Scrap the Alpha Beta Gamma aspects of Circuits

[DVGMedia]

One of the biggest problems faced by wx with the beta is the fact that you can basically get everything.

Having a set of 7 slots for each kind of ruins the balance of each of the circuits being competitive with each other. Now they are only competitive within their own area. Because the player was free to select everything for each of the 3 circuit boards every single circuit lost value. Either through nerfs or inneffective skill points buffs. 

I think it may honestly be better to reduce the circuit slots from 21 down to 14 but instead make them universal So that way circuits are competitive with each other again. 
This way circuits won't have to be nerfed so hard to compensate having more slots.  And it would actually make some of the skills on the tree change something about the character instead of returning some circuits to a pre nerfed state. 

I think the base aspect of having universal slots for setting up a build with wx would be much a much better format to follow especially with the new body swapping mechanic. 

Gammas also kind of feel like they should just be upgrades of the existing circuits kind of like the alpha beta buffs that exist currently. 
like the nutrient block could be for gastro The panic could be a perk for chorus the sheild perk can be for the health And having the spinning attack be a perk for speed. 

and still kind of keeps the aspect of ha ha funny big number without being too over powered since you have to give up other stats for that. 

Edited April 3 by DVGMedia

[Milordo]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[-Nick-]

The split into alpha, beta, and gamma has been my favorite change so far.

[Ruperstiltskin]

If anything i actually think the 3 different circuits board was the best change so far in the beta. I played a lot of wx with a mod that lets you have 12 circuits slots and i found myselft with beanbooster, speed and some light circuit always on, only changing the last 3/4 circuits for different seasons and such, i found it pretty boring tbh.
Now as people have said, the problem is we dont really got much going on in each board, alpha are just stats and the options are full hp and regen, or 1 of each status circuit. Maybe change speed circuit to alpha as well to put more restrain in there, i just feel since they made 3 separate categories we needed more circuits overall in all of them tbh

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, -Nick- said:

The split into alpha, beta, and gamma has been my favorite change so far.

it good but I don't think its worth sacrificing so much to make it work. 
Alot of the changes to make things more interesting are basically reverted because we have access to everything right off the bat. its the ability to be able to use everything thats the problem. We need a restriction.

This case is a less is more situation. having universals would give you way more options for build variety even though the player has less to play with. 

[-Nick-]

1 minute ago, Ruperstiltskin said:

Maybe change speed circuit to alpha as well to put more restrain in there, i just feel since they made 3 separate categories we needed more circuits overall in all of them tbh

Moving speed to Alpha might be the best idea actually! Would give some competitiveness with the stat circuits! 

[Jussatoon]

5 minutes ago, Ruperstiltskin said:

If anything i actually think the 3 different circuits board was the best change so far in the beta. I played a lot of wx with a mod that lets you have 12 circuits slots and i found myselft with beanbooster, speed and some light circuit always on, only changing the last 3/4 circuits for different seasons and such, i found it pretty boring tbh.
Now as people have said, the problem is we dont really got much going on in each board, alpha are just stats and the options are full hp and regen, or 1 of each status circuit. Maybe change speed circuit to alpha as well to put more restrain in there, i just feel since they made 3 separate categories we needed more circuits overall in all of them tbh

 

2 minutes ago, -Nick- said:

Moving speed to Alpha might be the best idea actually! Would give some competitiveness with the stat circuits! 

This would mean you could theoretically have max speed,  as well as any combination of the other Beta circuits, at the same time; would you consider that balanced, if it means that all stats pretty much remain at 100?

[-Nick-]

7 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

it good but I don't think its worth sacrificing so much to make it work. 
Alot of the changes to make things more interesting are basically reverted because we have access to everything right off the bat. its the ability to be able to use everything thats the problem. We need a restriction.

This case is a less is more situation. having universals would give you way more options for build variety even though the player has less to play with. 

I felt the new system was a more creative way to add more circuit slots than just well adding more circuit slots. I have been swapping circuits a lot more and having more fun than the old system. 

Well I do agree the new system can bring issues but scrapping the entire thing for the old system when things have been built for the new is a bad idea. I will have to think more on this to formulate my thoughts better. I just don't really see your angle honestly.

 

Edited April 3 by -Nick-

[Ruperstiltskin]

2 minutes ago, Jussatoon said:

This would mean you could theoretically have max speed,  as well as any combination of the other Beta circuits, at the same time; would you consider that balanced, if it means that all stats pretty much remain at 100?

Why not? We already have some glass canons in combat, why not a glass canon kinda in a qol way?

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, Ruperstiltskin said:

Why not? We already have some glass canons in combat, why not a glass canon kinda in a qol way?

How would it make WX a glass cannon? the only thing WX gets related to damage is the electric circuit which requires getting hit. Otherwise WX is bottom 3 for lowest damage in the game

at that point WX is just glass, I feel like the term glass cannon is super misunderstood

[Jussatoon]

1 minute ago, Ruperstiltskin said:

Why not? We already have some glass canons in combat, why not a glass canon kinda in a qol way?

"Glass cannons", because the characters you're probably referring to being glass cannons is debatable, according to some people, but I get what you're saying; I wouldn't have a problem with it personally. 

[Seero]

I completely disagree

[DVGMedia]

13 minutes ago, -Nick- said:

I felt the new system was a more creative way to add more circuit slots than just well adding more circuit slots. I have been swapping circuits a lot more and having more fun than the old system. 

Well I do agree the new system can bring issues but scrapping the entire thing for the old system when things have been built for the new is a bad idea. I will have to think more on this to formulate my thoughts better. I just don't really see your angle honestly.

 

thing is though my suggestion basically still gives you the same system but with more freedom.  Especially if thats what they want the gamma circuits to be. I feel like the gammas should instead be the bonus upgrades for the other circuits via the alpha and beta buff skills on the tree. 

Edited April 3 by DVGMedia

[Evelo]

They've put too much work into this to simply remove it. I like the ABG circuits, I think we need more of them. The nerfs aren't bad imo, WX still seems more powerful than most character. Even before the Skill Tree I thought that. There are still plenty of options within each category that makes each slot competitive in its own right. With the current exception of Gamma. For Alpha I will be leaning more on Hunger with a splash of sanity and health. For Beta I plan on rocking a few Infinite Storage slots with either night vision or light. For Gamma... well Nutribrick reigns supreme atm, and will continue to unless controls change.

The nerfs themselves feel welcome and I enjoy wrangling them to be more inline with other characters (post skill tree). I would like to see more Alpha and Beta circuits as well. I did like the idea of moving the acceleration circuit to alpha since that is adjusting a base stat (movement). Seems fair.

Edited April 3 by Evelo

[YouKnowWho142]

i think in general adding just 14 universal slots causes the complete opposite problem and just stales variety. This ABG split seems like Klei's way of promoting circuit variety while also preventing you from stacking too many circuits from any one category, since the last thing we needed was WX running 7 speed circuits.

Edited April 3 by YouKnowWho142

[DVGMedia]

9 minutes ago, Evelo said:

They've put too much work into this to simply remove it. I like the ABG circuits, I think we need more of them. The nerfs aren't bad imo, WX still seems more powerful than most character. Even before the Skill Tree I thought that. There are still plenty of options within each category that makes each slot competitive in its own right. With the current exception of Gamma. For Alpha I will be leaning more on Hunger with a splash of sanity and health. For Beta I plan on rocking a few Infinite Storage slots with either night vision or light. For Gamma... well Nutribrick reigns supreme atm, and will continue to unless controls change.

The nerfs themselves feel welcome and I enjoy wrangling them to be more inline with other characters (post skill tree).

I mean they have scrapped stuff before with way more work into it. I don't think thats really a signifier.

I feel like this is an actual good thing to go for though cause it takes the best parts of wx and adds more to him which is what people wanted.

My suggesting basically does this.
Makes gammas become alpha and beta buffs. 
while also allowing for absurd stacking via universal slots. 
of course there will be adjustments maybe adding diminishing returns like how the speed circuit already has..  But with gammas being a part of the original stat upgrades it would make each circuit more valuable to be in competition with others. Making it actually difficult to choose what the player wants to use. 

Edited April 3 by DVGMedia

[Cassielu]

That's not a healthy competitive. We all know very well that hardly any WX players would give up beta circuits to use the health, sanity or hunger circuits. This has been well demonstrated by the reworked WX in the past few years.

[DVGMedia]

2 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

That's not a healthy competitive. We all know very well that hardly any WX players would give up beta circuits to use the health, sanity or hunger circuits. This has been well demonstrated by the reworked WX in the past few years.

thats why im suggesting gammas become part of the alphas.

[The_UrbanGoose8]

43 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

One of the biggest problems faced by wx with the beta is the fact that you can basically get everything.

Having a set of 7 slots for each kind of ruins the balance of each of the circuits being competitive with each other. Now they are only competitive within their own area. Because the player was free to select everything for each of the 3 circuit boards every single circuit lost value. Either through nerfs or inneffective skill points buffs. 

I think it may honestly be better to reduce the circuit slots from 21 down to 14 but instead make them universal So that way circuits are competitive with each other again. 
This way circuits won't have to be nerfed so hard to compensate having more slots.  And it would actually make some of the skills on the tree change something about the character instead of returning some circuits to a pre nerfed state. 

I think the base aspect of having universal slots for setting up a build with wx would be much a much better format to follow especially with the new body swapping mechanic. 

Gammas also kind of feel like they should just be upgrades of the existing circuits kind of like the alpha beta buffs that exist currently. 
like the nutrient block could be for gastro The panic could be a perk for chorus the shield perk can be for the health And having the spinning attack be a perk for speed. 

and still kind of keeps the aspect of ha ha funny big number without being too over powered since you have to give up other stats for that. 

really showing whos full of themself 
 

"you can get everything" is only a problem if the circuits themselves are overtuned. If the game is balanced around you having all of them, then full access isn't broken — it's just how WX works. The issue is tuning, not slot count.

The whole "circuits aren't competing with each other anymore" point also doesn't really hold up. Most circuits don't even do the same thing. Speed, health, and gastro solve completely different problems — they were never really competing to begin with. And forcing them to compete by cutting slots doesn't create interesting decisions, it just means you're punished for wanting a well-rounded build. 

The 14 universal slot idea is actually where things get worse, not better. If everything goes into one pool, people are just going to figure out the 14 strongest circuits and run those every time. The three-board system at least guarantees that circuits from different categories all see play. Collapse it into one pool and half the roster becomes dead weight.

The nerf argument also has the causality backwards. Circuits got nerfed because they were overtuned, not because there were too many slots. Cutting slots doesn't fix an overtuned circuit, it just means fewer of them are running at once. You'd still need the same nerfs either way.

The one thing the argument actually gets right is skill nodes that exist just to undo nerfs. That genuinely is bad design. spending a skill point to get back to where you already were isn't an upgrade, it's a correction. That's worth criticizing. But that's a problem with how the skill tree is written, not with how many slots there are.

 

 

Edited April 3 by The_UrbanGoose8

[reddocc]

I still talk about you and I miss you

[ZeRoboButler]

I guess there could be some potential for super silly stats, but I'm not sold on the idea.

[Baark0]

Scrapping the main mechanic of the skill tree would mean that Klei would have to entirely rework 6 skills, and I feel like it might be a bit too late into the skill tree's development cycle for a change as drastic as that, and frankly I'd prefer if Klei spent that time touching up the weaker parts of the current skill tree. I also feel like 14 universal slots would cause a lot of players to just min-max a certain stat, most likely speed. Even if each circuit after the 3rd only gave 5% speed, that'd still be an extra 20% speed.

Not to mention how so many of the new circuits they've added would never see any usage without dedicated slots for them. Who honestly is going to use the storage circuit, the illuminant circuits, the range circuit, the electric circuit, or any of the new gamma circuits over night vision, speed, and whatever stats someone might want. Sure you'd technically have the option for more variety, but why would you bother when there's just better circuits you can use instead.

1 minute ago, DVGMedia said:

I mean they have scrapped stuff before with way more work into it. I don't think thats really a signifier.

The last time they scrapped a large amount of skills, it ended up delaying the skill tree by like 3-4 months, and I'd like to actually play with the new WX sometime relatively soon rather than waiting a quarter of a year for their skill tree to finally release, at which point I'd have probably lost all interest I had in it.

[DVGMedia]

9 minutes ago, The_UrbanGoose8 said:

really showing whos full of themself 
 

"you can get everything" is only a problem if the circuits themselves are overtuned. If the game is balanced around you having all of them, then full access isn't broken — it's just how WX works. The issue is tuning, not slot count.

The whole "circuits aren't competing with each other anymore" point also doesn't really hold up. Most circuits don't even do the same thing. Speed, health, and gastro solve completely different problems — they were never really competing to begin with. And forcing them to compete by cutting slots doesn't create interesting decisions, it just means you're punished for wanting a well-rounded build. 

The 14 universal slot idea is actually where things get worse, not better. If everything goes into one pool, people are just going to figure out the 14 strongest circuits and run those every time. The three-board system at least guarantees that circuits from different categories all see play. Collapse it into one pool and half the roster becomes dead weight.

The nerf argument also has the causality backwards. Circuits got nerfed because they were overtuned, not because there were too many slots. Cutting slots doesn't fix an overtuned circuit, it just means fewer of them are running at once. You'd still need the same nerfs either way.

The one thing the argument actually gets right is skill nodes that exist just to undo nerfs. That genuinely is bad design. spending a skill point to get back to where you already were isn't an upgrade, it's a correction. That's worth criticizing. But that's a problem with how the skill tree is written, not with how many slots there are.

 

 

Thing is there is no doubt that people would do that. But im literally giving you the same thing we have now except without gammas. 
explain yourself then what are the 14 strongest circuits?
you think that everyone really is going to run that? Cause i think having gammas merged with the others via skill tree would give a lot of good choice. 

I want people to use absurd builds thats the whole point of wx. having the capability of being the best at 1 thing if they so choose. 
thats why its important to look at diminishing returns as a way of balance rather than adjusting the flat numbers of each circuit. 

4 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

Scrapping the main mechanic of the skill tree would mean that Klei would have to entirely rework 6 skills,

But its not part of the tree? Its base kit remember. 
All it would remove is the gamma And alpha and beta just become stats vs utility literally just name changes. 

4 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

Not to mention how so many of the new circuits they've added would never see any usage without dedicated slots for them. Who honestly is going to use the storage circuit, the illuminant circuits, the range circuit, the electric circuit,

Thats also the point of the bodies? Everything has thier own usage.  you are telling me that these will only be used cause they are ehh i can fit them in. Each have their own really fun interaction. 
cause like i can imagine a speed wx with  the whirl wind axe or pick axe becoming basically a deforester being able to collect and harvest everything without stopping. there are so many possiblities that can be done. 
The stuff that klei has made does work. It just needs to be put in the right place.

 

Edited April 3 by DVGMedia

[The_UrbanGoose8]

8 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

Thing is there is no doubt that people would do that. But im literally giving you the same thing we have now except without gammas. 
explain yourself then what are the 14 strongest circuits?
you think that everyone really is going to run that? Cause i think having gammas merged with the others via skill tree would give a lot of good choice. 

I want people to use absurd builds thats the whole point of wx. having the capability of being the best at 1 thing if they so choose. 
thats why its important to look at diminishing returns as a way of balance rather than adjusting the flat numbers of each circuit. 

But its not part of the tree? Its base kit remember. 
All it would remove is the gamma And alpha and beta just become stats vs utility literally just name changes. 

Thats also the point of the bodies? Everything has thier own usage.  you are telling me that these will only be used cause they are ehh i can fit them in. Each have their own really fun interaction. 
cause like i can imagine a speed wx with  the whirl wind axe or pick axe becoming basically a deforester being able to collect and harvest everything without stopping. there are so many possiblities that can be done. 
The stuff that klei has made does work. It just needs to be put in the right place.

 

 

"Explain yourself, what are the 14 strongest circuits?"

This is deflection dressed up as a challenge. You don't need to list them to prove the point  the argument is about player behavior, not circuit rankings. The moment any community figures out an optimal 14, which they always do, that becomes the default. It happens in every game with a build system. Asking "which 14?" doesn't disprove that convergence happens, it just avoids engaging with why it would.

"I'm giving you the same thing we have now except without gammas"

No you aren't. Right now each board has dedicated slots, meaning circuits from different categories are guaranteed representation in any build. Collapsing to universal slots removes that guarantee entirely. A player could fill all 14 with combat and utility circuits and never touch gastro once. That's structurally different from what exists now, not the same thing with gammas removed.

"Diminishing returns as balance instead of flat number adjustments"

This is actually an interesting idea, but it's being presented as if it solves the problem the proposal creates. Diminishing returns would need to be designed around a specific slot structure. You can't just say "use diminishing returns" without specifying how they'd scale, at what thresholds, and whether they'd apply per circuit type or per slot. This is a concept, not a solution. Back it up with specifics. and explain player understanding IN game.

"Gammas aren't part of the skill tree, they're base kit"

This is  true but it sidesteps the actual point being made. The criticism was that merging gammas into the skill tree via upgrades creates mandatory pairings and removes flexibility. Whether gammas are currently base kit or not doesn't address that. The question is what happens to build freedom when a gamma is locked behind running its paired base circuit. That question still hasn't been answered.

"These circuits will only see use because 'eh I can fit them in'"

That's actually how healthy build variety works. Niche circuits getting played because there's room for them is better than niche circuits never getting played because they lost a slot competition. The storage circuit, the illuminant circuit, the range circuit. these exist to enable specific playstyles. The three-board system creates space for them. A universal pool punishes them because they'll always lose to stronger generalist picks.

"A speed WX with the whirlwind axe becoming a deforester"

That specific example actually works fine under the current system too. Nothing about the existing slot structure prevents that build. So this isn't an argument for universal slots, it's just an example of WX being fun, which nobody is disagreeing with.

"The stuff Klei made does work, it just needs to be put in the right place"

This is the first genuinely useful thing said in the reply, and it actually argues against the proposal. If the circuits work and just need better placement, then the fix is refining the existing system, not restructuring the slot architecture entirely. You can't say the foundation is good and then propose tearing it up in the same breath.

The core problem with this reply is that it keeps asserting things without supporting them. Diminishing returns as a balance tool.. how exactly? Gammas merged into the tree giving more choice  how does that work mechanically without forcing pairings? Universal slots enabling absurd builds..which builds, specifically, that the current system blocks? These are the questions that need real answers, not vibes and hypotheticals.

[Duckguy]

I actually quite like the chance BECAUSE circuits don't have to compete agents each other, promoting more unique builds that aren't a speed boost and night vision 

 

I do have to agree, I find myself not knowing what I should slot in

Edited April 3 by Duckguy