of play, I assure you that you haven't thought of every 'job' a dupe can have, and I'm stoked the DLC adds to it. I do think adding some kind of option with a system like you layout or mods would be nice in the vanilla game.

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