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Water/Steam transfers vertically through solid tile?


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I've set up an aquatuner/steam turbine for cooling my base. I run a 1-tile high pocket och polluted water underneath to cool a hydrogen lool for the turbines. 

Even if this is at 1000kg/tile pressure pockets of 5kg water appears after running it a while. If i let it run long enough more pockets of water appear, eventually breaking the tiles to the aquatuner room. 

There is no water in the near vicinity of the setup so my only guess is that the steam is the culprit but how to prevent it?

If something else is causing it, I'm thankful for help because it's getting tedious rebuilding it. 

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I'm guessing this is a result of what I call the "sweating" mechanic. Other people probably have different names for it. This occurs when a solid/liquid is in contact with a tile that is higher temperature than the melting/boiling point of the solid/liquid. What happens is that a small portion (the 5 kg) of the solid/liquid instantly melts/boils. Presumably this is to model a huge chunk of ice (or anything else) melting gradually rather than all at once.

The problem is that this mechanic ignores conductivity. Most commonly seen in the oil biome when super hot abyssalite (from the magma biome) cooks oil into petroleum or sour gas. With abyssalite's very low conductivity this should never happen, but it does. It's a bug or very stupid design decision that has been around forever.

So what I think's happening is that 5 kg of polluted water is being semi-randomly boiled into steam because it's in contact with the insulated tiles between the water and the steam chambers. Check the temperature of that one tile above the clean water with the debris on it, I would venture it's above 120C. A result of another longstanding bug, insulated tiles don't act insulated with regard to debris on them. The steam is then cooled by the cold polluted water and condenses into the 5 kg of water you are seeing.

For a solution, swap the polluted water with solid metal tiles. Or use crude oil instead of polluted water. Or separate the polluted water chamber from the steam chamber such that the polluted water no longer touches a hot wall.

Please do report back if I'm correct on the problem.

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7 minutes ago, wachunga said:

I'm guessing this is a result of what I call the "sweating" mechanic. Other people probably have different names for it. This occurs when a solid/liquid is in contact with a tile that is higher temperature than the melting/boiling point of the solid/liquid. What happens is that a small portion (the 5 kg) of the solid/liquid instantly melts/boils. Presumably this is to model a huge chunk of ice (or anything else) melting gradually rather than all at once.

The problem is that this mechanic ignores conductivity. Most commonly seen in the oil biome when super hot abyssalite (from the magma biome) cooks oil into petroleum or sour gas. With abyssalite's very low conductivity this should never happen, but it does. It's a bug or very stupid design decision that has been around forever.

So what I think is happening is that 5 kg of polluted water is being semi-randomly boiled into steam because it's in contact with the insulated tiles between the water and the steam chambers. Check the temperature of those tiles, I would venture they are above 120C. The steam is then cooled by the cold polluted water and condenses into the 5 kg of water you are seeing.

For a solution, swap the polluted water with solid metal tiles. Or use crude oil instead of polluted water. Or separate the polluted water chamber from the steam chamber such that the polluted water no longer touches a hot wall.

Please do report back if that solves it. I'm curious if I'm correct on the problem.

You, sir, are correct. All the Insulated tiles keep within 20-30C except the one above the water. It instead boasts a massive 150C. It never even occured to me considering I've had this setup before withouth any issues.

There's a 399kg chunk of Igneous Rock sitting on the tile, could it have something to do with it? Also, I don't know where it came from since I was careful not to leave anything in there that could interfere (last thing i did before closing it up was a sweep order to make sure it was clean, nothing showed). 

I'll go for metal tiles for now since I don't want to risk it breaking again before I can get the piping for oil/petroleum done.

Thanks for the help! 

 

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3 minutes ago, peq said:

There's a 399kg chunk of Igneous Rock sitting on the tile, could it have something to do with it?

Yes, I edited my post after you read it to explain that issue. It's another bug where debris sitting on insulated tiles behave as if the tile is un-insulated. So the debris is forming a heat pathway that ignores the insulated property of the tile. The oil in the steam chamber heats the debris which heats the insulated tile which boils the water.

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17 minutes ago, peq said:

You, sir, are correct. All the Insulated tiles keep within 20-30C except the one above the water. It instead boasts a massive 150C. It never even occured to me considering I've had this setup before withouth any issues.

There's a 399kg chunk of Igneous Rock sitting on the tile, could it have something to do with it? Also, I don't know where it came from since I was careful not to leave anything in there that could interfere (last thing i did before closing it up was a sweep order to make sure it was clean, nothing showed). 

I'll go for metal tiles for now since I don't want to risk it breaking again before I can get the piping for oil/petroleum done.

Thanks for the help! 

 

This post may explain where that chip came from. It may have flaked off of your insulated tile, and caused this whole mess. I'm not completely sure of that myself, but your description of ensuring that there was no debris in there and you don't know where it came from reminded me of this effect.

If this is indeed related, I'm not sure how it's happening as I don't fully understand the original problem myself. It seems to be related to small portions of a solid tile melting. I don't see how that could be happening though since your steam chamber isn't likely getting up to 1300C.

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11 minutes ago, Chthonicone said:

 

This post may explain where that chip came from. It may have flaked off of your insulated tile, and caused this whole mess. I'm not completely sure of that myself, but your description of ensuring that there was no debris in there and you don't know where it came from reminded me of this effect.

If this is indeed related, I'm not sure how it's happening as I don't fully understand the original problem myself. It seems to be related to small portions of a solid tile melting. I don't see how that could be happening though since your steam chamber isn't likely getting up to 1300C.

I looked through my autosaves, which I run at 5 cycle intervals. I'm starting to suspect an inside job as the room is clean as the work order for closing it up is placed. Then, 5 cycles later, the room is closed and the Igneous Rock is there. At this point the system is running but isn't hot. 

How it ends up there is a mystery but I have 16 suspicions running around.

 

 

47 minutes ago, wachunga said:

Yes, I edited my post after you read it to explain that issue. It's another bug where debris sitting on insulated tiles behave as if the tile is un-insulated. So the debris is forming a heat pathway that ignores the insulated property of the tile. The oil in the steam chamber heats the debris which heats the insulated tile which boils the water.

This was the culprit. I salute you for your help. Also good to know that debris negates insulation, can imagine it causing all sorts of problems. I'll now do a last sweep just before starting closed systems as well since they are annoying to fix.

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I have the same in my game. 15kg of water just magically appeared in my ice box :/ I don't have debris there though. I left a piece of ladder in it just to clear it out. 

The water tile is the one above the thermo sensor

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I don't actually reach freezing temperatures here so I guess I'm safe. The upper portion that's close to the steam vent below is the warmest. The deeper part on the left is colder.

I figured it might have something to do with in the insulating tiles becoming pretty hot. Except the diagonal tile in the lower right corner they are pretty cool though. 

EDIT: Apparently putting temp shift plates on the left side of the aquatuner wasn't such a good idea. I did have serious issues getting the steam chamber to run without them, but they shift their heat into the insulation.

My second aquatuner uses ceramics as insulation instead of igneous rock. Not sure if that will do anything

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There are many more topics on flashing, flaking, and sweating. let me know if you want a list of them. If I compiled it all into one topic, I could make assumptions that tie all of them together. I still need to do more tests on the different types of phase changes and collisions between mediums, but I've seen enough to generally know how it works.

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Turns out the issue in my case is the temp shift plates behind the aquatuner. I had issues getting the steam to boil without them, but they also transfer their heat into the insulation, which is just igneous rock.

It's probably a good idea to not indirectly connect the steam chamber with the icebox that way

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