The wolfgang conundrum.

[DVGMedia]

This always just makes me think of how interesting wolfgang can be.

This is leg day which is a 10 percent boost but its a multiplier so it affects everything normally a warsaddle beef cant be used to do this fight because it is too slow to dodge the rook. but with default wolfgang it can. But then i hear you say well you cant do 2x damage But like you can...
you just need to have a beef horn setup so you can end up doing 2x damage on a beef. only sad part is that that method at max can only really last 20  seconds since the beefalo horn follower aspect only lasts for 20 seconds. 
I feel like there needs to be a way to make beefalos become friendly for longer other than just the beefalo horn.
since the bell doesn't make it a player follower its only a follower to the bell.

is this doing a similar thing with something else in a round about manner yeah it is. But ive always enjoyed having other methods of play.  and if this enables me to make beefalos worth while on wolfgang why not.
more ways to play a boring character should be welcomed. That and also being able to lock mighty gain in this situation. maybe do it like how wigfrid only gets the minimum vampirism despite how much damage she does on a beef. Make it so that wolf only gets minimum mighty .25 a hit.

[Gashzer]

The only beefalo worth while for Wolfgang is a rider. 

Using an ornery beefalo on any character is boring and samey. Taming a beefalo for combat is probably the worst way to play DST because you making every character play the same during combat instead of taking advantage of a characters unique combat strengths.

Wormwood having the ability to easily craft bat bats and darkswords plus his bramble husk armour and bloom speed make healing during combat feel unique with the ability to AoE tank hordes. Taming a beefalo removes a characters unique feel and replaces it with a generic one.

Wolfgang feels unique and nice because he excels at all the things you would normally need to tame a beefalo for, cancels piggyback movement penalty, can carry marble pieces and move heavy stuff around easily. So by forcing a war saddle beefalo to "work" with Wolfgang goes against his entire design and reason to play him.

Wolfgang is not boring for the people who hate taming and using beefalos and want the convenience of being able to do what a beefalo can do without needing one. 

Wolfgang has never been a boring character like Walter has never been a bad character, people are trying to force their preferred playstyles (this one being using a beefalo) on characters that reward a different playstyle, both Wolfgang and Walter reward and encourage you not to tame a beefalo because it's simply a waste of their unique skills if you do.

[YouKnowWho142]

56 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The only beefalo worth while for Wolfgang is a rider. 

Using an ornery beefalo on any character is boring and samey. Taming a beefalo for combat is probably the worst way to play DST because you making every character play the same during combat instead of taking advantage of a characters unique combat strengths.

Wormwood having the ability to easily craft bat bats and darkswords plus his bramble husk armour and bloom speed make healing during combat feel unique with the ability to AoE tank hordes. Taming a beefalo removes a characters unique feel and replaces it with a generic one.

Wolfgang feels unique and nice because he excels at all the things you would normally need to tame a beefalo for, cancels piggyback movement penalty, can carry marble pieces and move heavy stuff around easily. So by forcing a war saddle beefalo to "work" with Wolfgang goes against his entire design and reason to play him.

Wolfgang is not boring for the people who hate taming and using beefalos and want the convenience of being able to do what a beefalo can do without needing one. 

Wolfgang has never been a boring character like Walter has never been a bad character, people are trying to force their preferred playstyles (this one being using a beefalo) on characters that reward a different playstyle, both Wolfgang and Walter reward and encourage you not to tame a beefalo because it's simply a waste of their unique skills if you do.

I agree with this to a certain extent, I don't think it is the worst way to play the game, anyone can play the game how they wish. However, by using a beefalo you're largely acknowledging that you are trying to ignore most of the unique benefits that comes from playing the character itself, as the beefalo is essentially its own character. I don't think Wolfgang is necessarily boring, he is a simple character by design and doesn't need to be overcomplicated (even if his skill tree took that way too far). I do not think it is fair in the slightest to find a character objectively or factually boring because you do not enjoy their playstyle. I think the dislike of Wolfgang stems from the idea of his playstyle, though I don't think every character needs to appeal to everyone which is why options exist to begin with. It almost feels like the original post is trying to advocate for changes that would let them play Wolfgang without having to play Wolfgang, and that isn't really something I entirely understand especially when it seems that they just do not enjoy Wolfgang.

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Using an ornery beefalo on any character is boring and samey. Taming a beefalo for combat is probably the worst way to play DST because you making every character play the same during combat instead of taking advantage of a characters unique combat strengths.

Precisely why I hate beefalo. Preaching to this choir.

[Wawchik]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Wolfgang has never been a boring character like Walter has never been a bad character, people are trying to force their preferred playstyles (this one being using a beefalo) on characters that reward a different playstyle, both Wolfgang and Walter reward and encourage you not to tame a beefalo because it's simply a waste of their unique skills if you do.

Guys, don't craft thulicite crowns as Wigfrid because you're wasting her unique skills of crafting battle helms

Woby was objectively worse than beefalo, Walter didn't encourage not taming a beefalo in any way, it was literally the opposite, because on a beefalo you don't die when you get hit once, YOU ARE trying to force the beefalo hate play style. Maybe Walter wasn't terrible, but he was a failed character, you were discouraged to do melee fights and given a mount to use in ranged combat, but slingshot just sucked, and please, don't call it a tool, the existence of thulicite rounds proves that it's not 

[hyoton123]

I liked the old slingshot…

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, Wawchik said:

Guys, don't craft thulicite crowns as Wigfrid because you're wasting her unique skills of crafting battle helms

List of perks Wigfrid isn't using because she's wearing a thulecite crown

• Battle helms

List of perks Wigfrid is able to use while wearing a thulecite crown

• Health vampirism
• Sanity vampirism
• Innate damage bonus
• Enhanced weapon durability
• Group health regeneration
• Group sanity regeneration
• Group insanity resistance
• AoE panic
• AoE aggro
• AoE team revive
• Innate planar defense
• Battle spears
• Battle ronds
• Elding spears

I don't think anyone would pick Wigfrid if all she did was make helmets. Everyone would hate her more than they hated old Winona. 

-

Edit: Also I didn't even list all her bad perks like Fireproof Falsetto.

[DVGMedia]

5 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Wolfgang without having to play Wolfgang, and that isn't really something I entirely understand especially when it seems that they just do not enjoy Wolfgang.

Whats wrong with that?
Its using wolf gangs unique traits to have a different method of play? Why do you assume I hate wolfgang Im using his strengths to use tools the game provides in different manners?
I really just thought it was an interesting mechanic that people could probably enjoy wolfgang more for.
I think  people would play him more if he wasn't just about being mighty.  And this is a hap hazard way of trying something new within a characters kit. I feel like being able to take multiple pathways with a character is useful. However because this method is restricted so much Its not really viable.

And viability is really the defining factor of a playstyle sometimes.
All the beefalo haters are strange. Its basically the same as getting a piece of armor  or a weapon.
literally dreadstone repair kits and the eye mask / shield are exactly the same as a beefalo.
 

.

[Well-met]

5 hours ago, Evelo said:

Precisely why I hate beefalo. Preaching to this choir.

unfortunately ever since YoTB klei made beefalos easy to get and easy to maintain which is why everybody does it by default

[Guille6785]

5 hours ago, Evelo said:

Precisely why I hate beefalo. Preaching to this choir.

29 minutes ago, Well-met said:

unfortunately ever since YoTB klei made beefalos easy to get and easy to maintain which is why everybody does it by default

beefalo are bad because they homogenize combat but skill trees/reworks are bad despite attempting to differentiate combat between characters?

[DVGMedia]

7 hours ago, Gashzer said:

it's simply a waste of their unique skills if you do.

But i used wolfgangs unique skills to make a playstyle that would normally not be viable into one that could be?

[Popian]

14 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

That and also being able to lock mighty gain in this situation.

There is staying hungry so your might drains faster.

[DVGMedia]

14 minutes ago, Popian said:

There is staying hungry so your might drains faster.

yeah but gaining mighty pauses that for 4 seconds and every hit gains mighty.  so starving doesn't really do anything unless you are not actively fighting.

[FillerText]

3 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

All the beefalo haters are strange. Its basically the same as getting a piece of armor or a weapon.

People hate Beefalos because they're just tired of being constantly told this rhetoric about them being the best. It's just basic fatigue caused by multiple youtubers randomly deciding to praise them just because it worked out for them specifically, and countless people repeating those same statements as if it's gospel. Beefalos are good, but they are not some objectively best playstyle everyone should strive towards. It's just dumbing down the game by ignoring everything else it has to offer. The countless items in the game exist for a reason. You don't really try to sell this idea, but people really just want a break from the Beefalo fad that has been going on for a while.

Beefalos do achieve similiar effects as armor, or a weapon. But people have all the right to dislike said armor or weapon. It's just as valid for you to think Dark Swords are overrated as it is for other people to dislike Beefalos. Besides, you have already presented an example for why they aren't equivalent by showcasing that Wolfgang has to do a round-about set up to deal increased damage with a Beefalo instead of just being mighty, and using a hambat.

I didn't understand your main post due to lack of punctuation. However, if I understand it correctly, I don't think Wolfgang being able to turn Beefalos into Wolfgang has any point. If every character can just impose their strengths onto the Beefalo, while also benefitting from all the strengths of one, then what does it achieve other than actually make Beefalos the objectively best way to play the game? It's the same as making WX, who is faster than a beefalo able to apply speed boosts to them. At this point you are actually turning Beefalos into equipment pieces attached to the character.

I also don't understand how that topic is a "conundrum". You aren't pointing out some complex design flaw with Wolfgang, but suggest a very simple buff to his skill tree to make actually performing that same strat easier. It feels like you just titled it like that to get engagement.

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, FillerText said:

People hate Beefalos because they're just tired of being constantly told this rhetoric about them being the best. It's just basic fatigue caused by multiple youtubers randomly deciding to praise them just because it worked out for them specifically, and countless people repeating those same statements as if it's gospel. Beefalos are good, but they are not some objectively best playstyle everyone should strive towards. It's just dumbing down the game by ignoring everything else it has to offer. The countless items in the game exist for a reason. You don't really try to sell this idea, but people really just want a break from the Beefalo fad that has been going on for a while.

beefalos arent great for everything. They are just good for every day fights.  I mean i know some people  like to use them for rushing. But there are benefits to not have them also.
I havent really seen anyone forcing people to use beefs.  And ive been a beef user since the abiliity came out.

 

1 hour ago, FillerText said:

I didn't understand your main post due to lack of punctuation. However, if I understand it correctly, I don't think Wolfgang being able to turn Beefalos into Wolfgang has any point. If every character can just impose their strengths onto the Beefalo, while also benefitting from all the strengths of one, then what does it achieve other than actually make Beefalos the objectively best way to play the game? It's the same as making WX, who is faster than a beefalo able to apply speed boosts to them. At this point you are actually turning Beefalos into equipment pieces attached to the character.

The point is most people didn't like wolfgangs tree because it was mostly so simple.  boosting only his mighty form.  This is showing off a situation where default can be viable. And its ment to try and push for the idea of making wolfgang be more than just mighty.

[Walrusst]

Beefalo are weird because its so long setup, so high payoff, so time consuming to replace.

You can easily beat beefalo with on foot performance in all regards easily, with a magiluminescence + cane + sanity headpiece + juggled in armor + weapons (Even more so with high performance characters like wormwood, wx, wigfridm wortox, wolfgang,) but in a way beefalo sort of answer an uneasy middle ground where it acts as extra inventory slots that make all that juggling unnecessary, but this is balanced by making it so you are out for a third of a year if you truly mess up.

Its more a symptom of the combat having reached a point where performance among weapons and the textures of the weapons has been nearly homogeneous for so long that everything's been tightly balanced around the regular basic attack executions.
There's two normal whips, no cork bat speed weapon, no effort to give the worthless stabbing weapons beneficial properties, so peak inventory juggler infantry, and beefalo are all the games adapted to handle at this point. So in the end the games centered around a few 51-68 damage weapons which generally feel the same which beefalo perfectly overlap.

There just isn't a whole lot that gives a new feel or situational nuance to picking fights outside of less inventory management.

[hyoton123]

OP: I mean, you can currently use leg day beefalo, that is a thing you are empowered to do. It's fair to say that it isn't good enough to compete with on foot wolf, but it's also convenient in ways that fighting on foot isn't. So I don't see why coaching whistle should be some sort of weird workaround for that. Is there any reason he isn't just straight up better than wilson on a beef? 

[Evelo]

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

beefalo are bad because they homogenize combat

True

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

but skill trees/reworks are bad despite attempting to differentiate combat between characters?

That's not why I personally feel they are bad. I feel skill trees are bad because they more often than not, act as a re-refresh by locking very important character traits that would benefit from being fundamental (Willow, Wigfrid, Wurt, Winona, you get the idea). The fact they change how characters engage with the combat of the game is great. Just make it baseline

[oregu]

17 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

beefalo are bad because they homogenize combat but skill trees/reworks are bad despite attempting to differentiate combat between characters?

this argument is rly confuing cause a lot of characters can also do combat skills on a beefalo? having each character be able to do combat skills on beefalo sounds like a good idea tbh the only reason i dont think its been done yet because it requires animating the beefalo.

the only skills i can think in particular u cant do is willow alignment special and wortox soul hop, which i dont rly see any issue adding.

wereform beefalo rider sound rly funny but i have no clue how you'd add that in a way that makes sense, still sounds like a good idea though