Monster Growth Suggestion and Initial Feedback

[darkenspirit]

It needs more tweaking if you ask me.

Tweaking yes!I think the most important balancing thing we can add is maybe marginally decreasing returns to eating the same food over and over.Example, you eat Cooked or Regular carrots exclusively and eventually it reaches the point where the carrots do not give you anything at all in terms of hunger replenishment. This has an invisible counter that slowly returns the food back to its original power only after a long period of time where the character does not eat it. This makes it so players cannot: - Horde one food, Morsels or Monster meat and Candy.- Make players eat variety regularly meaning more food could possibly spoil and require better management.- Causes the food spoilage mechanic to actually affect the players more dynamically.I imagine early game players are eating Carrots, Berries and Morsels in rotation. Once those has run out of its marginal benefit, players will have to shift towards crock pot recipes, farm plots for different foods and rotate between those varieties OR just be forced to go out and stock up way more.This makes space more precious, makes the player have more things to do and puts the starve back in DONT STARVE!

[mobius187]

I think the most important balancing thing we can add is maybe marginally decreasing returns to eating the same food over and over.Example, you eat Cooked or Regular carrots exclusively and eventually it reaches the point where the carrots do not give you anything at all in terms of hunger replenishment. This has an invisible counter that slowly returns the food back to its original power only after a long period of time where the character does not eat it.

Wait, weren't we talking about tweaking the sanity rules so players couldn't avoid insanity so easily? When did food become involved? :pActually this discussion has come up before, but not as "diminishing returns", rather more like "food poisoning". It involved the idea that if a player exclusively ate vegetables OR meat, they would suffer health problems (and this isn't an imaginary problem, it exists in reality too). However rather than be connected to specific foods, the issue was linked to those two groups of foods. Also you would need to track foods cooked in the crock pot too.However, I would have to ask, what is the main purpose for requesting this update? What are the merits of forcing players to eat various foods? Is there a serious issue right now with players only eating one or two foods? Let me examine some of the reasons you did provide...

- Horde one food, Morsels or Monster meat and Candy.

Okay, so you want to prevent players from hoarding just a few foods. Is hoarding the issue or the foods that are being hoarded? Maybe candy is broken and needs to be fixed as a better solution.

- Make players eat variety regularly meaning more food could possibly spoil and require better management.

Food spoilage seems to work fine right now, well, unless you have issues with the whole stack being replenished by fresh food. However short of assigning rot values to individual foods I cannot see how this issue could be overcome.I should mention though that Project Zomboid (indie game) actually does track food spoilage on a per item basis...

- Causes the food spoilage mechanic to actually affect the players more dynamically.

Please provide more details.

I imagine early game players are eating Carrots, Berries and Morsels in rotation.

I usually just imagine eating whatever I can get my grubby hands on.

Once those has run out of its marginal benefit, players will have to shift towards crock pot recipes, farm plots for different foods and rotate between those varieties OR just be forced to go out and stock up way more.

So long as they researched those advancements.

This makes space more precious, makes the player have more things to do and puts the starve back in DONT STARVE!

I'm not sure how this would impact space. What I would like to see is a more interactive farm plot that requires tending and watering as a means of engaging the player more. And if they would rather not, then they just wouldn't build a farm plot.Still, you've made some good points.

[darkenspirit]

I'm not sure how this would impact space. What I would like to see is a more interactive farm plot that requires tending and watering as a means of engaging the player more. And if they would rather not, then they just wouldn't build a farm plot.Still, you've made some good points.

Ah I see what you are saying in all of your post. And yea I do understand better now that maybe it is infact the individual foods needing tweaking.I think what I am getting at is, individual changes probably wont have significant impact but the its the impact of everything happening at once that drives the player engagement.I mentioned in the other thread where Greed was talking about monster avoidance how maybe having spiders (which in my opinion are literally at your convenience monsters) can be made more dangerous late game by having the ability to build dens on their own and expand their presence. The watering and tending weeds to the farm plots is a very good idea. Im thinking back to Harvest moon a little bit on the SNES where theres advancement and random events. Maybe thats the answer to engaging players more as they sink into the end game is to have events that are repeatable or continue to become more challenging. (global monster health increase as time passes?)No one said Maxwell was playing fair! (Im looking at you maxwell traps >_>)At the rate the game has been going however I will probably be more than pleased with hte final result come end of Apr.

[mobius187]

I think what I am getting at is, individual changes probably wont have significant impact but the its the impact of everything happening at once that drives the player engagement.

While I agree focusing all the effort, or blame, on one aspect of the gameplay obscures the truth revealed when you focus on the gameplay as a whole, I still think challenges need to be carefully balanced so they do not overwhelm the player.For me survival games are about what needs to be done and what can be done. The first are tasks the player needs to perform in order to survive from one day to the next, while the second refers to those tasks the player sets for himself and connects to the sandbox elements of the game. The balancing comes in with the needs and how much of the player's allotted time they occupy in order to fulfill them. Too few and the game becomes too easy, too many and the game becomes tedious/hard.Consider another game, The Sims. At the start the player is forced to devote all their time just to meeting basic needs while working to optimize their lives to best meet these needs. However as time progresses the player is rewarded with benefits that help mitigate some of these needs and slowly the player is provided with more free time to pursue their own "wants". The same is true in other games, like Minecraft, where initially your efforts are focused on simply surviving, but as each day passes you are able to branch out into the other sandbox/creative elements of the game.What I hope is that Don't Starve remains difficult, but still allows players the chance to obtain a degree of freedom where they do not feel like every day is a constant struggle to not die. I know there are players who would disagree with me, but to them I would say Klei has already provided a solution, the ability to create portals to more challenging new worlds, a path they can take the moment they feel bored with the difficulty of their current world (i.e. when they feel they've "beaten it" and there's no longer any challenge). Players who would rather not could just stay in the world they've mastered.Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter (without getting into the specifics). However everyone is entitled to their beliefs in this matter.

I mentioned in the other thread where Greed was talking about monster avoidance how maybe having spiders (which in my opinion are literally at your convenience monsters) can be made more dangerous late game by having the ability to build dens on their own and expand their presence.

Yes, I know exactly which thread you are referring to as I read it this morning (no post from me however). I agree that spiders should be feared. Maybe not unlike the corruption in Terraria... spreading their webby influence across the island. It would be interesting if spiders affected the biomes they occupied, perhaps causing pine trees to become withered, flowers to perish, and grass to become discoloured (or covered in webs, as normal). Then the player would build a wall to hold off the spread of the spider nests and their influence before launching an attack to purge them from the island... you know, give the player something to do.

The watering and tending weeds to the farm plots is a very good idea. Im thinking back to Harvest moon a little bit on the SNES where theres advancement and random events.

Yes. Farm plots are not the only source of food, so players not interested in tending the farm plots could ignore them, but they wouldn't just "plant and forget" like they do right now. Or worse, use manure to speed-grow. Funny you should mention Harvest Moon, I played it a while back on the NDS when I friend loaned it to me and I recall getting upset with the Stamina/Fatigue system. I was always so damn tired... :pWhen I think about tending crops I'm reminded of a review I watched for a farming mod created for Project Zomboid. In it the player tills the soil (i.e. creates farm plots), plants seeds (i.e. same as in Don't Starve), but then you need to water the plants and weed the garden. You can also use fertilizer (i.e. manure) to help the crops grow faster, but they never grow too fast. The crops grow in stages too.Another player once suggested that we should have two types of crops: those that grow fairly quickly and with minimal effort required to tend to them, but are harvest once; and those crops that require more time/effort to grow, but then harvest more than once over a few days (i.e. like tomatoes). I thought this was a very interesting idea, since players who didn't want to invest too much time in farming could grow easy crops, while those who took the time (because they wanted to) would be rewarded with more food as a result of their efforts.

Maybe thats the answer to engaging players more as they sink into the end game is to have events that are repeatable or continue to become more challenging. (global monster health increase as time passes?)

I do think random events would be a nice change to the monotony of every day being like the last (well, except for Winter, of course). It would help spice up the game, not to mention unique locations and creatures (i.e. similar to the Koalaphant) would also help. I'm not a huge fan of "increased difficulty over time", rather I prefer the idea that each island you portal to should delegate the increases in dificulty as a decision of the player rather than an arbitrary one enforced by the passage of time (and player success, at not dying/starving).

No one said Maxwell was playing fair! (Im looking at you maxwell traps >_>)

Agreed... but what do we know about Maxwell's true intentions?

At the rate the game has been going however I will probably be more than pleased with hte final result come end of Apr.

Yup, time will yield more definitive results. I am still hopeful that the released game will meet most of the expections set by its players.