Techs past step 2 should require conditions

[Developous]

Think about this. It shouldn't be easy to grow past the 2nd stage. If you look carefully, each step always increases the conditions.

Insulation: All the rooms where beds are located must have a breathable atmosphere and a comfortable temperature, further, there must be at least 5 people provided with beds as well.

Medical Bay: All your current citizens must have full health, or 1 person must be lower than 30% health.

Advanced Filtration: Have at least 3 of each percolation techs developed connected by tubing to a relevant non-percolation technology.

 

[AlexRou]

At least 70% of the developed rooms must have a machine regulating the temperature

How do you determine a room? What if I never build doors and 4 walls and just build everywhere, does that mean there is only one big room and so I just add one thermal regulator or something and this condition is fulfilled? 

At least 3 people must be 70% wounded.

Does this mean I have to purposely harm dupes to be wounded? Does it mean they must be wounded at the same time while I am researching?

Have at least 3 of each percolation device connected by tubing.

Firstly what is a percolation device, secondly why can't I just build 3 but not plugged in. If it have to be plugged in, does it mean the research will only progress while it is plugged in?

[Yokhen]

Even overlooking all the fallacies in those conditions (some of which were pointed out by AlexRou), there are already enough implicit conditions to using a certain technology even if it's already researched, making it harder to attain/use technology won't make the game more fun (there is a certain level of enjoyable suffering, but this would take it way further than it).

[Developous]

1 hour ago, Yokhen said:

Even overlooking all the fallacies in those conditions (some of which were pointed out by AlexRou), there are already enough implicit conditions to using a certain technology even if it's already researched, making it harder to attain/use technology won't make the game more fun (there is a certain level of enjoyable suffering, but this would take it way further than it).

Hmm... I'm inclined to agree. Too much complexity is a bad thing. But think about this - I didn't do it for the discipline and complexity, but because of logistics. The step from 1 to 2 is an example, upgrading to computers. So, It's only logical that higher steps not only need more advanced structures, but also major research additions.

[Yokhen]

44 minutes ago, Developous said:

Hmm... I'm inclined to agree. Too much complexity is a bad thing. But think about this - I didn't do it for the discipline and complexity, but because of logistics. The step from 1 to 2 is an example, upgrading to computers. So, It's only logical that higher steps not only need more advanced structures, but also major research additions.

Maybe but even then those conditions still need to be toned down a lot. The moment I get my first dupe hurt I will build my first medical bay, I'm not gonna wait until I have a third one hurt and possibly the first one is dead already, small things like that that just wouldn't fly.

[Developous]

6 minutes ago, Yokhen said:

Maybe but even then those conditions still need to be toned down a lot. The moment I get my first dupe hurt I will build my first medical bay, I'm not gonna wait until I have a third one hurt and possibly the first one is dead already, small things like that that just wouldn't fly.

That means we definitely must find better conditions any way you put it then. !!!
 

Edited.

[ATOM7K]

In my honest opinion I think the tech tree should require more conditions but it should require resources only obtainable by exploring large portions of the map and/or by manipulating the gases and liquids using the temperature mechanics. For example instead of just requiring Water for the Super Computer it could also require; Liquid Oxygen, Liquid CO2, Liquid Chlorine, Liquid Phosphorous, or any of their solid forms. A logical progression would need to be worked out but it could make research more interesting and changeling then it currently is.

[AlexRou]

Just now, ATOM7K said:

In my honest opinion I think the tech tree should require more conditions but it should require resources only obtainable by exploring large portions of the map and/or by manipulating the gases and liquids using the temperature mechanics. For example instead of just requiring Water for the Super Computer it could also require; Liquid Oxygen, Liquid CO2, Liquid Chlorine, Liquid Phosphorous, or any of their solid forms. A logical progression would need to be worked out but it could make research more interesting and changeling then it currently is.

But you have a problem ... to make liquid anything you require researching things that requires the super computer

[ATOM7K]

4 minutes ago, AlexRou said:

But you have a problem ... to make liquid anything you require researching things that requires the super computer

Since they have added the Ice Biome it may be possible in future updates to utilize this Biome alone to create cryo liquids without advanced research. Its also possible to dig down to the Magma layer and create Liquid Phosphorous without advanced research. Of course there is also the option that they change up the tech tree in future updates such that the player can start manipulating the temperature mechanics while locking out other advanced research.

[Developous]

That has me thinking of the situation better. But I'm a tech kind of guy...

[AlexRou]

7 minutes ago, ATOM7K said:

Since they have added the Ice Biome it may be possible in future updates to utilize this Biome alone to create cryo liquids without advanced research. Its also possible to dig down to the Magma layer and create Liquid Phosphorous without advanced research. Of course there is also the option that they change up the tech tree in future updates such that the player can start manipulating the temperature mechanics while locking out other advanced research.

Any temperature that can turn gas into liquids or solids into liquids will very quickly kill dupes. This alone would make researching hard as hell. With the current temperature of the ice biome my base is already at single digits celsius, what do you think will happen at < -200C. And have you ever dug down to magma? It takes a very long time and so if you only have tech 1 everyone will die by then.

Also you would need filtration else it will break by pumping in the wrong liquids. I do not see a tech tree that would work and make sense if supercomputers require that much work/tech.

[Developous]

Side with Alex on that idea, I hate to say. Temperature is a big problem now.

[alcurad90]

The tech-tree itself should be killed, not make it harder

 

For me I will easilly finish the techtree in 30-40 cycles, and thats when I can start to set up a base for long time living

[Airget]

Yea, I think having requirement based research could just be used on RNG mechanics in which the research machine still has utility after unlocking everything.

Like when they release artifacts, it would make little sense to know what it does outright without researching it so at this point you could have different materials needed to research it, add 3 new "fuels" to basic and 3 to the other computer. 

Maybe the artifact could have different requirements to unlock, you find a red artifact, and it has 3 requirements to learn what it is. Each research tier you unlock the ??? and until you fulfil that requirement you can't research it further.

So you'll have something like,

"Red pulsating Ball" Basic 0/10, Intermediate, 0/10

Tier 1 Requirement "place in a room with 50-75 temp and study the reaction to it for 1 cycle" Then you can add another function to researchers, the ability to study an object in certain conditions, or even create a "Laboratory" in which you can create small test size temperature controlled rooms to fulfill requirements. 

Tier 2 could be Basic 0/10, Intermediate 0/20 with the unlocked requirement of "Submerge in cold water and ice it over, testing how it react to said environment for 2 cycles"

Finally Tier 3, Basic 0/20, Intermediate 0/20, with the unlocked requirement "Place next to that ice plant and study it's reaction to the plant for 2 cycles."

Then once you fulfill all 3 requirements, you take it to the research machine once more and it gives you a duration of how long it will take to analyze all the data collected and come to a conclusion to what the artifact can do, in this case it could take 2 cycle to figure out what it does but during this process both machines would have to be running, even though it's done automatically the "2 cycle time frame" is total time needed so if the machines go down because of overheating or power outage it will pause the time left on discovering what the object is.

By doing this though, you can have you "requirement" based research just have it tied to the specific artifacts rather than the base research itself.

[ATOM7K]

12 hours ago, AlexRou said:

Any temperature that can turn gas into liquids or solids into liquids will very quickly kill dupes. This alone would make researching hard as hell. With the current temperature of the ice biome my base is already at single digits celsius, what do you think will happen at < -200C. And have you ever dug down to magma? It takes a very long time and so if you only have tech 1 everyone will die by then.

I agree with you 100%, I was just trying to come up with a good use for the liquids in the game that currently have no practical use yet. From the good points you have made the only way to get research to work with other liquids would be if they spawned on their own naturally and if they were accessible relatively close to the base and also did not kill the dupes so not sure if that would ever work. I have not dug down to the Magma in the Thermal Upgrade but I have seen a few youtubers get down that far and have the dupes run through liquid phosphorous so I think it does not kill them immediately. I have also seen a bug with the fan where it creates solid CO2 in the base without killing the dupes but this will probably be patched out. Another option for increased research complexity would be just requiring different amounts of minerals thus encouraging the player to hunt for all minerals and metals in the game and to explore each biome.