Jessep Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 In my opinion daemons are too numerous and one-dimensional in Update 9 (CYBER TERROIR).What was once a mechanic that added just the right amount of spice to the game is now overshadowing the better, more interesting mechanics. Why do I think that daemons can occasionally be an annoying, even frustrating mechanic? In some levels taking a daemon cannot be avoided. A laser wall with an unreachable on/off switch for example. So, "Just take the daemon, can't be that bad, right?" Well, if it lowers your AP it's pretty damn annoying. Or it installs lots of new daemons. YUCK! But the worst thing ever are the daemons that steal money from your agency. From a game design perspective I can't really see how this is supposed to make the game more interesting. It doesn't make the level harder, it doesn't require you to adjust your strategy, there is no way to think your way around it (sometimes) it just punishes you. It's not a small slap on the wrist either. One daemon took $600 from my agency. What was that word? Yeah, rage-inducing, that's it! Now let's talk about balance. With daemons being so prevalent this patch is there any reason not to take Dr. Xu as starting character? Dunno about you guys but my agency is called Xu & Partner. No exceptions. We really could use more agents that can deal with mainframe devices and daemons. You might say "There are other ways to get around daemons!" True, they are relying on getting the right gear or programs for Incognita though. Something you can't necessarily rely on getting. One other thing: All other obstacles can help your agents if used correctly. Guards can provide money and items, bots energy, security doors and laser barriers restrict guard movement and turrets can be used to destroy enemies. Only daemons have no upside. There is no way to use a daemon to your advantage. Maybe something worth looking into? One idea would be to limit the number of active daemons to 2. A player might decide to first activate a very nasty daemon and then 2 weaker ones to cancel out the first one? Conclusion: In my opinion daemons are the weakest game mechanic in II right now. They are too frequent and vary from ignorable to immensely frustrating and early game you can't tell which is which. Some balance and more depth would be nice. Hope you all have a great weekend. Cheers! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thHorseman Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I agree in general, but I've successfully used the daemon where cracking safes alerts guards, to draw them away. Not as consistent as running or opening a door, but it still works and doesn't cost you any extra movement (after you've triggered the daemon). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphingx Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I have deliberately triggered the daemon that raises firewalls so they would all be at lvl 2 when using wrench 2. I didn't have good luck at server farms and was stuck using wrench 2 and parasite 2... sometimes I get impatient. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessep Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I agree in general, but I've successfully used the daemon where cracking safes alerts guards, to draw them away. Not as consistent as running or opening a door, but it still works and doesn't cost you any extra movement (after you've triggered the daemon).Okay, I can see how that might be useful occasionally. Are we going to see that in your Let's Play? =3 I have deliberately triggered the daemon that raises firewalls so they would all be at lvl 2 when using wrench 2. I didn't have good luck at server farms and was stuck using wrench 2 and parasite 2... sometimes I get impatient.Same as Horseman: Could be useful occasionally. Although I would have to say that I would probably prefer to explore the map a bit more and hack devices a couple of turns later when the alarm level has increased naturally. My thoughts: You probably want to focus certain characters to deal with specific threats. Dr. Xu deals with mainframe devices and bots, Internationale collects power and scouts, Banks opens up more angles of attack... But I don't see anybody who really shines at dealing with daemons. Dr. Xu is obviously your #1 choice but he can just ignore some daemons while he can't touch others. If you have a nasty damon on a nanofab Dr. Xu is just as bad at dealing with it as any other agent. And if you don't have the right upgrades for Incognita that can cost you a lot of money or get somebody killed. I would like an agent who has a specific skill set to turn daemons and use them to your advantage. Alternatively there should be Incognita upgrades that you can get guaranteed access to that allow you to deal with daemons. Or ideally something that makes daemons more interesting in general like the events you can get when you siphon power from consoles or tap a safe. Those can be pretty interesting and fun! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 That might be a good idea. Make Xu not avoid the Deamons, and perhaps a different agent with the ability to deal with deamons. I don't think daemons are that bad. Unless they block your hacking ability for couple turns when you are surrounded by drones.... always have an EMP! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
keypusher Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 You don't really start to see many daemons until after the first few days. By that time you should have hit at least a couple server farms, and found some method to handle them (Sniffer, Taurus, Hunter). Having some kind of tool to handle daemons should be a top priority early on, as they are one of the most dangerous unknows. If you really have made it past the first few server farms and you haven't found any anti-daemon tools, you just have to play it safe around daemons until you do. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolyDeath Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree daemons are just annoying, but there are ways to deal with them. I find null drones to be far worse. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamGreywind Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree daemons are just annoying, but there are ways to deal with them. I find null drones to be far worse. Good lord, Null Drones are a nightmare. Even when you're late in the game, the presence of even a single Null Drone in the wrong place can really mess up a mission. Way more than any Daemon could, in my opinion. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thHorseman Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Okay, I can see how that might be useful occasionally. Are we going to see that in your Let's Play? =3 I'm sure you will. I actually encounter one in the latest episode (6.08) but don't really use it to my advantage. If I'd had one extra turn I think I could have. Steal from those safes in reverse order and then run from the room, the guy would have gone back to the rearmost one and wasted time so Internationale could have gotten away. I may have actually been able to do it but (as I said in the video) I was way off my game that day. I blame recording the entire run in one single sitting. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
syrant Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Daemons are definitely a challenge, and I agree that the daemon that drains your agency's credits isn't great, from a design standpoint. With regards to Dr Xu, I think it's pretty obvious his ability is OP. The only reasons to not use him is 1) you haven't unlocked him or 2) you want the extra challenge (I've done the last few runs without it because I didn't want a pseudo easy mode). I've come to realize that EMPs are a necessary workaround to handle daemons. Server farm missions to buy programs are not guaranteed in each play through, but you'll most likely have access to EMPs (whether it be in vendors, safes, guards, dispatch missions, etc.) Here are some random thoughts: Have an item that breaks daemons. Could be an added feature onto Buster Chips. Could be an item that works like the lock decoder that takes a couple of turns. Could be a new item. Server farm being a random mission makes finding programs that deal with daemon too unreliable (in story mode). Can we have multiple options within a mission site (e.g. pick to go to server farm or dispatch)? Perhaps more mission options overall (e.g. 9 missions spawn at the start) and each has some expiration time to them. Daemons are necessary to keep the game difficulty, but some daemons are just not interesting (lame). Credit drain is lame. How about a daemon that make guards hunt for X turns before going back to normal stations. Daemon that adds 1, 2, and 3 firewalls to random devices (instead of raising all by 1). Daemon that reboots a downed device, and puts it back at 4 firewall (one turn reboot). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-603982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I am doing a double Xu run now, as while trying his archived version I got his normal version from a rescue mission. Some back in time stuff I guess.... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-604145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brapp347 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I also agree that the credit drain daemon sucks. (pun completely unintended) Daemons shouldn't be able to affect something of that level of importance.Here's my daemon ideas: Change all hacked cameras into enemy-owned cameras for x amount of turns. Incognita pwr generators stop giving pwr for x amount of turns. Disable opening/closing doors for x amount of turns. Lock safes/consoles for x amount of turns. Make any previously hacked mainframe device unhacked. So you have to re-hack it. Reduce agent vision. (vision goes a limited distance instead of unlimited) Disable ALL items for 1 turn. Disable augments for x amount of turns. (Sorry, didn't mean for this to turn into a suggestions post ) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-604569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chieftainjoe Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe a cool aspect would be that the daemon "freezes" your account for a couple turns instead of removing it permanently? But this would be a very harmless daemon - yet extremely annoying when it's on the big nanofab and you were just about to go shopping. Apart from that to this whole thread: I think the daemon database" which can be found in deep breath now makes daemons a bit less of a problem, since you can see which daemons you can easily take. On the other hand, i think, daemon sniffer is pretty obsolete in it's current state now, considering how valuable incognita slots are. (And hunter is much more viable now as you can really focus on removing the nasty daemons and don't waste the cooldown for the more harmless ones) But, i must admit, this is all based on my theoretical thoughts, i haven't played that much Deep Breath myself till now. But having another way to somewhat handle daemons is very appreciated Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/49342-daemons-daemons-everywhere/#findComment-604928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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