Quite possibly the most tone deaf skill in the game

[AliceShiki]

2 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

Nobody is asking for powerful skills. Walter's portable campfire isnt powerful but is something funnier than simply having a filler skill like wortox's "souls come at you faster" or a downside removal like a lot of woodie's skill points

Yeah... And you're not gonna get a skill tree that has no fillers and everything feels great outside of characters that absolutely need it like Willow and Walter. It's an unrealistic expectation.

The characters people already play are going to get some skills that simply have number tweaks or small benefits on them. Because they don't need the kind of skill tree that Willow/Walter got.

Nobody was talking about powerful skills indeed. Me included.

[HowlVoid]

7 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

Aesthetic in a sandbox game is quite literally gameplay value

That's subjective.

Youre talking about the difference in textures. Textures.

There is no difference between lunar sapplings and sappligs. literally none.

None whatsoever.

If I do 1+1=2  and 0+2=2

youre arguing that 0+2=2 is gameplay value because you like the way it looks. That's subjective.

I'm arguing that because both lunar sappligs and normal sapplings have literally no difference and ocuppy the world by potentially the hundreds and are encountered within the first few seconds of gameplay. 

Then maybe, through simple objective observation we can calculate the value of this skill. Of which there is none. Well maybe the few seconds it saves you in finding a shovel. 

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

Then maybe, through simple objective observation we can calculate the value of this skill. Of which there is none. Well maybe the few seconds it saves you in finding a shovel. 

You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. The usefulness of this skill is simply subjective, this matter cannot be resolved in a truly objective matter, because it is not one. It is a skill that both you and I have deduced in our own ways, largely only relevant to the part of this game where you just kind of make stuff look pretty. To that end, it is theoretically useful in a scenario where the sapling looks pretty, which absolutely exists. It is a skill that, once again, unlocks the ability to generate blue paint in a world with quite possibly limited blue paint.

I can agree that it is not useful to you, but once again, inarguably, it has a very valid use that I can and absolutely have chosen over other skills wormwood has in several scenarios. The only hill I'm dying on is the use of the word objective. 

Barring that, I could totally agree that I feel the skill could do more, like, idk allow you to make regular saplings too. or hell, let wormwood make grass tufts as well.

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

It is a skill that, once again, unlocks the ability to generate blue paint in a world with quite possibly limited blue paint.

Theres literalily an item that already does this.

What are you talking about???

2 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I can agree that it is not useful to you, but once again, inarguably, it has a very valid use that I can and absolutely have chosen over other skills wormwood has in several scenarios. The only hill I'm dying on is the use of the word objective. 

1 minute ago, Primalflower said:

 

It really speaks volumes of the validity of this skill if the most used argument is, it's good because it exists.

This skill would be much, much better if people could acces it from a structure.

Wormwood doesn't deserve to have an entire branch dedicated to being a structure.

[Primalflower]

5 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

It really speaks volumes of the validity of this skill if the most used argument is, it's good because it exists.

I'm just going to take this as shy agreeal with my point because I have no idea how else to interpret this other than just saying you acknowledge my point but think the skill is stupid anyway which I don't completely disagree with

[Szczuku]

Amazing how only in one short year (and a half) we've managed to already have powercreep and disproportionate amount of content among the skilltrees

Both history and game dev are a flat circle I guess

[Guille6785]

22 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Amazing how only in one short year (and a half) we've managed to already have powercreep and disproportionate amount of content among the skilltrees

Both history and game dev are a flat circle I guess

did you even read the post

[Szczuku]

1 minute ago, Guille6785 said:

did you even read the post

Quickly, yes. From what I've gathered the main thing to take away is that Wormwood's skilltree has those useless branches about crafting plants and making him a 'better' farmer. I've mentioned powercreep among skilltrees since, last time I've checked the beta subforum, people were pretty pleased with the 3 new trees, that they don't suffer from the same problem as Wormwoo's

[Guille6785]

9 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Quickly, yes. From what I've gathered the main thing to take away is that Wormwood's skilltree has those useless branches about crafting plants and making him a 'better' farmer. I've mentioned powercreep among skilltrees since, last time I've checked the beta subforum, people were pretty pleased with the 3 new trees, that they don't suffer from the same problem as Wormwoo's

The post has absolutely nothing to with power creep, it even mentions that wormwood's skill tree is overall amazing, the complaints are about redundant/filler perks/branches that the developers didn't give much thought to, the OP isn't requesting wormwood to be buffed, just for things to get shuffled around or replaced

and I know you really want your imaginary power creep to be true but the newer skill trees haven't impacted characters any more than the older ones have; Wolfgang's skill tree still just turbobuffed his damage and gave him a free speed boost for basically no reason, willow and woodie's skill trees are still by far the most impactful IMO and none of them have really made any specific characters perform tasks better than characters were already able to pre-skill trees (other than winona in the late game I guess, but the devs really wanted to give her a niche since nobody liked staying as her)

[GimplyGoose]

So I disagree with you on this in a pretty fundamental way.

I think the sapling craft skill is fine. Is it weak? I would say yes. But personally, I don't think every skill should be strong. I also think skills with niche uses should exist.

Anecdote time:

A few months back, I played Wormwood with all of the plant crafting skills with the goal of leaving as much of the natural environment intact as I could. Among other self-imposed restrictions, I didn't allow myself to dig any saplings, grass tufts, or berry bushes. Being able to craft my own saplings was helpful with this and I had fun playing the game that way.

I likely never would have even thought to play the game this way without the plant crafting branch of Wormwood's skill tree. So the plant crafting branch and the sapling crafting skill, specifically, caused me to have a novel experience with DST.

[HowlVoid]

9 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

So I disagree with you on this in a pretty fundamental way.

I think the sapling craft skill is fine. Is it weak? I would say yes. But personally, I don't think every skill should be strong. I also think skills with niche uses should exist.

Anecdote time:

A few months back, I played Wormwood with all of the plant crafting skills with the goal of leaving as much of the natural environment intact as I could. Among other self-imposed restrictions, I didn't allow myself to dig any saplings, grass tufts, or berry bushes. Being able to craft my own saplings was helpful with this and I had fun playing the game that way.

I likely never would have even thought to play the game this way without the plant crafting branch of Wormwood's skill tree. So the plant crafting branch and the sapling crafting skill, specifically, caused me to have a novel experience with DST.

Would this way of playing have changed if the sappling crafting was available to everyone via a plant crafting structure?

What's more, why should this "niche" way of playing only be restricted to wormwood?

Based on your description this had less to do with the character itself and more to do with a self imposed challenge. 

Would more venues of similar experiences not open up if it could be done with more characters? 

Also what you're describing is called a "nomadic" playstyle and it has been done way before don't starve was even multiplayer.

[Castiliano]

The only good thing about these skill trees having a horrible half is the ease of choosing the other side.

[GimplyGoose]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Would this way of playing have changed if the sappling crafting was available to everyone via a plant crafting structure?

The way I see it, the plant crafts work as Wormwood skills and I think that something would be lost if it was just a generic plant crafting structure instead of something inherit to a character.

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

What's more, why should this "niche" way of playing only be restricted to wormwood?

Would more venues of similar experiences not open up if it could be done with more characters? 

I don't think this way of playing is restricted to Wormwood because of his skill, he just has a few skills you can take that have some benefits for this (and other) playstyles.

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Based on your description this had less to do with the character itself and more to do with a self imposed challenge.

Also what you're describing is called a "nomadic" playstyle and it has been done way before don't starve was even multiplayer.

I wasn't playing "nomadic", I just left a lot of the generated world intact. I still built a base, killed bosses, etc. I probably won't go back to playing that way either, but it was a novel experience at the time and I had to change the way I played a bit to accommodate the world. For me, if I play a game the same way all the time, it gets stale, but if you mix it up, it keeps things fresh. Wormwood's plant crafting let me mix it up a little. At the end of the day, that was just me giving a bit of personal feedback on how I had fun with that skill you have sort of claimed to be irredeemable.

If you are playing DST and wanting to be efficient and not playing with restrictions, I agree with you that the plant crafting branch on Wormwood is not worth investing your insight into. That doesn't mean I think they should change how it works. I think that weak skills should exist. If Klei were to completely remove the plant crafting branch, it would be best if it were replaced with an equally weak branch of skills.

I think this is why I fundamentally disagree with you on this. I don't get the impression that you would be any happier if the plant crafting branch got replaced by a set of skills that were even more niche or even more useless for regular play. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

[HowlVoid]

46 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

I think this is why I fundamentally disagree with you on this. I don't get the impression that you would be any happier if the plant crafting branch got replaced by a set of skills that were even more niche or even more useless for regular play. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

Actually, and I've said this before on the beta branch I would be happy if the branch was replaced with: absolutely nothing.

I'll make a post on it because it deserves it own post but I don't want the skill tree buffed at all. 

It mostly has to do with the restriction bottle neck of 5 points on the affinity skills on the farm side of the tree. As you put it, that branch best shines under certain conditions such as mega basing, challenges, etc. But for the rest of normal gameplay I think the "mushroom" branch lends itself to be more practical for extended gameplay.

My goal is to expose this branch, as you may agree with me, to be weak. Wormwood can already obtain every optimal damage type skill with the current 15 points (saladmanders, lunar guardian 2, and bramble husk specialist). My goal is to open the tree to more combinations by removing the 5 point requirement on either half.

Wether that is by removing this branch or exposing how impractical it is for extended/traditional gameplay.

That is the bare minum I ask of the developers so people can experiment with more none-optimal collection of skills. (If better skills replace them... well that's another conversation entirely that the community can have with klei if anything is even done at all)

[WilsonHiggs]

7 hours ago, Primalflower said:

Aesthetic in a sandbox game is quite literally gameplay value

Without regrowth there is no other way to get more lunar saplings, much less in as controlled of a fashion even with regrowth turned on - inarguably, this presents a use for the skill that a player (such as myself) could find eons more important than X or Y from that tree. The word objective does not apply here

The problem is that you can basically pick that branch perks only when you are about to craft a bunch of plants while the rest of the time are completely useless. Why i would pick 4 skills to craft a bunch of plants if im only doing it every many seasons? Even i dont craft in bulk, these perks are useless 90% of the time. Wouldn't be a problem if they were compressed into 2 skills and they add another skills to fill that spots 

Wouldn't be as bad if wasnt because his affinities in the left side needs a bunch of skill points from that side

[Valase]

22 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

1. What did it allow that pushed Klei over the edge to remove it?

You could feed the lightbulb bugs forever. Also, it was really grating on the ears after some time.

[Cheggf]

5 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

So I disagree with you on this in a pretty fundamental way.

I think the sapling craft skill is fine. Is it weak? I would say yes. But personally, I don't think every skill should be strong. I also think skills with niche uses should exist.

Anecdote time:

A few months back, I played Wormwood with all of the plant crafting skills with the goal of leaving as much of the natural environment intact as I could. Among other self-imposed restrictions, I didn't allow myself to dig any saplings, grass tufts, or berry bushes. Being able to craft my own saplings was helpful with this and I had fun playing the game that way.

I likely never would have even thought to play the game this way without the plant crafting branch of Wormwood's skill tree. So the plant crafting branch and the sapling crafting skill, specifically, caused me to have a novel experience with DST.

I don't think anyone wants Wormwood to be unable to craft that useless item, I think they just want that part of his skill tree to not suck so much. Would you be opposed to the cosmetic megabase not-actually-helping-you-play-as-Wormwood part of the skill tree being consolidated from 5 different perks into 1 or 2? It would still be really niche and not very good. I might make the plants if it only cost 1 point, but I'm not dedicating more than an entire third of my build to these silly crafts that aren't fun to use or particularly helpful. 

[aidankocherhans]

They probably need to change the cost so it only uses one or two twigs and add another cost, as it is you need 6 whole harvests to start benefiting from the skill, and digging up saplings is the easier and faster option

[MA7xGE]

On 2/18/2025 at 4:23 AM, HowlVoid said:

1. A skill for the character that doesn't heal from food to be able to catch butterflies

Wormwood is a great support character. This makes it easier to help those who could benefit from a continuous supply of +8hp. Not everyone plays the game solo.

[Anis5240]

4 minutes ago, MA7xGE said:

support character

do you know what I think? I think relegating characters to "main" and "support" roles just gonna hurt people's perspectives on them.

 

[MA7xGE]

2 hours ago, Anis5240 said:

do you know what I think? I think relegating characters to "main" and "support" roles just gonna hurt people's perspectives on them.

 

You have all rights to thinking that way, but i don't see it that black and white. Instead, it seems that the discussion so far focuses on the solo experience, which is a little backwards for a game made for SHARED adventures. Not everyone is a pro, but more experienced players play an important part in making new players feel welcomed in this COOPERATIVE game. When it comes to  Don't Starve Together, most players play it WITH SOMEONE.

 

Wormwood is a great character for all skill levels. This one skill may look useless in the vice eyes of a speedrunning megabase pro, but it can be really useful in many situations - for example when introducing the game to someone new, who keeps losing health - which is quite common with new players. Character synergy and cooperation have been the key items of the game from the very start, and they are extremely present even after all massive changes we have had the joy of going through.

 

I'm not saying "wööwöö this skill is the corner stone of my wellbeing". I'm not saying anything else that I'm not saying, either. Just trying to shine a light towards the average player experience, and the fact that not everyone is an enthusiast.