Fuelweaver poll (again) (again v2) (v3)

[Wawchik]

2 hours ago, Dwight34 said:

If you can't realize the behavior of your cult, every single member acting about as morally upstanding as members of Caesar's Legion in FNV, is the reason I'm not giving you any respect since you spit in 99% of players faces, there is no help to be given you. You are all truly deranged.

Is fuelweaver THAT hard? We (maxwell and wigfrid) beat him first try, yes, we had all the stuff needed like weather pains, but still, that was first try and I made a lot of mistakes, like completely burning a weather pain and got mind controlled a few times 

[Swiyss]

19 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

Is fuelweaver THAT hard? We (maxwell and wigfrid) beat him first try, yes, we had all the stuff needed like weather pains, but still, that was first try and I made a lot of mistakes, like completely burning a weather pain and got mind controlled a few times 

yep. YOU are the majority, not people who go in first time with a ham bat and expect to win.

[DinsdaleP]

Fuelweaver is moderately cancerous, but Dragonfly is, or in the case most players, would be a fun fight IF the lavae couldn't be just ignored via a few walls. Doing that particular boss battle with ice staffs or using other creative methods is amazing, but walling things off absolutely kills any fun, and it's extremely sad how that exploit became the normal way of fighting her for most.

[Swiyss]

54 minutes ago, DinsdaleP said:

Fuelweaver is moderately cancerous, but Dragonfly is, or in the case most players, would be a fun fight IF the lavae couldn't be just ignored via a few walls. Doing that particular boss battle with ice staffs or using other creative methods is amazing, but walling things off absolutely kills any fun, and it's extremely sad how that exploit became the normal way of fighting her for most.

It's sad and there's probably not a healthy way out without putting something back in. Like an ice staff setpiece with 2 staves.

[GenomeSquirrel]

2 hours ago, Wawchik said:

Is fuelweaver THAT hard? We (maxwell and wigfrid) beat him first try, yes, we had all the stuff needed like weather pains, but still, that was first try and I made a lot of mistakes, like completely burning a weather pain and got mind controlled a few times 

I tried it using godmode and console commands to adjust my sanity as needed, and it was still really obnoxious, particularly the inability to target what I want.

 

Although I didn’t vote in this poll, my answer would be closer to, a version of this game where you must fight bosses sounds intriguing, but no one in this lobby has any regard to complete any part of the game involving them, so I’ll complete whatever objective amuses me.

[AliceShiki]

12 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

the problem lies at how tanky the larvaes are and the fact that df can just spawn more than 1 at a pond. even just 2 creates such a gigantic health pool for you to deal with (and if you dodge correctly you will take too long and df will have already spawned another 2 headed your way and the only way to stop is to panflute her). if thats changed then it'd be a lot less obnoxious at random since she does this AT LEAST FOUR times with the first being 5 larvaes, and every time she does it afterwards will increase the larvae count by 1. 

The way I personally handle Larvae phase, once I realized I wasn't realistically killing them on time, was actually to mostly run around. At first it's pretty silly as you just run around in circles dodging the larvaes, but once Dfly joins in on the fun, then it becomes a lot more interesting to try avoiding the larvae while also trying to kite Dfly.

And of course, needing to kill the last Larvae does force one to stop running around, but well, I try only killing the very last Larvae, because I felt like I took way too much damage from the larvaes in my first attempts where I tried killing them all.

I assume Wolfgang should be able to kill them all in time without too many issues, but as Wigfrid I felt like my best bet was to run around instead of fight them, and it was still pretty fun to me... At least while using Shield. If I was using a stronger weapon I might have been able to kill all larvaes on time, but I dunno how I'd handle Enraged Phase without Shield. I'm not good enough to actually kite that one. The timing for Enraged Dfly kiting is quite precise... Though I found that having a road near her helped, as I could land 3 hits and then run away if I was already in melee range with the Dfly. The timing didn't work out if I had just dodged an attack, but if I were in melee range I could land 3 hits and run through the road and safely dodge the Enraged attack.

Oh, and the minimum amount of Larvae phases is actually 3, not 4, btw.

[DegenerateFurry]

6 hours ago, Wawchik said:

Is fuelweaver THAT hard? We (maxwell and wigfrid) beat him first try, yes, we had all the stuff needed like weather pains, but still, that was first try and I made a lot of mistakes, like completely burning a weather pain and got mind controlled a few times 

Fuelweaver is infinitely easier if you have more than one player.

[SilverSpoon]

14 hours ago, astareus said:

ayo chill out man, Its a hard game, but not the end of the world. You're kinda feeding the hate what it wants. Try overcoming it with skill trees, not every character is Wes.

The skill tree doesn't help make AFW fight "Fun," it actually makes it worse.

Fighting an AFW alone is still a Sisyphean Tedious, and the addition of the skill tree means the AFW gets minced in no time before enjoy the fight when fighting with multiple players.

 

PS:I was thinking of creating another poll, as was suggested in this thread, with a simple "Yes" or "No" answer to the question of whether AFW is fine, but that seems unacceptable to our community manager

[readkey]

9 hours ago, DinsdaleP said:

Fuelweaver is moderately cancerous, but Dragonfly is, or in the case most players, would be a fun fight IF the lavae couldn't be just ignored via a few walls. Doing that particular boss battle with ice staffs or using other creative methods is amazing, but walling things off absolutely kills any fun, and it's extremely sad how that exploit became the normal way of fighting her for most.

I even use water balloons to stop Dfly rage phase. It is hilarious to see yourself throwing balloons to a giant flying bug. 

[WilsonHiggs]

9 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

inability to target what I want

Force atack works fine for me

6 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Fuelweaver is infinitely easier if you have more than one player.

Did you tried? It can be harder if you and your partner don't do things at the right time. Being alone makes easier to control when the torches are broken and when the minions are killed

19 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

a lot of the problems in bossfights are some of them are just stupid at random, cuz ive been fighting wall-less dragonfly and its super engaging (i should probably start practicing enraged df as well but im still pussying out of it), the problem lies at how tanky the larvaes are and the fact that df can just spawn more than 1 at a pond. even just 2 creates such a gigantic health pool for you to deal with (and if you dodge correctly you will take too long and df will have already spawned another 2 headed your way and the only way to stop is to panflute her). if thats changed then it'd be a lot less obnoxious at random since she does this AT LEAST FOUR times with the first being 5 larvaes, and every time she does it afterwards will increase the larvae count by 1. 

fuelweaver is ****** by both sanity mechanic, the healing as well as the environment. the snowballing on the boss' side is ******* stupid similar to pre-rework CK.

if you have a nightmare creature on you you just randomly get stalked by it for ******* ever due to the rng nature of them deaggroing (and/or despawning when you have enough sanity) and if you use a tool to hit things from afar (because of course this boss does both of his obnoxious attacks at once) you can also hit the nightmares and then they'll aggro on you. not to mention the stupid mechanic makes it so at random they just wont spawn even at 0 sanity so at random you get a freebie due to that **** spawning (or you get ****** bc you wait forever to get nm fuel but they just wont spawn). and i havent even mentioned the awful arena. its cool, its got vibe and it is menacing. but the atrium, pillars, statues, and fuelweaver himself has gigantic mouse detection and often times i have to constantly rotate til i barf to get a good mouse click (or just let him reset the fight with the FOUR HUNDRED HEALING per woven eaten) and basically reset everything. the fight already costs a lot for certain methods while others require beating and opening surface rift. again im not saying its got 0 answers to, but i feel bullshited whenever a random ******* thing in the arena blocks my mouse or a random nightmare cancels my actions/constantly hit me even tho i do what im supposed to (getting sane) to get rid of them. and resetting the fight when that ******* boss takes so much resources to even do 1 clean go its really stupid. its why i never ******* touch the boss after i open rift

bee queen, just a stupid 'i **** out minion and also **** your dodging' and clearly had 0 thought given to it. before the answer was just spam your own minions, nowadays characters tend to have more tools to deal with her but overall shes still a **** boss

Ice staffs. 3 hits per lavae and done. You are rewarded with +40 rocks when you use ice staves. But by the way to wrote your comment I doubt you want to improve or learn but complain and blame the game

[SilverSpoon]

2 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Did you tried? It can be harder if you and your partner don't do things at the right time. Being alone makes easier to control when the torches are broken and when the minions are killed

When I play with a multiplayer on my Discord channel, even with just two people, the "Pain(Not difficulty)" of fighting AWF is greatly reduced.

Basically, the biggest pain in the ass when you are forced to play AFW alone is having to simultaneously "keep sanity high to avoid being hindered by Nightmare monsters and Mind Control, kill Woven Shadows to prevent recovery," and "keep sanity low to destroy Unseen Hands." This is like looking left while looking right. Also, if you fail even once, AFW will recover 4000+ health. (I should mention that Weather Pain and Nightmare Amulet doesn't make this sequence that easy)

In multiplayer, you can make this problem go away by having some players keep their sanity high and others keep their sanity low.

[Wawchik]

Hey there

Just killed fuelweaver with my buddy (Wortox and Woodie) he was fighting fw for the first time and I was fighting as moose. We had 1 weather pain jelly beans and that's it, no nightmare amulet

We did like 6th try, and most of the battle I was sitting in that stupid cage so he had to manage everything else. 

So the boss isn't THAT hard, but I still wish Moose could break the cage with it's charge or smth, the entire reason we had to rollback so many times is because we both were mind controlled while he was healing. With good prep we'd probably do it first try too

[Swiyss]

51 minutes ago, Wawchik said:

Hey there

Just killed fuelweaver with my buddy (Wortox and Woodie) he was fighting fw for the first time and I was fighting as moose. We had 1 weather pain jelly beans and that's it, no nightmare amulet

We did like 6th try, and most of the battle I was sitting in that stupid cage so he had to manage everything else. 

So the boss isn't THAT hard, but I still wish Moose could break the cage with it's charge or smth, the entire reason we had to rollback so many times is because we both were mind controlled while he was healing. With good prep we'd probably do it first try too

yeah with nightmare amulet it's a breeze i don't know why you didn't take one, did you forget?

[WilsonHiggs]

1 hour ago, Wawchik said:

Hey there

Just killed fuelweaver with my buddy (Wortox and Woodie) he was fighting fw for the first time and I was fighting as moose. We had 1 weather pain jelly beans and that's it, no nightmare amulet

We did like 6th try, and most of the battle I was sitting in that stupid cage so he had to manage everything else. 

So the boss isn't THAT hard, but I still wish Moose could break the cage with it's charge or smth, the entire reason we had to rollback so many times is because we both were mind controlled while he was healing. With good prep we'd probably do it first try too

You can use the weather pain a couple of times on FW when you are starting to get mind controlled so the tornadoes deal with the minions during the stun effect

[Wawchik]

52 minutes ago, astareus said:

yeah with nightmare amulet it's a breeze i don't know why you didn't take one, did you forget?

We didn't have a shadow manipulator, don't ask why

Anyway, my friend couldn't manage his sanity so he was always at 0 even with bee queen crown he told me it doesn't help, so I guess it wouldn't make much of a difference

6 minutes ago, WilsonHiggs said:

You can use the weather pain a couple of times on FW when you are starting to get mind controlled so the tornadoes deal with the minions during the stun effect

Tornadoes seem to run out so fast, so I had to immediately dash through his food when I cage breaks and then they'd all die in a chain reaction because of Wortox's skill, and we had only 1 weather pain, so wasting it wasn't an option 

[IAmAFurrz]

7 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Ice staffs. 3 hits per lavae and done. You are rewarded with +40 rocks when you use ice staves. But by the way to wrote your comment I doubt you want to improve or learn but complain and blame the game

i didnt say there are no ways to deal with them but ice staff is 1 way to deal with them consistently yes. wouldnt it be nice if you could choose the riskier route of fighting and dodging them without having to rely on rng to not just screw you over with even just 2 FIVE hundred health and 50 damage per hit minions that will let df spawn even more of them?

again, literally what would changing it so larvaes cant spawn multiple times in 1 pond harm? many people agree that that is stupid

i am of the opinion that i can improve yes. i can absolutely deal with it but it doesnt feel good when rng can dictate how a fight goes. so dont you dare go 'you only want to blame the game'. because you know theres another way of doing the fight is with walls, if i were to take that into consideration then why do i even care about them spawning? its just a boring slow fight with a boss that just walks away for a while. 

2 hours ago, Wawchik said:

Tornadoes seem to run out so fast, so I had to immediately dash through his food when I cage breaks and then they'd all die in a chain reaction because of Wortox's skill, and we had only 1 weather pain, so wasting it wasn't an option 

dont answer him, he loves to use the 'just do xyz, youre bad and that makes it a good fight' as an argument

[WilsonHiggs]

3 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

dont answer him, he loves to use the 'just do xyz, youre bad and that makes it a good fight' as an argument

Or maybe I just like to help people solve problems I had. Better cry instead of learning

[Semind]

1 hour ago, Wawchik said:

Anyway, my friend couldn't manage his sanity so he was always at 0 even with bee queen crown he told me it doesn't help, so I guess it wouldn't make much of a difference

I can only imagine he was constantly overloading on souls. That kind of sanity hit doesn't get mitigated just by BQ crown usage.


So far, my personal experience with AFW is that every time you get to eliminate even just one of the spinning plates in managing AFW, the fight becomes tremendously more manageable. Characters who can ignore having to bring Lazy Explorer (Wanda, Wortox, Wigfrid, Walter too I suppose), characters who can ignore having to bring Weather Pains (Wigfrid, Wendy, Winona, Maxwell... Wolfgang with the dumbbells maybe???), and the all-in-one counter to both of Phase 2's annoyances with the Brightshade Staff. Each of these let me dedicate a little more focus on understanding different parts of the fight (ok, not the BS staff, that one just shaves the fight down to a fairly menial challenge).

I was definitely in the camp of being down on AFW, but at least getting around to playing some of these characters in this matchup and finding some wins, I'm getting a little closer to seeing the AFW enjoyers' side of things. Something that I'm coming to realize is that a big part of the pain in fighting AFW is that you're being put into a situation where you're forced to learn about 5 different skills in parallel to achieve success. There's no opportunity to take each one at a time, so when you inevitably fumble 3 or 4 consecutive actions of the game plan, it feels very demoralizing that the punishment is being sent back to square one (actually, it's closer to square -1 or -2 if you consider the resources you just wasted). And on top of that, it's so so easy to miss that - when I say you need 5 skills - you may not even be aware of one or more of them. I actually really didn't catch at first that synching up the invuln and critter cooldowns makes an important difference. And that tanking in Phase 2 is actually more resource efficient on some level because you're spending less of your utility items overall. When I actually came to understand that, it certainly changed my perception. But I don't think it's unreasonable to feel like that's opaque fight design that doesn't exist anywhere else in the game and is therefore quite difficult to grasp through mere play.

Or maybe is just so godawful to have to navigate sanity barriers as you try to ferry however many resources you think you'll need to the boss arena. I'm sure more than one person figured that bringing excess equipment is a sensible plan to try to salve over potential misplays. Just a shame that if you don't want to do multiple trips, you're slightly limited on how much you can over-prepare. (Which isn't that outrageous, right? You're kinda being asked to spend resources on just reaching the fight, so naturally you wouldn't want to be making many trips through the atrium)

One pet idea I landed on recently that I'm fond of is, what if you could fight selectively nerfed versions of AFW that remove one or more of his moves. Treat it like being able to practice individual parts of the fight in isolation, to reduce the stress of ramping up to the complete experience.

Spoilered because this is a half-baked idea that came to me as I was writing the post, but maybe there's something a value in here.

Spoiler

What if the Shadow Pieces could serve as this, somehow? Hypothetically, maybe each Lv3 shadow piece could gain a weak version of one of AFW's moves?

 

[Radicaljoe]

My main beef with the fight is the healing goobers, everything else is fine. Even the bubble is manageable if the punishment isn't fw healing 1,200 for eating 3 goobers. I know I know "its supposed to be the punishment tho! Just keep him away from the center!" I get it. 400 is a wee bit much though don't you agree? 200 would be fine and I don't think it would affect the players who do like the fight. I'm sure they're the ones killing all the healers anyway so nerfing the heal won't change their fight at all.

Also fix the auto target prioritizing the invincible fuel weaver over the 12 healing blobs pls and thank you

[Bumber64]

Haven't even fought AFW, CK, or CC due to their requirements. I can tell I wouldn't enjoy AFW just by looking at videos and knowing how I fumble with inventory management in DST. CK probably just has an issue jumping onto sinking ice. (Was this improved in a recent patch?)

I've killed DFly and BQ using gunpowder and pan flute to soften them up and shorten the fight. I started a fight with Toadstool and just nope'd out of it when I couldn't keep up with spore caps.

That's my feedback on these types of bosses in lieu of responding to the poll.

[Hungry French]

The problem with DST bosses is that Klei creates them for a game called Together.
Bosses are not balanced for a single player in terms of characteristics and mechanics, but Klei doesn't care and really cool fights only happen with friends.