Sander Bouwhuis Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I play a custom endless game and I have set the option on to show where camera's and enemies can see (red and yellow markers on the floor).I have come to rely on them, until just now. Please have a look at the screenshots and tell me whether opening the door would be safe. I expected I would be safe, but I was seen the moment I opened the door.Why? PSI used 'Rewind' to go back to this step in order to show you where I started before being seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow86 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The guard on the left was looking your way and you opened the door, clearing the way for his line of sight. I'd say it's highly likely you'd be instantly spotted. The angle is too probably shallow for your hugging against the wall to have any effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sander Bouwhuis Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Ok, I investigated some more. I took over the drone to make sure it wasn't the drone seeing me. It wasn't. Here is what happens when I open the door (see screenshot). How can the pattern of seeing and not seeing look like this? He doesn't see the floor for 2 tiles, then 1 tile he does, then 1 tile he doesn't, then 1 tile he does, then 1 tile he doesn't and then he only notices a tile. How can I possibly reliably predict this? What am I not understanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirsh Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 How can I possibly reliably predict this? What am I not understanding? Now you can keep in mind possible risk in similiar situations, with that new experience. Trials and errors.That guy can't see an agent if he will sit in front of the door, sticking to the locker, but he can clearly see door (or upper part of it) and space behind it.And I'd suggest not to rely on vision indicators in tactic mode, "normal" mode gives more realistic information about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Settemio Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 How can I possibly reliably predict this? What am I not understanding? What makes a square of vision "blocked" comes in two varieties: walls and obstacles. Walls act mostly the way we think vision should act; they block any further sight from the wall on. Also, with the exception that your agents can Peek around them, walls block vision pretty much the same way for you as they do for the corporations. Obstacles never block your agents' vision, but they do block cameras' and guards' vision, but only for the tiles immediately next to them, and only if the guard or camera is on the other side. After that one square, the guard or camera's vision continues normally, just as if there were no obstacles at all. What's happening in this situation is that the obstacle just to the upper left of the square before the door is causing that square to be hidden, but only that square. The fact that the square to the lower left of it is also hidden is because of the obstacles on that square's upper and lower lefts. The square on the other side of the door doesn't have any obstacles next to it it, so the guard sees it. Did that make sense? It's difficult to describe this without using visual examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow86 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The immediate (non-diagonal) vicinity of obstacles creates yellow squares relative to enemy sight, blocking it for your benefit. The door had no such protection. The question is, how did you expect to not be seen standing on that doorframe, by a guard staring almost straight at it? When in doubt, check without an agent in the way. Open the door from the side and see how the enemy LoS changes. That guard will invariably notice the door opening and come investigate, since it's within his cone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sander Bouwhuis Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Thanks for the info guys/girls. 1.When I move my mouse I can see the chair in front of the guard has cover shield icon. So why can he see through the cover? What I do notice now that I look at my own screenshots is that the chair cover has a smaller filled block in the cube than some of the other covers. Does that mean it's a half cover?Sorry if this is stupid, but a tactical game REALLY needs more information. I don't like losing because the rules are unclear. 2.I don't understand the two upper-right-most yellow squares. I would expect the guard to see them too. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Settemio Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Thanks for the info guys/girls. 1.When I move my mouse I can see the chair in front of the guard has cover shield icon. So why can he see through the cover? What I do notice now that I look at my own screenshots is that the chair cover has a smaller filled block in the cube than some of the other covers. Does that mean it's a half cover?Sorry if this is stupid, but a tactical game REALLY needs more information. I don't like losing because the rules are unclear. 2.I don't understand the two upper-right-most yellow squares. I would expect the guard to see them too. Why not?The answer to 1 is that the chair itself is "cover" but the guard can still see past it. The only squares it "covers" are the ones that are immediately next to it, anything further than that is unaffected by the cover. I've edited your image a little to show what a cover object actually covers. Each yellow square now has an arrow pointing to it showing which object is blocking it from view. In some cases, multiple obstacles are shielding the same square; this has no additional effect other than that it could potentially shield that same square from a guard from a different angle, if one wandered into the room. For 2, I'm not as sure. There definitely are examples of cover squares that actually block further than a single space. But I don't think the height of the white cubes in Tactical View mode is actually an indication. Look at the room where your agents are. There is a shaded area behind two of the obstacles in this room where your vision doesn't reach. In normal view, you can see that these two obstacles are actually much taller and act almost as "pillars" of wall in the center of the room. But in the Tactical View, they appear the same height as the object to their lower right, which doesn't make sense because it's shorter and your agents can see right over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Exactly. some objects (pillars, big safes I think) act as a line of sight blockers, but most of them work only of you stand by them (agent hides behind them.) After opening the doors you are noticed because your agent is not hiding behind anything. If you move one tile into the room your agent will hide behind the object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocelost Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 the chair cover has a smaller filled block in the cube than some of the other covers. Does that mean it's a half cover?I don't know what the box size is supposed to indicate, but it looks like the smaller ones are on single-square objects while the larger ones are on objects that occupy multiple squares. Maybe guards can see diagonally between adjacent single-square objects? Sorry if this is stupid, but a tactical game REALLY needs more information. I don't like losing because the rules are unclear.Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Jason Posted June 24, 2015 Developer Share Posted June 24, 2015 Settemio has it right. Each object can cast a blind spot on their sides. If there are no guards on that side looking at that tile, it becomes a blind spot. Blind spots just mean the agent can hide from the guards vision there, not that it blocks their vision past the blind spot. Some of the objects do act like pillars and block vision past them. The Tactical view does not show that. On hindsight, that's something that might be useful to see there. Maybe it can change in a patch. The two blind spots on the upper right are created by the the two objects next to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacovf Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 The mnemonic that I use for doors is, if a guard has any sort of vision (watched/noticed/hidden) on any tile next to the door, he will notice the door opening. This includes if he is standing with his back to the door (since he technically sees the tile he is on). Hidden tiles follow simple (but in practice unintuitive) rules. Objects in a straight orthogonal line from a guard provide blind spots to all three sides farther away from the guard. Any other object provides blind spots to the two sides farther away from the guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sander Bouwhuis Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 @JasonI hope this can be done in the next patch. My mother-in-law also wants to play this game, and it would help if the rules are actually clear. Telling her : "I don't know exactly how it works, you'll just have to guess" is not a convincing way to get her to buy Invisible Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocelost Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 The two blind spots on the upper right are created by the the two objects next to them. Thanks for explaining, Jason. The situation in the screenshots is surprising, since it's totally unrealistic that those two objects would block more of the guard's vision than the door frame does, but at least now we have an explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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