Feedback on the Current Card Pool

[Hraklea]

Hi!

I'm making a list of feedbacks on the current cardpool of the game, given my experience playing in P7. I could be wrong about all this (I'm open for discussion, please be nice if I said something stupid), but I hope this is useful anyway.

I'll organize in a way that makes sense for me to think about the cards, so I apologize in advance if it is confusing.  

Enjoy the reading.

Disclaimer: when I talk about a card, unless stated otherwise, I share the same opinion about its upgrades.

BATTLE

•  I've said that in a few threads before, but one last time: Boulder Stance is way too powerful. Easily the best card in the game.
•  The Spree cards are too weak. I don't know if that's intended.

Bleed cards

• Pale Barnacle is a lot better than Savage Barnacle 99% of the times.
• Boosted Gash is a lot better than Thorny Gash 99% of the times.
• Boosted Hemophage is too strong.
• Vertical Slash is a lot better than Booster Slash 99% of the times.

Combo cards

• Overall, Combo is too weak compared to Bleed. Combo requires points and finishes; Bleed cards are good on their own. Combo damage is stopped by Defense; Bleed has piercing. Combo consume the points to become Defense (Breather, Shoulder Roll); Bleed can be turned into Defense and Health without losing stacks (Barnacle, Gash, Hemophage, Leech). The "33% Bleed decay" graft is stronger than the Combo graft.
• Rain of Blades is too weak.

Discard cards

• Duster is too weak.
• Booster Blade and Booster Seeker are too strong.

Counter cards

• Counter seems to be balanced. Althought Readiness might be a little too weak.

Power cards

• The synergy with Uppercut, Enrage, Target Practice, Blade Fury and Gut Shot seems balanced.

Max Damage cards

• The synergy with Ghost Strike, Improved Accuracy and Wild Lunge doesn't work very well. Ghost Strike is too weak.

NEGOTIATION

• Overall, Diplomacy is too weak compared to Hostility. Influence doesn't scale; Dominance does. Diplomacy cards are hurt by the "-1 damage" argument and the "-50% damage" graft; Hostility cards don't have a counterpart. Hostility cards get bonus damage in Intimidation tests; Diplomacy cards don't have a counterpart.
• Quick Thinking is too weak.
• Admiralty cards are too weak. I don't know if that's intended.

Hostility cards

• Below and Bluster are too weak before they upgrade.
• Stone Bulldozer is too strong.
• The Heat argument seems to be balanced. Might be too strong when paired with Elucidate.

Diplomacy

• Build Rapport, Calling in All Favor, Calm, Empathy, Good Impression, Ipso Facto and Magnetic Charm are too weak.
• Hard Facts is too weak before it upgrades.
• The Cool Head argument is too weak.

Maneuvers

• Brainstorm, Pure Style, Seeds of Doubt and White Lie are too weak.

[pacovf]

Agree with most of what you say. The only things I disagree with are:

• I think base Boulder stance is probably fine. The upgrade that gives 2 defense per card played is definitely too good though.
• Spree cards are mostly fine. Assault is very good, for example. Thirst is definitely weak, though.
• Vertical Slash comes from Sal's bloody daggers, Boosted slash comes from Improved Dirty fighting. It's not too bad if they aren't exactly equal in power because they serve different functions. Vertical Slash being better than Gouge, that is a problem though.
• Combo is being reworked in experimental. We will have to see how good it is now.
• As far as counter cards are concerned, Spined Rebound is crazy. Way better than everything else. Combat readiness is mostly about the card draw, it's fine there.
• Admiralty cards are wildly unequal. Very convincing is weak, Flash badge is very weak. But Bolster is crazy strong, and the one that deals damage based on your influence can be good.
• Build rapport and Magnetic charm are ok. Not super strong, but not all cards have to be. Good impression, on the other hand, is really good. It's a lot of upfront damage, both of the upgrades are great, and most negotiations won't last that long once you have your deck going.
• Calm used to be 3 composure before upgrade, 5 after. It was way better than the alternatives. Now it's 2 before upgrade, 3 after, which feels too weak. Kind of a hard card to balance.
• Brainstorm is fine. Pure style is a bit situational, but not bad per se. I don't have experience with doubt cards, so can't comment there.

[TheCoolestFool]

3 hours ago, Hraklea said:

NEGOTIATION

• Overall, Diplomacy is too weak compared to Hostility. Influence doesn't scale; Dominance does. Diplomacy cards are hurt by the "-1 damage" argument and the "-50% damage" graft; Hostility cards don't have a counterpart. Hostility cards get bonus damage in Intimidation tests; Diplomacy cards don't have a counterpart.
• Quick Thinking is too weak.
• Admiralty cards are too weak. I don't know if that's intended.

 

I played a lot of p7 to and i actually think diplomacy decks are on pare with hostility decks. Those few battles where they are weaker i feel like you can overcome it in the end. I simply don't use that graft if i have a diplomacy deck its just how it is lol. I agree with quick thinking though its the first card i remove from my deck. Its that bad IMO. I also dont like the admiralty cards either i think there are 2 that ill live with and some i just accept as something to remove in time.

 

3 hours ago, Hraklea said:

Hostility cards

• Below and Bluster are too weak before they upgrade.
• Stone Bulldozer is too strong.

I agree below and buster suck. They don't really add any useful utility and dominance is actually pretty hard to build up. There about as good as the starter red cards and i remove those from my deck so i no longer draft these ever. Bulldoze in general is the best card in the game. Should honestly cost 3 for the power it provides. 

 

3 hours ago, Hraklea said:

Diplomacy

• Build Rapport, Calling in All Favor, Calm, Empathy, Good Impression, Ipso Facto and Magnetic Charm are too weak.

Build rapport is actually useful sometimes if i don't have solid point or setup. I use it in decks where i have tyrannize and domineer. Not often i draft this card but i still do. Calling in all favors/calm/ipso facto and empathy i agree and i never draft these cards. However good impression is a great early game card and you can remove it or abuse expend cards on it later. However by the time my diplomacy decks get rolling the negotiation is over in 2 turns. Magnetic charm is very strong actually and removes the need for solid point/build rapport.

3 hours ago, Hraklea said:

Maneuvers

• Brainstorm, Pure Style, Seeds of Doubt and White Lie are too weak.

Brainstorm is actually very good and is pretty much my go to card to draw and cycle to whats needed to win negotiations in 1-2 turns late game. I don't like pure style either should be changed. Also if you build a deck around seeds of doubt/white lie it can actually get pretty strong. White lie is probably the most painful card to level up though. I have made heavy defense decks that reach around 30 stacks before.

 

3 hours ago, Hraklea said:

Discard cards

• Duster is too weak.

To me it feels like a freebie discard mechanic. I don't think its to bad its about as good as the cards you have to discard.

There changing combo in the experimental build. Persists through turns and is halved for each unmitigated hit. So look forward to that. Should make it a lot better. Give diplomacy another chance while your at it and you'll see its actually pretty powerful.

 

 

[pacovf]

4 minutes ago, TheCoolestFool said:

Bulldoze in general is the best card in the game. Should honestly cost 3 for the power it provides. 

Shhhhhhh, don't speak too loud, or Klei will catch on to this and nerf it!

 

4 minutes ago, TheCoolestFool said:

[about duster] To me it feels like a freebie discard mechanic. I don't think its to bad its about as good as the cards you have to discard.

Duster is kinda bad by itself. It's just that there are a lot of cards that reward you for discarding, so it's good in discard decks.

[TheCoolestFool]

Ive been going out of my way to not use bulldoze because its broken lol but lets be real all my negotiation decks win in 1-2 turns by day 4 and sometimes day 3. So bulldoze isn't the only card to blame for being to strong.

[pacovf]

I think the reason I don't mind Bulldoze being very strong, while I do mind for other cards, is that:

• it costs 2, so you won't be doing much the turn you play it;
• it doesn't actually win the negotiation, it just helps your (hostile) deck do whatever it is you make it do.

This is in contrast to things like upgraded Boulder stance, that just negate all danger from combat, or old (?) Scorched Earth, that would win a negotiation for you. I think it's fine for some support cards to be strong. 

[TheCoolestFool]

2 minutes ago, pacovf said:

I think the reason I don't mind Bulldoze being very strong, while I do mind for other cards, is that:

• it costs 2, so you won't be doing much the turn you play it;
• it doesn't actually win the negotiation, it just helps your (hostile) deck do whatever it is you make it do.

This is in contrast to things like upgraded Boulder stance, that just negate all danger from combat, or old (?) Scorched Earth, that would win a negotiation for you. I think it's fine for some support cards to be strong. 

Fair point it really doesn't win on its own. It just feels like cheating when im cycling 2 veiled anger and an evil eyes/setup for an infinite win.

[TheCoolestFool]

Here is why i love brainstorm (bulldoze would work here to). Pretty much go off on turn one or i get to many composure cards to start with and i go off turn 2 instead.

[Hraklea]

Thanks for the replies. =D

The disagreements I'm not replying is because I'm inclined to agree I don't have enough experience with those cards and I'm probably wrong.

6 hours ago, pacovf said:

Agree with most of what you say. The only things I disagree with are:

• Vertical Slash comes from Sal's bloody daggers, Boosted slash comes from Improved Dirty fighting. It's not too bad if they aren't exactly equal in power because they serve different functions. Vertical Slash being better than Gouge, that is a problem though.
• As far as counter cards are concerned, Spined Rebound is crazy. Way better than everything else. Combat readiness is mostly about the card draw, it's fine there.
• Admiralty cards are wildly unequal. Very convincing is weak, Flash badge is very weak. But Bolster is crazy strong, and the one that deals damage based on your influence can be good.
• Build rapport and Magnetic charm are ok. Not super strong, but not all cards have to be. Good impression, on the other hand, is really good. It's a lot of upfront damage, both of the upgrades are great, and most negotiations won't last that long once you have your deck going.

A few comments on what you said:

• I meant to compare Vertical Slash with the other card that comes from Sal Bloody Daggers (Gouge.) My bad.
• I agree, Spined Rebound is very strong.
• I agree, Bolser is crazy strong.
• Tried Good Impression a couple of times, but it lost its damage too quickly for me.

6 hours ago, TheCoolestFool said:

I played a lot of p7 to and i actually think diplomacy decks are on pare with hostility decks. Those few battles where they are weaker i feel like you can overcome it in the end. I simply don't use that graft if i have a diplomacy deck its just how it is lol. I agree with quick thinking though its the first card i remove from my deck. Its that bad IMO. I also dont like the admiralty cards either i think there are 2 that ill live with and some i just accept as something to remove in time.

I agree you can overcome the downsides of playing Diplomacy. But I think Hostility downsides are not as harsh. 

6 hours ago, TheCoolestFool said:

Also if you build a deck around seeds of doubt/white lie it can actually get pretty strong. White lie is probably the most painful card to level up though. I have made heavy defense decks that reach around 30 stacks before.

I'v tried building a deck based on Doubt many times, it didn't worked for me on the most recent patches. Hitting a random target in the end of the opponent's turn seems too slow for high prestige negotiations.

[Daxterr]

4 hours ago, TheCoolestFool said:

Here is why i love brainstorm (bulldoze would work here to). Pretty much go off on turn one or i get to many composure cards to start with and i go off turn 2 instead.

Wow you broke the game. 

[TheCoolestFool]

Your not wrong about doubt decks being slow. They are very slow. Its just hard to build a proper one but I've had success with using entrapment and back pedal to form a pretty solid defense and slowly ramp up with seeds of doubt or white lie. exploit weakness or deceive is nice to speed things up and are pretty much necessary to have one or the other. Good intentions and flatter should keep the arguments from overpowering you early on. I grab agitation in this deck to, speeds up the early game battles and by day 4 its not so bad. Doubt cards kinda just support like any other manipulation card. Don't have to grab every single one, just one of each is good enough.

Here is a doubt p7 deck that made it all the way. by day 3 night it had so much composure nothing did damage to me. Only fight that i took damage from was the bartender fight before Nadan. Finally got deceive on day 3 boss and picked up just the facts  (on day 4) to expend all the non purple stuff that didnt draw cards and extra white lies after i was done with them. Probably would have grabbed seeds of doubt but it never showed up and id like to have got rid of 2 more starter cards.

[E.X.D.]

I really think you underestimate diplomacy, I've had way more success with diplomacy as compared to hostility in higher prestige runs. One of my go to combos is rapid fire + airtight. I play defensive and build my influence for a few turns and then all at once I'll release a lot of damage and cover every one of my arguments in composure.

[Hraklea]

3 hours ago, E.X.D. said:

I really think you underestimate diplomacy, I've had way more success with diplomacy as compared to hostility in higher prestige runs. One of my go to combos is rapid fire + airtight. I play defensive and build my influence for a few turns and then all at once I'll release a lot of damage and cover every one of my arguments in composure.

Airtight more often than not protects the wrong argument for me, so unless I have Elucidate (Elucidade + Airtight is insanely strong), Airtight doesn't do well on my runs.

Hostility is pretty solid, as Dominance and Heat scales, Dominance has more Health than Influence, and you can have many routes to take depending on the cards that show up, and all of them have high damage. I'm sure many of you have success with Diplomacy, but "way more success compared to Hostility" is not something I can imagine hahaha.

[TheCoolestFool]

All types of decks i feel are pretty viable right now. Deck types are hostility/diplomacy/mixed and even doubt/bounty hunter. It really just comes down to preference. There really is only a handful of cards i don't really use. Stuff like menacing air and level the playing field and those awful admiralty cards come to mind. Pretty happy how negotiation decks are right now but they get pretty crazy around day 3. 

On a side note I wouldn't mind if intimidation/insult attempts were changed they just kinda play out the same. They really need something to change it up. Something unique entirely should be used for insult i think and just forget what kind of battle it normally is. As for intimidation its just very bland with the unplayable cards. Something that makes you think and have to change strategy would be better.