Fog of war on the research tree

[ascrane]

I think that the developers should fog of war the research tree.

 

 

 

[IzzyXD]

Disagree - it's a strategy game and the main part of strategy is planning ahead. This removes the ability to plan ahead or know even what you can do in the game. Plus, people will just go to Wikis if it's added. Seems like a waste of development time to remove the strategy aspect & make it more luck-based.

[ascrane]

I'll give you this: I hadn't thought of people doing the wiki thing.

But exactly my point re:strategy ... leave the first column uncovered for folks to do. Then, if a subject is researched to completion, the next column in line is uncovered. Thus - STRATEGY is required to determine what is next to research. 

It is odd to think that a simple battery can lead to Hydrogen power; unless the Dupes already know if that is an option. But where is the fun in DISCOVERY? The entire tree is already laid out.

What do I have to research to get to NUCLEAR POWER? Is that an option? ... I just thought that adding fog of war in to the game would add some suspense and fun.

[Michi01]

I think the icons of structures that haven't been unlocked yet should definitely be hidden. The way it's now is not consistent with the build menu.

[Vim Razz]

3 hours ago, Michi01 said:

I think the icons of structures that haven't been unlocked yet should definitely be hidden. The way it's now is not consistent with the build menu.

I'm not seeing the value in making things "consistent" that way.  Presently, the build menu provides a reminder/indication that you're very close to unlocking particular structures, and for more information you can go to the research tree. Having icons hidden there prevents confusion as to whether the item is unlocked or not.

Hiding icons hidden in the research tree would only make items more time consuming to find, making planning more tedious, without providing any practical gameplay benefit that I can think of.

[Michi01]

3 hours ago, Vim Razz said:

Hiding icons hidden in the research tree would only make items more time consuming to find, making planning more tedious, without providing any practical gameplay benefit that I can think of.

I think you are very strongly exaggerating the negative aspects here. I don't think anyone ever uses the images to find things in the research tree, they're too small for that (but not too small to look at), it's much easier to find things there by text. Players who are experienced enough to instantly recognize a structure and remember what it does by looking at it will probably know where or under what category to find things anyway. Players who are not won't have anything taken away by not knowing what a structure looks like before researching it.
I also disagree with your first argument. If the devs' only intention was to let players know that they haven't unlocked a structure yet, they could have done it in a simpler way such as making the structure's image red. I believe that hiding the way a structure looks there was also done to add some effect of suspense and discovery as players will (would, if it worked that way in the research tree) only over time find out what structures look like as they discover them via research.

[PhailRaptor]

All this does is put a burden of knowledge on the player, and it doesn't actually add anything to the game by doing it.

[Vim Razz]

59 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

I don't think anyone ever uses the images to find things in the research tree, they're too small for that (but not too small to look at), it's much easier to find things there by text.

I do...  In order to see the names you need to mouse over every individual icon -- or is there a setting for that?

1 hour ago, Michi01 said:

Players who are experienced enough to instantly recognize a structure and remember what it does by looking at it will probably know where or under what category to find things anyway.

With the way they've been reshuffling and expanding the tech tree over the last few months, I've long since given up on trying to remember where things are that way.  If you can do it, that's awesome.  Not all of us play as often or are on your level.

1 hour ago, Michi01 said:

I also disagree with your first argument. If the devs' only intention was to let players know that they haven't unlocked a structure yet, they could have done it in a simpler way such as making the structure's image red. I believe that hiding the way a structure looks there was also done to add some effect of suspense and discovery as players will (would, if it worked that way in the research tree) only over time find out what structures look like as they discover them via research.

I have no idea if that was their specific intention or not -- it could be a half-implemented idea for something that just hasn't been fixed or removed yet, for all I know.

Sometimes when I'm playing, though, I'll notice that I've got something i could use that's almost unlocked in the build menu, and change my research to punch it out sooner.  (Normally, I focus the few items that I really want early, then just randomly research branches when dupes aren't busy with other things unless I remember something that I forgot.)

So in that sense it has a tangible benefit that I can see, regardless of it's reason for being that way in the first place.

 

Hiding the research tree without purpose isn't something I can get behind, though, and it's not for lack of familiarity with the concept -- KSP was like that for years during EA, and XCOM 2 is still in that boat.  If you're not looking up that information through outside sources (or don't have the tree completely memorized), then all it does is prevent you planning ahead or making informed decisions about what you might want to try next.

I don't see "suspense and discovery" as being enough to make up for that. It works in a game like Don't Starve (where you don't need to plan as far ahead to do things), but it doesn't strike me as a good fit for ONI. 

(Though, tbh, I am particularly sour on any notion of suspense or surprise in research at the moment because of Astroneer's random-lotto research system -- as more items get added to that game, it becomes increasingly tedious to unlock the few you need to get up and running in the beginning.)

[Michi01]

28 minutes ago, Vim Razz said:

I do...  In order to see the names you need to mouse over every individual icon -- or is there a setting for that?

This must be a misunderstanding, what I meant was that the icons of the buildings should be hidden behind the same symbol that the build menu uses to hide the icons of unresearched items while still allowing you to hover over them to see their name (just like their name is still displayed in the build menu).
Also something that I forgot to elaborate on earlier, what I was also trying to say by stating that it's "inconsistent" is that it seems like an unintended inconsistency. As I basically explained, to me, hiding the icons in the build menu only really seems to serve the purpose of hiding them because "you don't know what it looks like because you haven't researched it yet" and I suppose also preventing the player from being overwhelmed by all the structures there are. If I was right on that then it would only make sense for them to also hide what they look like in the research tree and it's unintended that that's not the case.

[CherryHavoc]

17 hours ago, Michi01 said:

This must be a misunderstanding, what I meant was that the icons of the buildings should be hidden behind the same symbol that the build menu uses to hide the icons of unresearched items while still allowing you to hover over them to see their name (just like their name is still displayed in the build menu).
Also something that I forgot to elaborate on earlier, what I was also trying to say by stating that it's "inconsistent" is that it seems like an unintended inconsistency. As I basically explained, to me, hiding the icons in the build menu only really seems to serve the purpose of hiding them because "you don't know what it looks like because you haven't researched it yet" and I suppose also preventing the player from being overwhelmed by all the structures there are. If I was right on that then it would only make sense for them to also hide what they look like in the research tree and it's unintended that that's not the case.

In the build menu you have the text to tell you what it is, whereas in the research tree you don't. You're relying on that little icon to be able to tell you what it is. I know you can hover the items to tell you what they are, but imagine trying to find one specific thing you can't remember where it is if none of them had icons or text, just tooltips.

The suspense thing could be fun the first time you play it, becuase it might entice you to discover what else is on the tree. However, after multiple games it's going to get tedious and annoying.

I still disagree it's a good idea even the first time you play it. I'm more inclined to research stuff if I think it's going to be an exciting answer to a problem I have. I won't have that bait if I don't know what's there.

The other side of the argument I guess would be to have the actual images in the build menu, but then how would you show the difference between something you haven't researched yet, and something that you just don't have the materials for? I guess it could be done, but if we were going to change anything I'd change the build menu, not the research tree.

I'm pretty happy with the way it is though.