Recommended endgame skills and weapon for Willow? And to beef or not to beef

[DinsdaleP]

After my disappointing WX-78 run and great Wigfrid one, I'm planning on doing something a bit different and just ******* frying everything with lunar flames. The big question is, what to do when NOT frying. When I did my last Willow run, Shadow Maul wasn't a thing yet, and I was less of an AFW rusher, so didn't even mess around with shadow reaper.

1.) Which weapon and gear layout would you pick for Willow as the end-game choice?

I'm guessing the ideal gear would be Void Cowl and Bone Armor, Enlightened Crown does not play nice with Willow's low sanity playstyle, while you have next to unlimited Nightmare Fuel to keep Bone Armor repaired. But what about weapon choice, is the Shadow Maul worth all the fuss that comes with it, compared to the Shadow Reaper? They do almost the same damage, though the maul does heal at the cost of sanity (but it's Willow, so that's no problem), but it does take a lot of boss kills... though I'll be doing AFW before/in spring, so Moose/Goose will be perfect for that.

Is it worth bothering with the Shadow Maul? Or is it worth spending time on end-game weapons at all, given how much of Willow's damage comes from lunar flames?

2.) To tame a beefalo or ignore it

Willow already has near-infinite NFM to fuel the magi, which gives you 11.7 speed on a road with cane + magi (compared to 12.4 with a rider beef + glossamer saddle), but on the other hand, with the lighter and embers, her inventory space is much more limited compared to someone like WX-78, so I'm leaning towards the beef. Also, opening tumbleweeds with a beefalo and lazy forager is just a fun time.

3.) Accelerant, Hot-Headed, and regen vs extra HP

Everyone seems to mention that Accelerant II is useless, because you can just pick up Bernie, but in my previous run, I've no idea how many times I've forgotten to do that, which was *extremely annoying*, so I'm planning on getting that skill now. Hot-Headed is probably gonna be skipped, because staying below 60 sanity is easy and there's no need for Bernie in lunar areas, but I'm still thinking if I should go with Patch Up II or Tough Stuffing II. Any suggestions?

4.) More of a musing, but why does the shadow flame skill have such a fan club?

I kinda understood it before lunar flames could be aimed, but now, it's just a bit more DPS, which you can safely ignore, given that you could get the same results by spending 5 extra seconds walking backwards when using lunar flames, but you'd still get the AoE effect as an added bonus. I've seen it mentioned multiple times how great it is, and Jakey also praised it to hell and back in his boss run... and I just don't ******* get it.

Any ideas and suggestions are very welcome, I want to make this run a ******* amazing one.

[Mike23Ua]

Should be pretty obvious but: You can’t use the lunar flame skill while riding a Beefalo, AND if you get off your Beefalo and use the skill but the dummy gets in the path, well let’s just say only tame a Beefalo for the Speed Boost if you can’t get a cane.

as for your other questions I’m sorry I can’t answer those.

[Walrusst]

Shadow flame is very good at harvesting farms like the werepig farm where you use a distractor to get all your victims in one place. Makes abundant resources like leather can be used to afford extra sets of armor for an entire team so it really depends on whether or not you want to rapidly dump all your embers on a dps burst on a single strong enemy or if you want to spend them both fighting, and farming monsters hyper efficiently. Well. Lunar flame is better for countering shadow creature teleports.

Fire staff can get decent use on willow early game since last I played bishops were actually scared of being on fire so the most dangerous mechanical enemies you could just suppress with the fire staff then beat to death while they were burning since you could use your ember skills for this but the fire staff has a faster animation, is ember positive, and its not like red gems are that uncommon with bolderboughs existing now. It would be nice if we could recharge it with embers but alas klei seems to be more stubborn about making sure the ice staffs sufficiently buffed instead. Most characters need a red and a blue gem to make a purple gem, somehow you can make purple gems with 1/10th a red one, its magical.

I personally did prefer strong burning damage to bernie however, as I found that his distraction was enough to cluster up enemies that then I could either burn them, or kill everything swarming bernie with a big fat shadow flame. Its clunky, but you have a perfect tool for forcing everyone to form a nice tight circle for that pentakill.

[Pruinae]

I wouldn't use Shadow Mawl on Willow because the mental stack of managing and farming embers is more than enough for me, I don't need the extra stack. Everything else is based on needs, you might even consider a backpack for fighting instead of body armor so you can carry more embers (at least until the embers start to run out).

Embers take soooooooooooooo much inventory space it is not even funny, if you want to use your skills day-to-day you won't be using magi outside of some fights, so beefalo it is. 

Tough Stuffing is good in scenarios where Bernie is bursted down, while Patch Up is better in scenarios where he lasts a while (especially with damage reduction), which scenario are you in more often? Bernie is still extra DPS and a distraction even if he isn't doing anything crazy, so I wouldn't skip Hot Headed.

Lunar Flames are fine but Shadow has better use cases:
Shadow Bernie tanks shadows better.
Some hits are able to cancel Lunar Flames' cast (Fuelweaver bone cage comes to mind).
Combustion makes so you still have AoE even if you choose Shadow Affinity.
If you have a beefalo and need to cast Lunar Flames you would have to dismount to cast it after, which isn't ideal.
As you kind of said, you can still hit the enemy while the Shadow Flames are performing, while you need to finish the Lunar Flames cast to DPS.
Some of the cases where Lunar Flames would seemingly perform better, the Shadow Flames are still able to perform fine if not just as well (the Mac Tusk camp only requires one cast from either to be cleared).

The only scenario I prefer to use Lunar Flames is for Fuelweaver.

[YouKnowWho142]

1 hour ago, DinsdaleP said:

4.) More of a musing, but why does the shadow flame skill have such a fan club?

I kinda understood it before lunar flames could be aimed, but now, it's just a bit more DPS, which you can safely ignore, given that you could get the same results by spending 5 extra seconds walking backwards when using lunar flames, but you'd still get the AoE effect as an added bonus. I've seen it mentioned multiple times how great it is, and Jakey also praised it to hell and back in his boss run... and I just don't ******* get it.

Shadow flames supplement dps while lunar flames interrupts your character. Shadow flames are basically if you casted lunar flames but are still able to attack while casting it, which of course lets your damage skyrocket. The only time where using lunar flame is any better than shadow flames is if youre using it specifically to crowd control. Lunar flames are fine, but they take significantly longer to kill things compared to using an actual weapon and casting shadow flames whenever its off cooldown. Even in situations where lunar flames seem more ideal the shadow flames usually still perform just as well. I think to me personally, since combustion already solves a lot of Willow's crowd control issues, that the crowd control from lunar flames on top of it really isn't necessary and I'd much rather have the high dps of shadow flames instead.

Like mentioned above by other posters, the only real strong use cases for lunar flame over shadow flame are fuelweaver and masses of shadow creatures. I think combustion works just fine in almost every situation where lunar flame would be effective, while costing significantly less embers and usually just creating more embers as well which makes it very resource efficient. None of Willow's other skills can replicate what shadow flames do meanwhile, so I typically prefer to use that. Most people find lunar flames more fun though which is fair enough, just not me

[Walrusst]

I might have reversed things in my post now that I'm remembering things, one moment I've been on haitus for a long time.

[Baark0]

1) Void reaper + cowl is the best pre-scion equipment for most characters aside from the Maul, but the Maul is a pain to maintain and generally not worth the effort if you have other means of healing yourself. If you don't mind the hassle of feeding it and constantly watching its durability to make sure it doesn't break, go for it, otherwise the reaper is plenty good enough. Bone armor is also a no brainer if you're using the cowl, as the only time it actually has competition is after killing Scion, and even then its still great, you just might want the void robe/brightshade armor so you actually have a protection stat while fighting with the crown.

2) Beefalo feel pretty much mandatory to me because of the stupid marble pieces and celestial sanctum pieces, so I will tame one the vast majority of the time I'm playing as someone other than WX, Walter, or Wortox. Its up to your personal preference, however its worth keeping in mind that you wont always have access to a road, so your actual speed is going to be 9, which is considerable slower than a rider beefalo with a glossamer saddle

3) You could drop hot headed if you really wanted to, it's honestly kind of a meh skill. Accelerant is questionable and personally I'd just try and get in the headspace of constantly checking on Bernie, but if you struggle with that a lot it's not the worst use of skill points. As for Hp vs Regen, it depends really. Regen is better if Bernie is alive for long periods of time, while Hp is better if you're dropping multiple Bernies in boss fights. Hp also makes sewing kits more effective, as you get 300-600 bonus health of healing for the same cost. If I had to take an accelerant skill, I'd take the first one along with 1 regen skill, then both tougher stuffing skills. Alternatively you could take both regen 2 and Hp 2 for a super durable Bernie.

4) Shadow Flames is significantly more single target DPS, as you're able to keep attacking while the flames damage whatever your attacking. Lunar flames don't have that ability, plus they can't be cast while riding a beefalo. Overall its up to your personal preference, personally I think lunar flames is way more fun, plus AoE damage is super valuable and I have a hard time giving that up for extra single target damage. The single target damage is very nice though, shadow flames rip bosses apart very quickly.

One last tidbit, but burning frenzy is a pretty mid skill and I wouldn't recommend taking it over fire ball or combustion. You could drop firefighter for it, but then your bee farming isn't as consistent and a handful of bees will frequently survive a combustion spell. It's also completely useless vs a lot of important bosses such as AFW, CC, Scion, Shadow Pieces, and NM Werepig. 

[Cassielu]

Why is it everyone on the forum is pretending as if simplest combat with weapons  in the "endgame" is importance? The DPS requirements are basically limited to the one-time consumption needs of Scion and WARBOT.

I will always recommend using the BS sword and BS helmet, simply because its maintenance is the easiest and it offers the most functionality. It offers 68 damage and sandstorm protection. The BS Husk produce is automatically and Pure Brilliance can be mass-produced at once. Also the BS staff use with the crown  and the Smasher that you will always needused required the same repair kit.

Edited Tuesday at 03:20 AM by Cassielu

[Baark0]

21 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Why is it everyone on the forum is pretending as if simplest combat with weapons  in the "endgame" is importance? The DPS requirements are basically limited to the one-time consumption needs of Scion and WARBOT.

I will always recommend using the BS sword and BS helmet, simply because its maintenance is the easiest and it offers the most functionality. It offers 68 damage and sandstorm protection. The BS Husk produce is automatically and Pure Brilliance can be mass-produced at once. Also the BS staff use with the crown  and the Smasher that you will always needused required the same repair kit.

The faster you end a fight, the less resources you spend on healing armor and weapons. Lunar rifts also take considerably longer before you can properly access their gear, since you need to wait for brightshades to spawn, and that takes anywhere from 12 to 15 days. Dreadstone outcroppings on the other hand are accessible the moment the rift spawns.

It's also just fun doing lots of damage. If you like BS gear, there's nothing wrong with that, the convenience is a genuine point against using shadow gear. For people who don't mind putting in the extra effort, shadow gear is statistically better and as such it appeals to the portion of the community that likes min-maxing their gameplay.

[Cassielu]

2 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

accessible the moment

That word donesn't sound like endgame.

[DinsdaleP]

30 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Why is it everyone on the forum is pretending as if simplest combat with weapons  in the "endgame" is importance? The DPS requirements are basically limited to the one-time consumption needs of Scion and WARBOT.

Ease-of-use in my case. You're perfectly fine with Willow using Ham Bats for the whole game, maybe dropping in Dark Swords or Glass Cutters (bonus damage against shadows), but maintaining most weapons is a pain, and I'm going for AFW, so it's a coin flip between the Shadow Maul or Reaper. Brightshade stuff would also work well, and repair kits for those are ridiculously easy to farm (3 dragonfruit around a magma pool, now you've got husks covered), but the lunar storyline is an absolute pain to complete and takes much longer.

49 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

Shadow Flames is significantly more single target DPS, as you're able to keep attacking while the flames damage whatever your attacking. Lunar flames don't have that ability, plus they can't be cast while riding a beefalo. Overall its up to your personal preference, personally I think lunar flames is way more fun, plus AoE damage is super valuable and I have a hard time giving that up for extra single target damage. The single target damage is very nice though, shadow flames rip bosses apart very quickly.

I've came to the same conclusion basically, with a twist: yeah, lunar flames is lower DPS, but you're basically perfectly safe when casting it if you know what you're doing (well, against most bosses, Klaus will still chomp you), so it doesn't require any more resources, just adds 5 extra seconds to the fight with each casting. With its hilariously powerful AoE nature, I just don't feel like shadow flame is worth it.

Thanks for the rest of the info too, Burning Bernie is something I care little about, it would remove an affinity skill, which are much more useful. Wouldn't the crown with the shard from Scion be kinda counterproductive with Willow? You need sanity below 50% for Bernie, but that sets it to the max.

[YouKnowWho142]

19 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

It's also just fun doing lots of damage. If you like BS gear, there's nothing wrong with that, the convenience is a genuine point against using shadow gear. For people who don't mind putting in the extra effort, shadow gear is statistically better and as such it appeals to the portion of the community that likes min-maxing their gameplay.

The mindset I always use is that brightshade stuff is a lot more flexible while void stuff has more damage. You can easily use the brightshade sword without the helmet, the damage buff isn’t significant enough against non planar enemies that you absolutely need the helmet so you can instead use other head items such as the enlightened crown, bee queen crown, eyebrella, etc if you wanted to. Meanwhile, void is a lot stronger, but the reaper is almost unusable without the void cowl so it’s a bit more rigid how it plays for a higher payoff.

the kits themselves aren’t too big of a factor imo, I think they’re both easy to amass (in fact brightshade kits are in my opinion harder to amass especially early on into rift activation since it’s way easier to farm pure horror than pure brilliance and, more importantly, not as timegated)

Edited Tuesday at 04:02 AM by YouKnowWho142

[Baark0]

51 minutes ago, DinsdaleP said:

Thanks for the rest of the info too, Burning Bernie is something I care little about, it would remove an affinity skill, which are much more useful. Wouldn't the crown with the shard from Scion be kinda counterproductive with Willow? You need sanity below 50% for Bernie, but that sets it to the max.

Burning Bernie is way too costly imo, especially since you have to give up the affinity flames skill, which is arguably Willow's strongest skill. Basically it makes Bernie better at hoards thanks to the thorns damage, but it's not worth the tradeoff of shadow/lunar flames, at least to me.

You're right that the scion crown would make bernie less usable, however that could be somewhat remedied with hot headed if you want to swap to that post-scion. The permanent light and gestalts is really good though and imo is worth at least considering using. It should also be pretty crazy with your shadow/lunar flames skill, as I'm pretty sure each tick of damage will spawn a gestalt.

[ShadowDuelist]

10 hours ago, DinsdaleP said:

why does the shadow flame skill have such a fan club?

I personally like it over lunar flames because it’s harder to interrupt and you can use it while riding a beefalo (I honestly still don’t get why they removed that of lunar flames but w/e). 
Beefalos are hard to kill in the late game, get easy revives, and pair pretty well with the jeweled crown/bs staff for quick bursts of AOE (combined with your own shadow flames).

Jakey focuses his runs on killing as many bosses as fast and efficiently as he can and shadow flame adds a more consistent extra DPS against bosses, since as others mentioned, you can still attack while the shadow strike does its thing.

Lunar flames is a lot more fun and looks way cooler in the early game though. But I think it becomes less efficient in the late game.

Your main AOE against mobs in every day fights should be combustion anyway (way more cost efficient and returns ashes)

[Uedo]

Anything you want but use shadow flames - thx

Also, celestial crown with shadow or lunar armour, doesn't matter much, just make sure it procs gestalts. Biggggg numbers

Edited Tuesday at 04:13 PM by Uedo

[Baark0]

7 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Your main AOE against mobs in every day fights should be combustion anyway (way more cost efficient and returns ashes)

The issue is that this doesn't help vs mobs that are immune to fires and mobs that don't panic from being set on fire. Granted this subset of mobs is limited to pretty much just shadow creatures, however lunar flames does kill hoards significantly faster than waiting for everything to slowly burn to death.

Also, and this is a personal thing, I loathe spiders in this game with every fiber of my being, so I'm going to take Lunar Flames just to make sure these disgusting little miscreants die and get off of my screen as quickly as possible.

[ShadowDuelist]

5 hours ago, Baark0 said:

I'm going to take Lunar Flames just to make sure these disgusting little miscreants die and get off of my screen as quickly as possible.

Lunar flames is one of the most satisfactory skills in the game to kill hoards of annoying enemies.

[BB Marioni]

I actually just tried out a burning bernie build, and I find ot wayyy more comfortable as I don't need to stress myself with ember hunting. We don't boss rush so having the fastest dps build to shave off a couple of seconds to defeat a boss isn't a concern of ours, as long as we defeat bosses with minimal risks and effort, so jot having shadow or lunar flame isnt an issue. I just die a lot less now against inkblights, hordes of enemies, nightmare cycles, splumonkeys, etc with the burning bernie build as honestly a horde of mobs have been waay more dangerous in our experience that a 1v1 with a boss. Specially since some of them can just appear out of nowhere.

[lowercasename]

I really don't like using Bernie if I can help it, and don't really want to take Planar Bernie due to the amount of points needed.
But Planar Protection effectively doubling its health or more (and also more damage) just feels bad to pass up even knowing that.

[DinsdaleP]

16 hours ago, Baark0 said:

Also, and this is a personal thing, I loathe spiders in this game with every fiber of my being, so I'm going to take Lunar Flames just to make sure these disgusting little miscreants die and get off of my screen as quickly as possible.

Great minds think alike, this is part of the reason for lunar flames in my case, too. In my last Wigfrid run, spiders kept messing with every single thing. Doing the moonstone event? Hey, let us break some walls. Oh, you going to lunar island? How about some company. You accidentally hit one of us? Say hello to every spider in the whole goddamn forest.

I think I came up with the final solution, btw: Shadow Maul, Void Cowl and their repair kits are gonna spend most of their time in a bundling wrap, only to be taken out when dealing with bosses, while for everyday use, I'm gonna stick with a Hambat/Tentacle Spike/whatever, along with either a Dreadstone Helmet or a few Battle Helmets, because now you can be the sheriff.