15 skill point limit for all, really reasonable?

[Lee Sy]

I have been always against the skill tree, I don't like this way that limit the quantity of skills. I hope the basic improvement, such as the Willow's lighter's illumination range, the burning duration of Wilson's torch, could directly apply to the character in the way of the 2nd round character rework. You can make choice only when choose for lunar or shadow alliance, or you could choose between different play styles in a mini tree.

我一向是反技能树党，我从一开始就不喜欢这种限制技能数量的方式，我倾向于使基础加强（薇洛的打火机发光范围，温蒂的哀悼荣耀获取量提升，威尔逊的火把燃烧时间）直接以角色重做的形式作用于本体，而抉择/技能限制只出现在亲和技能上，或是在以一个迷你版技能树的形式强迫玩家在特定的流派之间做出选择。

What's the brilliant limit design? I will nominate Willow, Woody and Wortox. As for Willow, you have to choose between super fire magic and perfect Bernie, even if you prefer the fire magic, you will still hesitate to choose lunar fire or shadow fire. Woody need to choose among fight, collection and exploration. Wortox need to choose to be a good boy or bad guy in a balance, so innovative and thoughtful design.

我认为比较优秀的限制设计是有薇洛，伐木工和小恶魔的技能树，对于薇洛而言，超级火焰法术和完美的伯尼熊只能二选一，即使你选择了火魔法，也必须在月火影火上纠结。伐木工需要在诅咒动物的强化技能中三选一，战斗特化，收集特化，探图特化。小恶魔则是在好孩子与淘气包的天平上做权衡，很用心的设计。

And……Wigfrid, although I don't think it's a good tree, the limit design is nice actually. Spear shield helmet, songs and beafloo, the style distinguish is clear.

还有女武神，虽然我认为女武神的技能树整体上很糟糕，但在限制设计上做得很不错，矛盾盔的分阶强化，战歌系统与驯牛系统间的抉择，具有很明显的流派划分。

At the same time, I need to point out some terrible limit designs in my eye. Wolfgang, pure number enhancement, powerful but boring. Little improvement, more improvement, great improvement, full of these simple repetitions, and you can easily find 15 better skills, no need to make choice like Willow. I can say nothing but perfunctory for it. Different with potato guy, Wendy tree seems like abundant, but still empty. For example, obtain mourning glory(MG) faster, obtain MG easier, obtain more MG, seems like tree different skills but still one thing. You can hardly find similar repetition in Walter's tree, full of totally new skills.

同时我也要点出一些我认为很糟糕的限制设计，大力士的树只有一些纯粹的数值提升，一点点提升，更多的提升，大量的提升，全都是这样的数值堆砌，而且很容易找到更好的15个技能，不需要纠结，除了敷衍我想不到别的形容词。再就是温蒂，与大力士不同，温蒂的树看起来有很多内容，但本质上是一回事，比如更快获得哀悼荣耀，更容易获得哀悼荣耀，获得更多哀悼荣耀，确实是三个不同的技能，但仍然是一点点提升，更多提升，大量提升的堆砌，而沃尔特的技能树就很少出现类似的重复，所有的技能都是全新的设计。

But Walter is also in my list of bad limit design, it's a perfect tree for me, and this is also the problem, it's way too perfect, 15 points are not enough for this tree. I don't think there're any conflicts among sling, scout and woby. Choosing for these perfect skills is cruel, no skills shouldn't be chosen, it's a kind of waste.

还有沃尔特，虽然我刚刚夸了他，我也承认这是一个在我看来很完美的技能树，但问题就在这儿，沃尔特的技能树太完美了，15个技能点根本不够用，我不认为弹弓，沃比与童子军之间有什么冲突的地方，在这些完美的技能之中做抉择太残忍了，没有任何一个技能应该被抛弃，这是一种设计上的浪费。

Above all, I prefer the developers could design two or three genres for certain character. It's better to choose a genre than pick 15 in a pile of skills. My ideal situation is pick all gold and a little gem or all gem and a little gold from a heap of gem and gold. Wigfrid's problem is pick 15 silver from a heap of stone and silver. Wendy pick 15 stone from a heap of stone; Walter pick 15 gold from a heap of gold.

总结，我更喜欢设计师能为单个角色规划出两到三个明显的玩法流派，在不同流派中做出取舍要比在一团技能堆中挑出15个更好。女武神的问题在于，流派之间的强度对比太明显了，可以突刺的武器要比驯牛有吸引力得多。沃尔特和温蒂的问题是没有明显的流派，无论如何加点，都不影响骑狗远程输出和姐妹联合攻击的特性，至于这两个角色技能树的区别，一个是从一堆黄金中挑15个黄金，一个是从一堆石头中挑15个石头，而我心目中优秀的限制设计是从一堆宝石和黄金中挑走全部的黄金和一点点宝石，或者挑走全部的宝石和一点点黄金。

[Dr.Webber]

I would love to be able to to choose all the skills

I know you mentioned the wortox so I’m sorry if I misunderstood something, but how would this work with wortox’s inclination set up

[YouKnowWho142]

Being able to choose all the skills would make characters way too strong (which is already a complaint with just the 15 skill points) and they obviously balanced the power around a lot of the skills around the fact that you can’t choose them all, I like being able to choose how to specialize my character. Also, it would make characters feel really bloated mechanic wise

I agree that a lot of stuff from the skill trees really should’ve been basekit though. Like, if you’re forced to choose the plant inspection skill with wormwood to access the rest of the tree why not just make that a part of his character to begin with instead of basically only giving him 14 points to work with? Things like that are what I generally dislike

[Lee Sy]

3 hours ago, Dr.Webber said:

I would love to be able to to choose all the skills

I know you mentioned the wortox so I’m sorry if I misunderstood something, but how would this work with wortox’s inclination set up

 

I want to introduce limit sense/thought. Good tree without limit sense, that's Walter. Bad tree with limit sense, that's Wigfrid. Good tree with limit sense, that's Willow. Bad tree without limit sense, that's Wendy.

I mean 15 points limit is not suitable for everyone, for Willow, I would accept it, bear or fire, lunar or shadow. But for Walter, it's kind of waste to pick only 15 skills. There's no difference for your game even if you choose for totally different skills, ride on the dog and romote attack with sling. 

As for Wortox, nearly perfect, it's greedy if I want all, 1 or 2 extra points maybe better. I could also accept the present 15 limit.

As for Wendy, full of basic QOL improvement, 15 points is not enough.

As for Wolfgang, half of skills are just to make up the number. Why not just give 25 extra demage directly, I don't understand what's the meaning of this tree.

As for Wigfrid, it's hard to obtain her special weapon and some branch were too weak. I would accept 15 limit but it's not necessary to design more than 15 skills for the tree.

47 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Being able to choose all the skills would make characters way too strong (which is already a complaint with just the 15 skill points) and they obviously balanced the power around a lot of the skills around the fact that you can’t choose them all, I like being able to choose how to specialize my character. Also, it would make characters feel really bloated mechanic wise

I agree that a lot of stuff from the skill trees really should’ve been basekit though. Like, if you’re forced to choose the plant inspection skill with wormwood to access the rest of the tree why not just make that a part of his character to begin with instead of basically only giving him 14 points to work with? Things like that are what I generally dislike

That's just what I want.

Especially the Wolfgang, +5 +10 +15 +20 +25, why? Just give him 25 directly, please. Everyone would pick all the 25 point extra demage, why have to occupy 5 points, just to make up the number? Design only 5 or 6 skills, and expand to a huge tree by this way, it is indeed effective.

But what if you designed 30+ completely different skills, how could you concentrate into a small tree? Why not give up the 15 limit, it's not suitable for all. Or there should not be skill tree.

The basic QOL update should apply to the character directly, stop making meaningless choices.

[Dr.Webber]

42 minutes ago, Lee Sy said:

 

I want to introduce limit sense/thought. Good tree without limit sense, that's Walter. Bad tree with limit sense, that's Wigfrid. Good tree with limit sense, that's Willow. Bad tree without limit sense, that's Wendy.

I mean 15 points limit is not suitable for everyone, for Willow, I would accept it, bear or fire, lunar or shadow. But for Walter, it's kind of waste to pick only 15 skills. There's no difference for your game even if you choose for totally different skills, ride on the dog and romote attack with sling. 

As for Wortox, nearly perfect, it's greedy if I want all, 1 or 2 extra points maybe better. I could also accept the present 15 limit.

As for Wendy, full of basic QOL improvement, 15 points is not enough.

As for Wolfgang, half of skills are just to make up the number. Why not just give 25 extra demage directly, I don't understand what's the meaning of this tree.

As for Wigfrid, it's hard to obtain her special weapon and some branch were too weak. I would accept 15 limit but it's not necessary to design more than 15 skills for the tree.

That's just what I want.

Especially the Wolfgang, +5 +10 +15 +20 +25, why? Just give him 25 directly, please. Everyone would pick all the 25 point extra demage, why have to occupy 5 points, just to make up the number? Design only 5 or 6 skills, and expand to a huge tree by this way, it is indeed effective.

But what if you designed 30+ completely different skills, how could you concentrate into a small tree? Why not give up the 15 limit, it's not suitable for all. Or there should not be skill tree.

The basic QOL update should apply to the character directly, stop making meaningless choices.

I think ever character should have the some amount of points if you don’t have access to all skills (exuding affinities) maybe they can make other incenations work like affinities 

[Gashzer]

Brighter lighter for willow are great skills that every willow player should use.

A lot of people tend to play Willow with both lunar bernie and lunar flame. This is really counterproductive because willow's lighter is an item all willows will carry and is worth upgrading to prevent wasting an additional inventory slot on lantern.

Unless you are going burning bernie, the bernie affinity skill is not worth it, it's better to get all the lighter skills including brighter lighter. Firefighter skill empowers willow's lighter making it kill bees/spiders in 3 hits (same as spear) if you leave them to burn after, good for easy early game embers.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Brighter lighter for willow are great skills that every willow player should use.

A lot of people tend to play Willow with both lunar bernie and lunar flame. This is really counterproductive because willow's lighter is an item all willows will carry and is worth upgrading to prevent wasting an additional inventory slot on lantern.

Unless you are going burning bernie, the bernie affinity skill is not worth it, it's better to get all the lighter skills including brighter lighter. Firefighter skill empowers willow's lighter making it kill bees/spiders in 3 hits (same as spear) if you leave them to burn after, good for easy early game embers.

Making Bernie a planar entity is definitely worth it as it greatly reduces the overall damage he takes when you have him in heavier combat situations meaning you just save more resources overall when it comes to how often you use a repair kit

Brighter lighter is alright but there are just better light options beyond the lighter.

[Gashzer]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Making Bernie a planar entity is definitely worth it as it greatly reduces the overall damage he takes when you have him in heavier combat situations meaning you just save more resources overall when it comes to how often you use a repair kit

Brighter lighter is alright but there are just better light options beyond the lighter.

But reducing damage isn't important if your not using burning bernie, it's far better to upgrade willows lighter which you will be using day to day plus additional fire mage skill.

Like full fire mage willow shouldn't need to use bernie at all. Combustion with firefighter can kill bees and spiders without any extra damage or distraction needed.

Bernie should only be needed if you are using dark sword and night armour during a boss fight to distract possible nightmare creatures, even then affinity bernie is overkill, one sewing kit is 10000hp for bernie, how much health do you really need per boss fight?

Burning bernie is different because if you have spec'd so heavily into big bernie you are going to be treating him like abigail at this point, always out and following you, therefore the extra affinity defence stacks with bernies speed and regen skills to keep him alive with a net positive hp regen against constant nightmare creature damage.

Just to reiterate, full fire mage willow does not benefit having an affinity bernie without burning bernie skill. Go for brighter lighter, its useful all the time and you are going to be carrying the lighter all the time anyway.

[reddocc]

but willow herself outclasses her own lighter as she can summon fire balls

[Gashzer]

8 hours ago, Pedro cc said:

but willow herself outclasses her own lighter as she can summon fire balls

Fire Ball plus brighter lighter means willow doesn't need starcaller or lanterns ever. And if you are running about in the caves using the upgraded lighter instead of a lantern you can start fights quickly with lighter to panic mobs without awkwardly switching items around.

Affinity bernie just isn't as useful as people make it out to be, brighter lighter are the better skills. As i said before its only useful when synergising it with burning bernie with big bernie out 24/7. 

[WilsonHiggs]

13 hours ago, Gashzer said:

But reducing damage isn't important if your not using burning bernie, it's far better to upgrade willows lighter which you will be using day to day plus additional fire mage skill.

Like full fire mage willow shouldn't need to use bernie at all. Combustion with firefighter can kill bees and spiders without any extra damage or distraction needed.

Bernie should only be needed if you are using dark sword and night armour during a boss fight to distract possible nightmare creatures, even then affinity bernie is overkill, one sewing kit is 10000hp for bernie, how much health do you really need per boss fight?

Burning bernie is different because if you have spec'd so heavily into big bernie you are going to be treating him like abigail at this point, always out and following you, therefore the extra affinity defence stacks with bernies speed and regen skills to keep him alive with a net positive hp regen against constant nightmare creature damage.

Just to reiterate, full fire mage willow does not benefit having an affinity bernie without burning bernie skill. Go for brighter lighter, its useful all the time and you are going to be carrying the lighter all the time anyway.

I neither use burning bernie or increase light on the lighter.. isnt a bad perk but there are better things imo to use 2 points

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Fire Ball plus brighter lighter means willow doesn't need starcaller or lanterns ever. And if you are running about in the caves using the upgraded lighter instead of a lantern you can start fights quickly with lighter to panic mobs without awkwardly switching items around.

Affinity bernie just isn't as useful as people make it out to be, brighter lighter are the better skills. As i said before its only useful when synergising it with burning bernie with big bernie out 24/7. 

Planar bernie can tank forever, the higher the damage the enemy deals the more he absorbs

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I neither use burning bernie or increase light on the lighter.. isnt a bad perk but there are better things imo to use 2 points

Are there really better things? The better things you are talking about is increased bernie speed or increased bernie max hp or hot headed. None of these skills are better than brighter lighter.

If you have lunar flame or firefighter buffed combustion, there is zero reason to be using big bernie unless to distract/farm nightmare creatures. Planar bernie is overkill for this basic role

[WilsonHiggs]

29 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Are there really better things? The better things you are talking about is increased bernie speed or increased bernie max hp or hot headed. None of these skills are better than brighter lighter.

If you have lunar flame or firefighter buffed combustion, there is zero reason to be using big bernie unless to distract/farm nightmare creatures. Planar bernie is overkill for this basic role

Sure, bernie isnt a key feature that solves every situation but it helps for crowd control, adds some dps and is fun.

I dont need more area for a lighter, the lighter works for me on default and 99% of time i use head slot light so i prefer to waste 2 points on something i will actually use outside of the first 4 days

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Sure, bernie isnt a key feature that solves every situation but it helps for crowd control, adds some dps and is fun.

I dont need more area for a lighter, the lighter works for me on default and 99% of time i use head slot light so i prefer to waste 2 points on something i will actually use outside of the first 4 days

Well bringing it back to the topic. Brighter lighter has a use to some people like me so for Lee Sy to suggest brighter lighter is bad and should be base kit is wrong. 

[loopuleasa]

Yes

[WilsonHiggs]

22 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Well bringing it back to the topic. Brighter lighter has a use to some people like me so for Lee Sy to suggest brighter lighter is bad and should be base kit is wrong. 

Agree but i think it should be 1 point like the speed buff for bernie and add 2 interesting perks in the free space

Alsosome fire mechanics from her skill tree, non burnable loot not being looted as ash and torches burning mobs at 100% chances, should be base mechanics imo

[4Rory]

Hot Take- I wouldn't mind if Wilson got a couple extra points as a perk, considering he was originally the only one with a Skill Tree, and has little else going for him in base kit. I'd also be amenable to a server setting for more or less skill points. Base game though, 15 is that sweet spot where you always wish you had at least one more (and enjoy fantasies of being able to take everything). Feeling like you have enough points means you aren't making meaningful choices, at least relative to your desired playstyle, something Klei has obviously avoided.

Wendy has been popular and considered relatively viable at all stages, albeit with a high floor and low ceiling compared to say, Winona or Wickerbottom- aka a great character for newer players, and its good that such characters exist. If you really believed Wendy just got QoL upgrades, here is that skill tree, including full planar affinity, the most useful new Abby skills, and 4 points to spare. If she got this AND a skill tree on top, she would be crazy busted. Even without skills she has always been the best low-risk, resourceless AoE in the game.

[Dyzrespect]

On 3/1/2025 at 8:37 PM, YouKnowWho142 said:

Being able to choose all the skills would make characters way too strong (which is already a complaint with just the 15 skill points) and they obviously balanced the power around a lot of the skills around the fact that you can’t choose them all, I like being able to choose how to specialize my character. Also, it would make characters feel really bloated mechanic wise

I agree that a lot of stuff from the skill trees really should’ve been basekit though. Like, if you’re forced to choose the plant inspection skill with wormwood to access the rest of the tree why not just make that a part of his character to begin with instead of basically only giving him 14 points to work with? Things like that are what I generally dislike

Can you run through some examples? I'm struggling to see how this can be true when for many characters, you already literally can take all of their skills, like Wurt, where you build her structures, and then reroll out of them, or where on Wolfgang you'll just... have more mighty meter. The power budgeting isn't really that tight on these trees and you already only miss some marginal benefits, outside of possibly specifically willow where you have too choose between empowered Bernie or a capstone spell.

Most of the time the skill tree is just a flavorful "choice" you have to make at the start of the game, then once the celestial portal is unlocked you have access to everything anyways.

[4Rory]

18 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

Can you run through some examples? I'm struggling to see how this can be true when for many characters, you already literally can take all of their skills, like Wurt, where you build her structures, and then reroll out of them, or where on Wolfgang you'll just... have more mighty meter. The power budgeting isn't really that tight on these trees and you already only miss some marginal benefits, outside of possibly specifically willow where you have too choose between empowered Bernie or a capstone spell.

Most of the time the skill tree is just a flavorful "choice" you have to make at the start of the game, then once the celestial portal is unlocked you have access to everything anyways.

I'm not sure how much value we gain balancing around the ability to reroll characters- that's 1) post rift, and 2) completely optional. If people want to cheese skill points that's their business IMO, not a strict balance issue. As for examples...

Wilson could have more Skill Points, it was his unique perk for a while, most aren't super busted, but then again, that's sort of Wilson's gimmick- being average.
Willow is one of the common new player "mains" skill points or no, and is already a beast in many fights with 15 points, has several unique farms available
Wolfgang remains one of the go-to's for speedrunners, and considered a good candidate for people learning game mechanics, and his simple skill tree reflects that. Could possibly benefit from a minor insight rework, but is in a good place, and more skill points just means removing the limited choice which currently exists in his gameplay.
Wendy is probably the #1 new player main, already plenty strong, skill tree gives access to her strongest effects earlier and easier, 1 more point means feeling like you get everything you really want, 2-3 more points basically means being maximum power with no downtime/investment.
Woodie would effectively always have the best form for the job with minimal downside, and be a resource gathering king.
Wigfrid is already often considered easy mode, more points means full power while also being an incredible early-mid game walking armory
Winona I admit I don't have enough experience to comment on but nobody seems to be complaining as she is
Warly doesn't have a skill tree yet but putting it on the list because I'm wishing it into existence
Wortox got an insane glow-up with his skill tree, literally 1 point is what's standing between him being able to resurrect and teleport other players at effectively no cost while keeping all of his combat skills, or all -1 and a post-rift affinity -OR- being king of exploring/healing/reviving while still having a better Dark Sword, planar affinity, and no neutral mob aggro.
Wormwood Likes all of his skills, could skip most of his skills if he wanted, I have no strong feelings towards how many points he has, but don't feel like he needs more at all either.
Wurt More skills basically means getting every boost available to the character without rerolling, already a ridiculous powerhouse once she is established.
Walter Has my current favorite skill tree, always feels impactful, while also feeling like you are making meaningful choices- more points means having the only viable ranged weapon in the game (excepting extreme long-term worlds), access to travel speeds which makes Wortox blanch, and also get crazy efficient resource gathering and support skills.

Just an abbreviated list

 

[Dyzrespect]

51 minutes ago, 4Rory said:

I'm not sure how much value we gain balancing around the ability to reroll characters- that's 1) post rift, and 2) completely optional. If people want to cheese skill points that's their business IMO, not a strict balance issue. As for examples...

Wilson could have more Skill Points, it was his unique perk for a while, most aren't super busted, but then again, that's sort of Wilson's gimmick- being average.
Willow is one of the common new player "mains" skill points or no, and is already a beast in many fights with 15 points, has several unique farms available
Wolfgang remains one of the go-to's for speedrunners, and considered a good candidate for people learning game mechanics, and his simple skill tree reflects that. Could possibly benefit from a minor insight rework, but is in a good place, and more skill points just means removing the limited choice which currently exists in his gameplay.
Wendy is probably the #1 new player main, already plenty strong, skill tree gives access to her strongest effects earlier and easier, 1 more point means feeling like you get everything you really want, 2-3 more points basically means being maximum power with no downtime/investment.
Woodie would effectively always have the best form for the job with minimal downside, and be a resource gathering king.
Wigfrid is already often considered easy mode, more points means full power while also being an incredible early-mid game walking armory
Winona I admit I don't have enough experience to comment on but nobody seems to be complaining as she is
Warly doesn't have a skill tree yet but putting it on the list because I'm wishing it into existence
Wortox got an insane glow-up with his skill tree, literally 1 point is what's standing between him being able to resurrect and teleport other players at effectively no cost while keeping all of his combat skills, or all -1 and a post-rift affinity -OR- being king of exploring/healing/reviving while still having a better Dark Sword, planar affinity, and no neutral mob aggro.
Wormwood Likes all of his skills, could skip most of his skills if he wanted, I have no strong feelings towards how many points he has, but don't feel like he needs more at all either.
Wurt More skills basically means getting every boost available to the character without rerolling, already a ridiculous powerhouse once she is established.
Walter Has my current favorite skill tree, always feels impactful, while also feeling like you are making meaningful choices- more points means having the only viable ranged weapon in the game (excepting extreme long-term worlds), access to travel speeds which makes Wortox blanch, and also get crazy efficient resource gathering and support skills.

Just an abbreviated list

 

1) It is extremely extremely not post rift lol, it's post Suspicious Boulder, which is commonly before day 30. For 99% of instances you can have Celestial Portal before a swap would even be necessary (say for getting affinity skills once you do have a rift open).
2) What does optional have to do with anything? Using the skill tree is optional, killing bosses is optional, playing the game is optional. If we're talking about "balance", being able to use all the skill points for the cost of 1 purple gem and 1 moon stone is part of the "balance".

Let's examine that with the characters you mentioned
Wilson - arguably you swap transmutation on in the instance where you want to mass transmute items/gems, simply adding on the cost if 1-2 purple gems and moon rocks, which is nothing at that point

Wolfgang - literally all you could meaningfully get is more mighty meter or more dumbell throw damage with more points, both things very unnecessary or just fun that u don't take now

Wendy - As is you can just swap on and off of the pipspook traits after you've farmed enough to last you a long time. Sure you could gimp yourself and keep them on while ur not using them... or just spend 1 purple gem and 1 moon rock and experience this "maximum power with no investment"
Woodie - using werebeaver to harvest is already a meme over just using lucy unless you have someone else picking up for you. Woodie would be one of the only ones I would consider "minmaxing" by using cele portal to swap points around for.

Wigfrid - You literally just, gain 0 benefit from leaving her beefalo skills on once you have tamed a beefalo. so the 4 points you put in there are free to remove once you have the cele portal, unless you're abusing the tier 3 skill for infinite punching bag healing.
Winona - her tree is kind of a mess anyways, and is already death by 1000 cuts, she just needs more work.
Warly - hard agree
Wortox - as it is you are just.. going to respec him at a certain point, you respec into map completion soul cost, and off of knabsack dmg boost post rift weapon, but regardless what do you gain from infinite points, just neutral naughtiness and the soul bastion perks which are already overkill when you can hold like 140 souls.
Wurt - You build all 3 of her stations then swap off, saving 6 points, then you literally can take all of her traits (and not sure if they patched it but you could also remove the 3 king upgrade traits once you gave them to him as well).
Walter - You literally gain... what.. ammo pouch, improved campfire stories, and improved pioneer hat. All things so niche you already don't even consider taking them.

Overall I just don't feel like the "choices" you make are impactful or like, satisfying, they're just at best things you annoyingly have to swap between. The real impactful choices are affinity choices, but even then you can (and in some cases probably should) use the portal to swap them depending on what you're about to fight. I think if you got an extra point for FW and CC in the world you kill them only it'd do a lot to ease the tedium of swapping for small things all the time, like transmutation for Wilson. Nobody aside from Willow becomes tangibly more "powerful" by having more points, they at worst get quirky tools they don't get to use now because they're not competitive with what people currently take.

 

[4Rory]

I give you full points that it's not post-rift, you are right, that's my bad. My point stands that as soon as you open the door to that, balance is largely meaningless. If you are using it than having more skill points available from the start won't matter because you wouldn't need it, if you are using it then having less skill points doesn't matter because you are just going to take the ones you need for a given situation anyway (to say nothing of switching to completely different characters). Of the rebuttals you offered, all but Walter hinge on going through the Celestial Postern, which as I said, basically makes more or less skill points compared to now largely meaningless. As for Walter, while there are some common builds, you clearly haven't seen the thread of people building him with nigh every possible combination. The fact that you have clear choices doesn't reflect the general consensus (also, don't sleep on the Improved Pioneer Hat- I had my doubts too but it's surprisingly good).

Yes, all skill trees, or using them at all, is optional, bosses are optional, farming is optional. That's not really the slam dunk you seem to think it is- many people enjoy pursuing any number or none of those things, and that's valid. If you are skill swapping and you find not just having all skills unlocked tedious, I sympathize, and have even suggested having a server option to increase or decrease insight point cap, but generally just increasing it across the board is a major gameplay change for people who enjoy skill trees but don't frequently character swap, yes, making characters significantly stronger (compared to 15 skills and no swap available) and effectively just removes a mid-game objective for people who do character swap, which in my opinion has the net effect of making the game worse for more people, and more significantly, than those it makes it better for. 

If you personally want more skills, I found a current, well received mod in 15 seconds, go nuts
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3370476237&

[Dyzrespect]

2 hours ago, 4Rory said:

My point stands that as soon as you open the door to that, balance is largely meaningless. If you are using it than having more skill points available from the start won't matter because you wouldn't need it, if you are using it then having less skill points doesn't matter because you are just going to take the ones you need for a given situation anyway 

You are assuming these trees are balanced around making a character overpowered if you have all of the traits. This is not the case (again, excluding Willow). They are designed such that you have interesting tradeoffs, which whether they do or not is erased by the fact that you can just respec anyways. If you could NEVER respec on a given world then I wouldn't be saying any of this.
Think of this like a skill tree in an mmo, say WoW, where you have complex and meaningful talent trees, except here you can just swap the traits around mid dungeon. People would still 100% use the traits and enjoy them, but it just adds the overhead of having to stop, switch your traits around, and then get back into things.

Skill trees have made every character a mini Winona, where you swap onto them for one thing, do that one thing, then swap off, except in this case you just swap to the same character. Swap off characters were always a "niche" problem to people who were just "minmaxing", but it was still something Klei desperately tried to fix with Winona's skill tree to lukewarm success.
 

So what do skill trees add?
- Fun progression of unlocking skills (which 90% of pc users skip)

- New content to characters
- Meaningful choices of perks to choose between (accomplished by Alignments locks and limited insight points) 

- The potential need to use celestial portal if you want to access certain perks of your character at a given time

One of those things just seems kind of pointless to me. If there is some sort of satisfaction from pretending you can't use all of the perks that I'm missing, that's on me ig.
Now is any of this a huge deal?  Not really, but I see why people just see the 15 point cap as a hinderance more than something satisfying.

3 hours ago, 4Rory said:

Yes, all skill trees, or using them at all, is optional, bosses are optional, farming is optional. That's not really the slam dunk you seem to think it is-

It was an equally asinine rebuttal to your "slam dunk" of saying using celestial portal is optional. Hyperbole. Pretending something doesn't exist doesn't validate a bad argument.

3 hours ago, 4Rory said:

If you personally want more skills, I found a current, well received mod in 15 seconds, go nuts

I personally explained how you can use the celestial portal to do exactly this, but go off ig. 

[Well-met]

being forced to choose is literally the entire point of skill trees.

[mima_]

my hot take is 16 skill point would make everything seems better .. i always 1 short of perfecting my choice of skill trees... 

[Lee Sy]

On 3/4/2025 at 6:28 PM, mima_ said:

my hot take is 16 skill point would make everything seems better .. i always 1 short of perfecting my choice of skill trees...

There should not be a unchanging number for all. We should accept that the design of skill trees varies greatly in quality, for best tress, the 15 limit has been carefully thought and Klei would make sure it's reasonable. But Klei is busy, they don't have enough time and energy to polish every skill tree. For some trees, they just make up to the number, make as many skills as possible, and mechanically assign a 15 points limit without thought. Why 15, just because the 1st tree, Wilson could only study 15 points in his tree. And is 15 really suitable for every tree? Obviously not!

压根就不应该存在一个对所有角色都固定不变的数字。我们应该承认，技能树的设计良莠不齐。对于最好的技能树而言，15个点的限制是经过深思熟虑的，科雷会确保这是合理的。但科雷很忙，他们没有充足的时间精力去打磨每一个技能树。对于部分树，他们只是在凑数，做一大堆技能，然后机械的限制15个，不加思考。为什么是15？仅仅是因为第一个技能树，威尔逊只能学习15个技能，但15适合所有的树吗，显然不是！

For some tree, 15 limit is perfect, it's greedy if you want more, but for some tree, 20 may be not enough, and for others, even 10 or 12 skills is enough.

对于一些树而言，15是完美的，如果你想要更多就太贪心了，但对于某些树，20个技能点都不够用，而对于其他树，甚至只要10到12个技能足矣。

I repeat my opinion in the end, I don't hate skill tree itself, but I strongly, extremely, highly, awfully hate skill trees that vary greatly in quality.

重申我的观点，我不讨厌技能树本身，但我极其，非常，强烈厌恶质量参差不齐的技能树。

On 3/4/2025 at 6:19 AM, Well-met said:

being forced to choose is literally the entire point of skill trees.

If the options are well-thought-out and reasonable, I'd like to be forced to choose. However, not all trees are perfect, it make no sense to limit 15 points for all trees.