So, how does Endless compare to the Campaign?

[himmatsj]

I've completed the campaign thrice now - Beginner, Expert and Expert Ironman (with countless other short-lived runs). 

 

I'm thinking of doing an endless run, until 5 days at least..but I just want to know, how exactly do things get more difficult? Is it that each time the difficulty level increases, there are more guards spawned at the beginning of a level? Is it that the "guard quality/armor" increases? Does guard AI increase? What about number of firewalls on programs...do those increase by a lot as well? 

 

Thanks!

[Shirsh]

Things get more difficult at day 5 and more: omni-guys everywhere, Daemons 2.0, Daemons 2.0 at start, exit passcards. Firewalls should be too.

[0celot]

At Day 5 you start to encounter Super Daemons. They trigger at the beginning of a level and can have adverse effects like:

Raise the alert level by 10 (starting you on alarm level 2)

Increase item cooldowns for 20 turns.

Reduce AP for 20 turns.

Power consumption +2 for 20 turns

All sorts of bad shizzwaz.

Higher firewall levels. It's not unusual to see a camera or sound sensor at firewall level 5.

In addition, sometimes an event will trigger where guards will continuously be alerted to your teams location and you'll have to keep juking the guards around

Also, you have to find an item called an exit card, which unlocks a door to the exit elevator. This is usually hidden in a safe somewhere in the level.

[himmatsj]

Damn, that sounds more interesting than my harrowing 45 turn Expert campaign finale, where all four of my team members died, save for Monster and Mother.

 

Just curious, at level 5 onwards, is it imperative to use hostile approaches? Or can things still be done covertly without resorting to cloaking?

[Shirsh]

It could be overwhelming at first, but after several missions it became clearer how to play stealth with it. Yeah, once you adapt, things can be done covertly.

[Spider1011]

on a good run you can be out before alarm level 3. with 4 agents on max speed and a lot of toys you can cover the whole map pretty fast. learning to predict guards and using TAG is an important skill to have. I never had to go full rambo mode yet although I do carry multiple Flurry Guns just in case. a lot depends on which Archdaemon you get on turn 1.

 

Cloak isn't mandatory but Cloaking Rig 3 is very strong and I'd recomend picking some up.

I actually saw someone streaming on twitch Endless Expert + with timelimit. He was on day 7 with only 2 agents still. He was running around on alarm level 6 for dozens of turns because of Cloaking and Holocircuit Overloaders. pretty hilarious.

[leonseye]

I've completed the campaign thrice now - Beginner, Expert and Expert Ironman (with countless other short-lived runs). 

 

I'm thinking of doing an endless run, until 5 days at least..but I just want to know, how exactly do things get more difficult? Is it that each time the difficulty level increases, there are more guards spawned at the beginning of a level? Is it that the "guard quality/armor" increases? Does guard AI increase? What about number of firewalls on programs...do those increase by a lot as well? 

 

Thanks!

 

If you've done Expert Ironman, I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to at least run Endless until Day 10, which is where you will have seen pretty much everything that Endless has to throw at you.  : )

[himmatsj]

Ok good sirs, so after Expert Ironman, I started a new run with reaching Day 6 (to get the achievement at least) of Endless Mode in mind. 

 

 

I've managed to do that on my first try, without needing to use a single rewind!

 

It started getting challenging after Day 4, when there are freaking starting daemons that are tough, but otherwise, it's been manageable.

 

Power: Seed, Lockpick 2, Ping, Hammer, Daemon Sniffer

 

Agents: Internationale, Prism, Decker and Xu.

 

I've got decent gear, but I don't have particularly good augments.

 

My question now is, how much more difficult is it to reach Day 10, from Day 6? Is it super-duper impossible/difficult? Or can it be done? If I want to reach Day 10, it has to be on this run. I'm not gonna replay again, cause I've got to move on to the Mass Effect trilogy and This War of Mine and have already spent 40 hours on Invisible Inc. I will still be doing a Faust+Brimstone Expert run to get two pending achievements.

 

Thanks!

 

Edit: Also, another thing, after day 6, do you also make it a point to complete the mission, or do you get out of there as soon as such an avenue opens up? I kinda skipped the complete missions, yet I have large amounts of money.

[himmatsj]

Dammit, I'm up to Day 9 now!!! Defeat now would be completely heart-breaking and gut-wrenching. Still no restarts. Any advice? I just wanna complete 10 days, is all!

[Spider1011]

not much is going to change from now on. more and more Omni guards instead of the regular ones and the firewalls are going to get a bit higher. you should be pretty much good to go. maybe throw out Daemon Sniffer and/or Ping for some more hacking programs.

[himmatsj]

not much is going to change from now on. more and more Omni guards instead of the regular ones and the firewalls are going to get a bit higher. you should be pretty much good to go. maybe throw out Daemon Sniffer and/or Ping for some more hacking programs.

Hmm, anyways I completed Day 10 yesterday. Indeed, it was just moe difficult with nothing new added in since Day 5, but on most missions I exited as soon as I got the exit card, due to a fear of losing.

Blowfish 2.0 is the worst, as is the 2 power increase for 20 turns. I avoided Plastech and Senkaku in the final days, kept alternating between the other two corps.

[JimThePea]

I found once I got to a certain point in Endless, the missions were long and messy but very doable by my maxed-out team, so it got a little choresome for me, especially as gameplay reduces down to a particular kind of loadout and approach.

 

That said, it's well worth a go, the journey is more fun than the destination.

 

[NL6]

the journey is more fun than the destination.

 

Probably one of oldest truths in human existence and applies to nearly every game

[0celot]

Hmm, anyways I completed Day 10 yesterday. Indeed, it was just moe difficult with nothing new added in since Day 5, but on most missions I exited as soon as I got the exit card, due to a fear of losing.

Blowfish 2.0 is the worst, as is the 2 power increase for 20 turns. I avoided Plastech and Senkaku in the final days, kept alternating between the other two corps.

Plastech is the worst for quiet runs due to those darned MK1s sometimes recapturing critical items. Sankaku is not *too* bad. My strategies for dealing with Sankaku involve budgeting power use properly, managing bot aggro and taking over bigger bots and using them to kill smaller ones if I plan to go loud (and I usually do towards the end of a run). Having a lethal gun like a flurry gun is invaluable as sometimes there's a bot that *must* die lest it take the whole mission down the crapper.

One of the most recent endless missions I did (Day 8) was a Plastech Vault run, with omni-protectors also walking around.

The first and second rooms were peaceful but third room which had all the doors was covered by tough patrol paths. I tried slipping past that room but alerted a guard and the whole facility, so I panicked hid all my agents. There was no way I was going to succeed at this run without making serious noise.

So I panicked and use my vault card to unlock the exit door and moved my team there to evacuate (zonking out a lot of guards on the way). The facility was in full alert and making an escape at this point would be a safe choice.

Then I realized I was in a perfect position to try grab some more things so I put down a couple of Server IIIs on the elevator tiles and started exploring more. Alarm Levels went up, more guards appeared, but I kept suppressing them with door traps (Banks had 2 Lv.3 Traps) and holocircuit overloaders (Nika and Internationale) while Sharp ran around beating up stragglers and freshly spawned guards..

There were at least 10 KOed guards by the time I cleaned the place out. Didn't get to loot the vault but was pleasantly surprised that unspent exit cards remain in your inventory, so now I have an out in case another run looks like it's going to go sour.

[Spider1011]

you could have actually looted the vault. exit cards currently work on vault doors and don't even get used up. I'm pretty sure that's a bug though I expect that Klei will fix that. I mean you don't even have to bring a vault access card from day 5 onward currently.

 

did you actually find any Modded Mk I on that run. my experience is that at that point there's mostly Omni guards running aroud.

 

I also think when you have 4 agents you can easily knock out 4 guards and keep them pinned. even on expert plus this shouldn't be a problem since, at that point, you should have the EMP packs (or Xu) to knock out the heart monitors. having Wisp or a TAG pistol for the Omni Harbingers helps a lot too. and when you have every guard taged even the highest alarm level isn't as scary as before.

[0celot]

you could have actually looted the vault. exit cards currently work on vault doors and don't even get used up. I'm pretty sure that's a bug though I expect that Klei will fix that. I mean you don't even have to bring a vault access card from day 5 onward currently.

 

did you actually find any Modded Mk I on that run. my experience is that at that point there's mostly Omni guards running aroud.

 

I also think when you have 4 agents you can easily knock out 4 guards and keep them pinned. even on expert plus this shouldn't be a problem since, at that point, you should have the EMP packs (or Xu) to knock out the heart monitors. having Wisp or a TAG pistol for the Omni Harbingers helps a lot too. and when you have every guard taged even the highest alarm level isn't as scary as before.

Those are some good tips and maybe i'll use my spare exit card for a future vault mission.

My Incognita loadout is: Fusion, Parasite, Datablast, Ping and Knife v.2. It's not terribly efficient as spamming datablasts can be costly (especially with Modulate which increases PWR costs). Don't think I want to give up any of those for Wisp, and Ping has already saved me from a few sticky situations. TAG pistol might be good to have though, maybe i'll put it on my Scout/EMPer (Internationale) or Thief/Trapper (Banks).

You know now that I think about it, can't confirm that there were definitely MK1s running around. I do know that near the end of the run some of the omni protectors woke up with a Lv.10 firewall on em. I figured it mightve been a modded MK1's doing, but can't confirm that i've definitely seen any.

[Spider1011]

hmm. parasite and knife are both low PWR programs. one with a cooldown the other with a time constraint. I'd replace those with stuff like hammer, wrench 4/5 or Lockpick 2.0. at that point in the game portable servers should provide lots of PWR so having ultra efficiency isn't as important anymore. If your serverfarm is big enough I'd even contemplate getting rid of Fusion.

 

afaik Moddeds reboot targets with one firewall level only. this makes Datablast a decent tool to deal with them. you might just have knocked the protector out with Shocktraps or Holocircuit Overloaders, both which ignore armor completely.

the phase were Plastech is extremly dangerous is from ~3-7 where Modded Mk I run rampant. although with the right tools they can be dealt with. the above datablast to recapture preferably with seed or a lethal option (Gun/Hunter) preferable with a way to disable their heart monitors (EMP/Anatomy Analysis). Taurus can also be a way to handle 1-2 knocked out Moddeds.

I'd still rather take FTM or K&O missions because the potential higher cash loot.

 

[0celot]

Great tips. Especially regarding Pre Day 5 Plastech runs. Those were always the bane of my existence and I tried to avoid doing them.

[himmatsj]

Great tips. Especially regarding Pre Day 5 Plastech runs. Those were always the bane of my existence and I tried to avoid doing them.

 

Hmm, I always found Plastech to be easy, for the earlier days. But after day 6, it started becoming dangerous for me.

 

I used Seed + Ping + Lock V2 + Hammer + Daemon decoder.

[NL6]

I'm surprised no one is talking about Oracle in endless. It's perfect from day 5 onward. 4 PWR for a random camera is amazing when firewalls start going past the 3 range. After day 5, you will start spending more than 4 PWR on each camera. In fact, I usually have every camera hacked on the first turn from Day 5 onwards. This is brilliant on Sankaku maps. Just hacking a few random cameras will give you a much better idea of the map layout and may even reveal a vital database to hack (camera, facility, console). From there, you can develop a plan of attack. 

 

After firewall levels reach 5, Oracle will become the cheapest way to hack a camera (besides a buster chip of course). 

[Spider1011]

oracle + seed is awesome for the midgame. but as the number of daemons increases the riskier its use becomes. you're trading early scouting for some random daemons. and imho that's only a good trade if you don't have Hunter or Taurus on your lineup. and even then you can usually ignore some cameras which you'll be triggering if you spam Oracle.

 

the thing is you're leaving yourself at the mercy of the RNG. or rather your exposing yourself to it. in the best case you get some good scouting info and you get through the level faster. but there's only so much you can get. you don't gain anything by finishing before alarm level 3. on the other hand when you trigger e.g 2 blowfish damons or 2 validate daemons you're greatly hindered. so your worst case gets really bad.

I'd rather have a good regular setup that moves at a fast to average pace and deals with problems on the way. I want a setup that helps me deal with worst cases not create more of them.

 

it's similar to the dangerous phase against Plastech. against the other corps guards can cluster too. but cameras on top of a bunch of clustered guards actually make it easier again. having a cluster of Modded Mk Is on top of a cluster of cameras is one hell to deal with. I can get lucky and not as many Modded spawn or they are spread out or there aren't that many cameras around and I'll be fine. but unless I don't have some tools to deal with the worst case I'm not going to tempt fate unless I absolutely have to.

[NL6]

oracle + seed is awesome for the midgame. but as the number of daemons increases the riskier its use becomes. you're trading early scouting for some random daemons

 

Yes, this is a good point. I forgot to mention that I have Central & Brimstone. I LOVE it when daemons are spawned on each camera. I use oracle for free completely and end the first turn with all cameras activated & with max PWR. Honestly, most daemons are worth handling for that. I also have Net Downlink (best augment ever with no downside) on every character, so my whole team starts that round with +6 AP. 

 

The only daemon that gets in the way is paradox. Buster chips & EMPs will help compensate for that.

 

As for leaving myself to the mercy of randomness, that's a good argument but I've adjusted my fulcrum to balance that out. So far, I've been able to handle every situation thrown at me through every endless plus file I've made. Keep in mind that this is a strategy for endless plus day 5 onwards. By that day, your team should have enough items & AP to handle a surprise situation. 

 

But, if you have Nika & enough Stim III, you don't need anything else. Also, keeping around a spare flashbang is a necessity if you're serious about ironman.

[0celot]

oracle + seed is awesome for the midgame. but as the number of daemons increases the riskier its use becomes. you're trading early scouting for some random daemons. and imho that's only a good trade if you don't have Hunter or Taurus on your lineup. and even then you can usually ignore some cameras which you'll be triggering if you spam Oracle.

 

the thing is you're leaving yourself at the mercy of the RNG. or rather your exposing yourself to it. in the best case you get some good scouting info and you get through the level faster. but there's only so much you can get. you don't gain anything by finishing before alarm level 3. on the other hand when you trigger e.g 2 blowfish damons or 2 validate daemons you're greatly hindered. so your worst case gets really bad.

I'd rather have a good regular setup that moves at a fast to average pace and deals with problems on the way. I want a setup that helps me deal with worst cases not create more of them.

 

it's similar to the dangerous phase against Plastech. against the other corps guards can cluster too. but cameras on top of a bunch of clustered guards actually make it easier again. having a cluster of Modded Mk Is on top of a cluster of cameras is one hell to deal with. I can get lucky and not as many Modded spawn or they are spread out or there aren't that many cameras around and I'll be fine. but unless I don't have some tools to deal with the worst case I'm not going to tempt fate unless I absolutely have to.

Validates are no fun, Felixes are even less fun if you still need credits. That said, if worse comes to worse, you could always have 2 door traps at the ready as well as cloaks+overloaders. I tend to try round up as many guards into one area as possible just so I can suppress them all at once with traps and cloaks.

At that point its much less of a stealth game and more of a game about juggling KOs while you methodically clean the place out.

[leonseye]

Great tips. Especially regarding Pre Day 5 Plastech runs. Those were always the bane of my existence and I tried to avoid doing them.

 

I pretty much immediately EMP / Xu Fist MK1s after I KO them, then kill the Daemon w/ Hunter.

 

I feel bad, but MK1s are pretty much a Kill On Sight in most of my games.  The cleanup cost is more than worth saving the headache of wrestling for cameras.

[NL6]

Validates are no fun, Felixes are even less fun if you still need credits. That said, if worse comes to worse, you could always have 2 door traps at the ready as well as cloaks+overloaders. I tend to try round up as many guards into one area as possible just so I can suppress them all at once with traps and cloaks.

 

Felix can be annoying, but not game changing unless you change your behavior to take more risks. Can you resist the urge to get that last dangerous safe? Validates can be damaging early game, but I find as the game progresses, they have less & less impact. I had blowfish 2.0 go off with an alarm multiplier of 3 on a recent level. Alarm level went straight to 6 and 2 of the cameras I hacked had validate. That's around 7 guards spawned on the first turn lol. I was still able to handle it because I had so much vision with the cameras. Ended the map on turn 7. 

 

What map size are you guys playing on? I'm playing on 14-16 and I can put plenty of space between me and a searching guard. Enough space so I don't really have to worry about them ever as long as they are tagged. The smaller the map size you play on, the more crammed it will get in the later stages of endless. I find that maps have a very good balance and guard density at these levels:

 

Rooms: 16

Guards: More

Consoles: More

Safes: More

Daemons: More

KO time: 0

 

If you're playing on endless plus at day 10 with more guards and a rooms size of only 10, it'll be like a hornet's nest. Usually you have no choice but to KO everything and escape. I wish I could scale these options as days went on instead of having them static. (e.g. +1 room size every 2 days) I have a feeling that the scaling that happens each day is separated from the option menu.