The weapon system needs improvement

[WilsonHiggs]

3 hours ago, Sikers said:

You don't have to craft all at once but you need at least 9 just to take down Dragonfly

I doubt they are talking about using it as a main weapon like the maul

[Sikers]

13 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I doubt they are talking about using it as a main weapon like the maul

They literally called it an alternative to the hambat

Edited May 9, 2025 by Sikers

[Hungry French]

On 08.05.2025 at 15:55, Ryusuta said:

Я не говорил, что они были. Я просто имею в виду направление, в котором они развиваются с точки зрения философии дизайна. Это создаёт прецедент: «С этого момента наш способ усложнить игру будет заключаться в том, чтобы накладывать на предметы сопротивление урону и на этом заканчивать».

Это похоже на направление, в котором они начали использовать конечных боссов в The Binding of Isaac в более поздних итерациях. (Я знаю ... разные типы игр, но это самая близкая аналогия, которую я смог придумать.) Они решили, что способ повысить ставки в битвах с боссами - это дать им механику брони, которая означает, что они будут получать все меньше и меньше урона, если будут сильно повреждены за короткий промежуток времени, но были такие вещи, как взрывы, которые обходили эту броню стороной.

Теоретически это способ повысить сложность задачи, но на практике это просто замедлило процесс и сделало его более утомительным. Это не избавило от прерывистых пробежек; это просто изменило ингредиенты, используемые для прерывания пробежек. В результате, некоторые из наименее популярных боссов, с которыми игроки сражаются, - это боссы с этой механикой.

Короче говоря, это скучно.

Bro. In Isaac, this is necessary so that bosses are not killed in 2 seconds due to incredible luck. 
In DST, all bosses initially have a huge level of health. And the protection of Bearger, Deerclops and Varg cannot compare with the insane amount of hp from Toadstool, Dragonfly, Bee Queen, etc. Planar  protection is needed so that Klei does not release the garbage items again.

[Cheggf]

14 hours ago, Sikers said:

Beside, it's not like the post-Rift content killed weapon and armor variety, because the game never realy have it, back then most people just used Hambats, Night Swords and Football Helmets, new gear just replaced them.

Most people who play Don't Starve suck and never use anything except what a clickbait YouTuber told them is meta because most people who play every videogame suck and never use anything except what a clickbait YouTuber told them is meta. Everybody in Hunt uses long ammo then gets owned by my compact ammo. Everybody in Fortnite uses auto shotties then gets owned by my pump. Everybody in Sea of Thieves uses a blunderbuss & eye of reach then gets owned by my cutlass & double barrel.

There is a ton of weapon variety if you're smart enough to actually engage with the game's mechanics instead of just following the script a YouTuber told you to do in his How To Survive Your First Winter video or whatever. I frequently use axes, spears, thulecite clubs, tentacle spikes, the shield of terror, and bat bats, and I'm this close to frequently using morning stars & glass cutters. Your list of things that "everybody uses", ham bats and football helmets, I almost never use. Football helmets suck, and ham bats I might make for a boss fight or something, but most of the time I'm not using either of those. I use football helmets about as often as I use grass suits, and I use ham bats about as often as I use flint axes.

My experience is completely different to yours. I'm running around in some combination of snurtle shell, bone armor, thulecite suit, log suit, shelmet, thulecite crown, dark sword, shield of terror, tentacle spike, or bat bat, and you're running around in a football helmet with a ham bat. We are completely different people. Then the Rifts open up, and we are identical twins. We are both using the brightshade sword, and we are both using the brightshade armor. We even look the same since that ugly armor covers everything up. 

[WilsonHiggs]

13 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Most people who play Don't Starve suck and never use anything except what a clickbait YouTuber told them is meta because most people who play every videogame suck and never use anything except what a clickbait YouTuber told them is meta. Everybody in Hunt uses long ammo then gets owned by my compact ammo. Everybody in Fortnite uses auto shotties then gets owned by my pump. Everybody in Sea of Thieves uses a blunderbuss & eye of reach then gets owned by my cutlass & double barrel.

There is a ton of weapon variety if you're smart enough to actually engage with the game's mechanics instead of just following the script a YouTuber told you to do in his How To Survive Your First Winter video or whatever. I frequently use axes, spears, thulecite clubs, tentacle spikes, the shield of terror, and bat bats, and I'm this close to frequently using morning stars & glass cutters. Your list of things that "everybody uses", ham bats and football helmets, I almost never use. Football helmets suck, and ham bats I might make for a boss fight or something, but most of the time I'm not using either of those. I use football helmets about as often as I use grass suits, and I use ham bats about as often as I use flint axes.

My experience is completely different to yours. I'm running around in some combination of snurtle shell, bone armor, thulecite suit, log suit, shelmet, thulecite crown, dark sword, shield of terror, tentacle spike, or bat bat, and you're running around in a football helmet with a ham bat. We are completely different people. Then the Rifts open up, and we are identical twins. We are both using the brightshade sword, and we are both using the brightshade armor. We even look the same since that ugly armor covers everything up. 

Funny enough, few time ago I realized that in my +5500 days world I never prototyped a football helmet despite rushing the ruins and bosses in it

[Ryusuta]

On 5/9/2025 at 3:08 PM, Hungry French said:

Bro. In Isaac, this is necessary so that bosses are not killed in 2 seconds due to incredible luck. 
In DST, all bosses initially have a huge level of health. And the protection of Bearger, Deerclops and Varg cannot compare with the insane amount of hp from Toadstool, Dragonfly, Bee Queen, etc. Planar  protection is needed so that Klei does not release the garbage items again.

It's a band-aid solution. It's the easy way out to PRETEND you're making a fight more interesting and challenging when the only thing you're actually doing is making it slower.

Making bosses have a ton of resistances gives the illusion of challenge without actually addressing core issues.

Edited May 11, 2025 by Ryusuta

[AliceShiki]

8 hours ago, Ryusuta said:

It's a band-aid solution. It's the easy way out to PRETEND you're making a fight more interesting and challenging when the only thing you're actually doing is making it slower.

Making bosses have a ton of resistances gives the illusion of challenge without actually addressing core issues.

If you kill a boss in 2s with Lost, it's a lot easier to win than if you kill it in 2min.

Of course making the fight slower makes it harder, what are you talking about? Especially with Lost, Tainted Lost, Keeper and Tainted Keeper, who can't be hit much before dying.

I remember finding Mega **** really easy back in Afterbirth because it just kinda died. When Repentance was released I bought it and Afterbirth+ and was suddenly confused by how much I was struggling with Mega **** then... Then I looked it up in the wiki and saw that Mega **** had Armor added to him, so now I needed to actually engage with his hard patterns, instead of killing him too fast for me to care about them.

Isaac has its fair share of hard bosses, but if you have enough firepower to melt them, then they just die. Armor simply forces you to actually interact with their mechanics, which naturally makes them much harder.

... Unless your firepower is really really high that is. Bosses with Armor can still melt to enough firepower.

Edit: Klei forums automatically censored the boss name. I'm talking about the boss you need both keys to fight.

Edited May 11, 2025 by AliceShiki

[WilsonHiggs]

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

If you kill a boss in 2s with Lost, it's a lot easier to win than if you kill it in 2min.

Of course making the fight slower makes it harder, what are you talking about? Especially with Lost, Tainted Lost, Keeper and Tainted Keeper, who can't be hit much before dying.

I remember finding Mega **** really easy back in Afterbirth because it just kinda died. When Repentance was released I bought it and Afterbirth+ and was suddenly confused by how much I was struggling with Mega **** then... Then I looked it up in the wiki and saw that Mega **** had Armor added to him, so now I needed to actually engage with his hard patterns, instead of killing him too fast for me to care about them.

Isaac has its fair share of hard bosses, but if you have enough firepower to melt them, then they just die. Armor simply forces you to actually interact with their mechanics, which naturally makes them much harder.

... Unless your firepower is really really high that is. Bosses with Armor can still melt to enough firepower.

Edit: Klei forums automatically censored the boss name. I'm talking about the boss you need both keys to fight.

Srsly s@tan is censored in this web? Lmao

[Hungry French]

11 hours ago, Ryusuta said:

Это временное решение. Это лёгкий способ притвориться, что вы делаете бой более интересным и сложным, когда на самом деле вы просто замедляете его.

Если у боссов будет много сопротивлений, это создаст иллюзию сложности, но не решит основные проблемы.

It's much easier to just make an absurd hp figure for a boss than an entire armor system.
In DST, if it is needed, it is only in the team.

[AliceShiki]

2 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Srsly s@tan is censored in this web? Lmao

I was honestly surprised, but... Tbf, it's not like DST has any boss where the name comes up, so it wouldn't naturally come up in a discussion.

Banning a random evil being from a religion is far from the worst word ban. it was just kinda funny to see the auto-censor appear him when I was talking about a Binding of Isaac boss! xD

[readkey]

On 5/10/2025 at 7:24 AM, Cheggf said:

Most people who play Don't Starve suck and never use anything except what a clickbait YouTuber told them is meta because most people who play every videogame suck and never use anything except what a clickbait YouTuber told them is meta. Everybody in Hunt uses long ammo then gets owned by my compact ammo. Everybody in Fortnite uses auto shotties then gets owned by my pump. Everybody in Sea of Thieves uses a blunderbuss & eye of reach then gets owned by my cutlass & double barrel.

There is a ton of weapon variety if you're smart enough to actually engage with the game's mechanics instead of just following the script a YouTuber told you to do in his How To Survive Your First Winter video or whatever. I frequently use axes, spears, thulecite clubs, tentacle spikes, the shield of terror, and bat bats, and I'm this close to frequently using morning stars & glass cutters. Your list of things that "everybody uses", ham bats and football helmets, I almost never use. Football helmets suck, and ham bats I might make for a boss fight or something, but most of the time I'm not using either of those. I use football helmets about as often as I use grass suits, and I use ham bats about as often as I use flint axes.

My experience is completely different to yours. I'm running around in some combination of snurtle shell, bone armor, thulecite suit, log suit, shelmet, thulecite crown, dark sword, shield of terror, tentacle spike, or bat bat, and you're running around in a football helmet with a ham bat. We are completely different people. Then the Rifts open up, and we are identical twins. We are both using the brightshade sword, and we are both using the brightshade armor. We even look the same since that ugly armor covers everything up. 

I am curious on what armor do you use instead of football helmet. I think I am the opposite: I use it until post-rift. Somehow I just never want to break a single thulecite crown. 
 

That said, I agree your opinion on the weapon that most weapons have their usage in the game. Hambat is great and all, but for long travel like mapping  the sea, it is better to grab a weapon that does not spoil. That’s why I always disagree what people said about Wigfrid’s spear. It is excellent and very convenient if you need to leave base for like 10 days. The only one I don’t use a lot aside from the whip (it is hardly a weapon) is probably Morning Star because I just don’t bother to farm it. 

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, readkey said:

I am curious on what armor do you use instead of football helmet. I think I am the opposite: I use it until post-rift. Somehow I just never want to break a single thulecite crown. 

You can have a tier list of armor based on how likely I am to use it. This tier list was sponsored by Manscaped, Audible, Audacity, ummm Oldschool Runescape, and, um... Mega Man 8-Bit Deathmatch. Tiers are unordered.

S+: Thulecite suit

S: Nothing! The orange t shirt reigns supreme by such a large margin that this tier is empty!

A: Thulecite crown, shellmet, bramble husk

B: Dreadstone armor, dreadstone helmet, snurtle shell armor

C: Night armor

D: Log suit, grass suit, hardwood hat, football helmet, cookie cutter cap, battle helm, shield of terror

F: Marble suit, scalemail, beekeeper hat, eye mask

9 hours ago, readkey said:

That said, I agree your opinion on the weapon that most weapons have their usage in the game. Hambat is great and all, but for long travel like mapping  the sea, it is better to grab a weapon that does not spoil. That’s why I always disagree what people said about Wigfrid’s spear. It is excellent and very convenient if you need to leave base for like 10 days. The only one I don’t use a lot aside from the whip (it is hardly a weapon) is probably Morning Star because I just don’t bother to farm it. 

Yeah Wigfrid's spears are really good. They have more than enough damage for everything, the only scenario where you might want to swap them out is a boss fight. Most of the time you aren't fighting a boss, so most of the time Wigfrid's spears are arguably BIS. Morning stars can also be really good, especially with them emitting light on their own, but they are a bit awkward to make so I usually don't. 

[SpookyXy]

On 5/12/2025 at 2:58 PM, Cheggf said:

You can have a tier list of armor based on how likely I am to use it. This tier list was sponsored by Manscaped, Audible, Audacity, ummm Oldschool Runescape, and, um... Mega Man 8-Bit Deathmatch. Tiers are unordered.

S+: Thulecite suit

S: Nothing! The orange t shirt reigns supreme by such a large margin that this tier is empty!

A: Thulecite crown, shellmet, bramble husk

B: Dreadstone armor, dreadstone helmet, snurtle shell armor

C: Night armor

D: Log suit, grass suit, hardwood hat, football helmet, cookie cutter cap, battle helm, shield of terror

F: Marble suit, scalemail, beekeeper hat, eye mask

Yeah Wigfrid's spears are really good. They have more than enough damage for everything, the only scenario where you might want to swap them out is a boss fight. Most of the time you aren't fighting a boss, so most of the time Wigfrid's spears are arguably BIS. Morning stars can also be really good, especially with them emitting light on their own, but they are a bit awkward to make so I usually don't. 

Your armour list is great evidence for why most people only use log suits and football helmets. Every option C tier and above (over than nothing at all) is either character specific, requires you to go through the ruins or has a super low drop rate to aquire. Their barrier to entry is much higher than football helmets/log suits which can be crafted day 1 and the average dst player will never even see most of them.

I dont know how you can blame them for getting all their opinions from youtube videos and then expect them to just craft thulecite crowns/suits instead. If you're good enough at the game that you're regularly fighting with no armour, you're on a very different level from the average player.

[Cheggf]

5 minutes ago, SpookyXy said:

Your armour list is great evidence for why most people only use log suits and football helmets. Every option C tier and above (over than nothing at all) is either character specific, requires you to go through the ruins or has a super low drop rate to aquire. Their barrier to entry is much higher than football helmets/log suits which can be crafted day 1 and the average dst player will never even see most of them.

I dont know how you can blame them for getting all their opinions from youtube videos and then expect them to just craft thulecite crowns/suits instead. If you're good enough at the game that you're regularly fighting with no armour, you're on a very different level from the average player.

The mysterious player who's killing Celestial Champion & Ancient Fuelweaver to unlock the rifts but is too scared to fight shadows or go into the ruins. 

[SpookyXy]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

The mysterious player who's killing Celestial Champion & Ancient Fuelweaver to unlock the rifts but is too scared to fight shadows or go into the ruins. 

When did I say the average player was unlocking rifts?

[Cheggf]

Just now, SpookyXy said:

When did I say the average player was unlocking rifts?

Do you not read comments in a thread and just jump to the latest one single comment and read that without reading what it's replying to? The conversation is about rifts. Almost every comment here is about rifts, lol.

[SpookyXy]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Do you not read comments in a thread and just jump to the latest one single comment and read that without reading what it's replying to? The conversation is about rifts. Almost every comment here is about rifts, lol.

I read the thread, I know what it's about. I was only commenting on your armour tier list. I read your earlier comment on the weapon variety in the game and combined with your tier list of what you usually use it just seemed unrealistic. You're good enough at the game you can use whatever you want, most players would struggle a lot more if they did that.

[Cheggf]

18 minutes ago, SpookyXy said:

I read the thread, I know what it's about. I was only commenting on your armour tier list. I read your earlier comment on the weapon variety in the game and combined with your tier list of what you usually use it just seemed unrealistic. You're good enough at the game you can use whatever you want, most players would struggle a lot more if they did that.

I literally started the conversation by saying that bad players are bad and they're using bad armor because they're bad. That's not a revelation. If you're going into rift content still using the easily accessible bad armor that's made for bad players, that isn't an indictment on "everyone using the same armor", that's an indictment to you never bothering to think about your armor choices and stagnating your understanding of the armor system as to what it was when you first started playing the game. 

I don't care if someone uses football helmets for 10,000 hours straight and never bothers to learn anything else. I don't care if someone eats meatballs for 10,000 hours straight and never bothers to learn anything else. They're keeping their game boring for themself, not me. The only thing I care about is if someone uses their incorrect low-level understanding of the game and extrapolates it as a universal truth, saying something like "The food system is bad and needs to be changed because I don't instantly die if I eat meatballs" or "Rifts didn't change how much armor variety there is since I only wear football helmets". Those issues are solved by you getting better, not by the game changing to force you to learn. 

Edited May 15, 2025 by Cheggf

[SpookyXy]

59 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I literally started the conversation by saying that bad players are bad and they're using bad armor because they're bad. That's not a revelation. If you're going into rift content still using the easily accessible bad armor that's made for bad players, that isn't an indictment on "everyone using the same armor", that's an indictment to you never bothering to think about your armor choices and stagnating your understanding of the armor system as to what it was when you first started playing the game. 

I don't care if someone uses football helmets for 10,000 hours straight and never bothers to learn anything else. I don't care if someone eats meatballs for 10,000 hours straight and never bothers to learn anything else. They're keeping their game boring for themself, not me. The only thing I care about is if someone uses their incorrect low-level understanding of the game and extrapolates it as a universal truth, saying something like "The food system is bad and needs to be changed because I don't instantly die if I eat meatballs" or "Rifts didn't change how much armor variety there is since I only wear football helmets". Those issues are solved by you getting better, not by the game changing to force you to learn. 

I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. There's a lot more variety to the game than football helmets, hambats and meatballs and they better at the game you are the more you can make use of these things but it feels a little disingenuous to act as if all these options are equally viable when some requiere a lot more time/effort/character dependence than others. Personally I have no strong feelings about rift content either way.

Edited May 15, 2025 by SpookyXy

[Guille6785]

On 5/14/2025 at 9:20 PM, SpookyXy said:

but it feels a little disingenuous to act as if all these options are equally viable

wth does "viable" even mean

[gaymime]

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

wth does "viable" even mean

2-a & 2-c

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable

[Guille6785]

3 hours ago, gaymime said:

2-a & 2-c

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable

"succeeding" at what

[gaymime]

3 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

"succeeding" at what

bring effectively useful in a practical fashion to multiple people

[Jovo]

100%. There is much room for innovation and improvement. Say thunder/electricity weapon that could be charged from the Lightning Rod, after it accumulated enough power.
Lightning Rod as electricity charging station of sorts. 3-4 jolts make it full, and you can empty it and charge your weapon, for say +25% of your weapon's charge.

Cold weapon range appears under-developed. Spear should be longer on the screen and inflict damage at the longer distance. Bat Bat is large, does distance in combat play any role?

Planar/Lunar Grade

Traditionally (in games) weapons-grade is used in combination with skills (which is yet another abstraction level in itself), so that player can obtain the same/similar weapon with 1+ grade (slightly better damage dealt, precision, faster charge etc).
Easy to implement, it gives player things to do (and skills to chase). Even when implemented from the start (skills + grading) it ain't all that great, I would opt for "holistic" and more creative approach, kind of what Klei went for, before they changed their mind.
Introducing it at later stages of development (skills + grading) will just break the balance of damage/health introduced thus far - Low hanging fruit may be sweet, but is it worth it?

Now skills alone - character based, that yield improvements in actual game-play, is very interesting concept, well worth exploring.