"Player Tag" Abigail is even more a poorly designed mechanic.

[Jakepeng99]

I admire they tried to balance it, but balance is not the only problem. Its also the design which is now the main problem.

 

Only the most knowledged players will know which creatures deal extra damage to mobs since its a hidden statistic that is inconsistent, as some bosses dont even have it. Some random mobs like rooks have it too.

Now with the downside of healing, this design problem is much worse. You need to which mobs do extra mob damage or you are heavily penalised. Even if you know which mobs have extra mob damage, it is still such a messy and inconsistent mechanic that was meant to balance battles of mobs vs mobs, nothing more.

 

My suggestion would be replacing it with Abigail having like 50% damage reduction for all damage dealt above a certain threshold, instead of this player tag stuff. This would be much more explanatory, and player friendly.

 

Edit: Read the post below for better context on how this works, but my opinion is the same i still dislike this skill.

[Dingle]

9 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I admire they tried to balance it, but balance is not the only problem. Its also the design which is now the main problem.

 

Only the most knowledged players will know which creatures deal extra damage to mobs since its a hidden statistic that is inconsistent, as some bosses dont even have it. Some random mobs like rooks have it too.

Now with the downside of healing, this design problem is much worse. You need to which mobs do extra mob damage or you are heavily penalised. Even if you know which mobs have extra mob damage, it is still such a messy and inconsistent mechanic that was meant to balance battles of mobs vs mobs, nothing more.

 

My suggestion would be replacing it with Abigail having like 50% damage reduction for all damage dealt above a certain threshold, instead of this player tag stuff. This would be much more explanatory, and player friendly.

There was news on the player tag for bosses. It turns out almost every boss supports sisturn 3. Exceptions:

Shadow pieces. Toadstool boomshrooms (stomp counts). Possessed Varg.

Realizing this, my problems with sisturn 3 disappeared. Really, it means the only thing sisturn 3 doesn't work on is shadow pieces.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

There was news on the player tag for bosses. It turns out almost every boss supports sisturn 3. Exceptions:

Shadow pieces. Toadstool boomshrooms (stomp counts). Possessed Varg.

Realizing this, my problems with sisturn 3 disappeared. Really, it means the only thing sisturn 3 doesn't work on is shadow pieces.

They could probably buff the healing slightly, but yes, I agree.

[RussoDaFederal]

22 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I admire they tried to balance it, but balance is not the only problem. Its also the design which is now the main problem.

 

Only the most knowledged players will know which creatures deal extra damage to mobs since its a hidden statistic that is inconsistent, as some bosses dont even have it. Some random mobs like rooks have it too.

Now with the downside of healing, this design problem is much worse. You need to which mobs do extra mob damage or you are heavily penalised. Even if you know which mobs have extra mob damage, it is still such a messy and inconsistent mechanic that was meant to balance battles of mobs vs mobs, nothing more.

 

My suggestion would be replacing it with Abigail having like 50% damage reduction for all damage dealt above a certain threshold, instead of this player tag stuff. This would be much more explanatory, and player friendly.

Nah, leave it like that, it's funnier this way. Sisturn 3 went from double healing to sub-standard healing against bosses* and worse healing for everything else. Weirdest trade off I've ever seen.

*disclaimer: might not apply to all bosses. /j

[Steorra]

I would definitely agree with Jakepeng99 in beta branch this time! Yes for the design aspect, the effect of player tag is weird and confusing for average players. They need extremely deep knowledge of the game to find out how this Blessed Sisturn III working.

However, it seems we have few chance to change this design now. It seems our devs have definitely confidence with this design, especially for the story aspect (due to the new animation of Abi from Sisturn III). And this might hint that the story video of this skill tree update was already in progress. It's quite hard to ask Klei to rework a story video of this update. I feel sorry for sharing my negative opinions.

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I admire they tried to balance it, but balance is not the only problem. Its also the design which is now the main problem.

 

Only the most knowledged players will know which creatures deal extra damage to mobs since its a hidden statistic that is inconsistent, as some bosses dont even have it. Some random mobs like rooks have it too.

Now with the downside of healing, this design problem is much worse. You need to which mobs do extra mob damage or you are heavily penalised. Even if you know which mobs have extra mob damage, it is still such a messy and inconsistent mechanic that was meant to balance battles of mobs vs mobs, nothing more.

 

My suggestion would be replacing it with Abigail having like 50% damage reduction for all damage dealt above a certain threshold, instead of this player tag stuff. This would be much more explanatory, and player friendly.

The rooks also don't actually change based on player tag:

So with that and the below post, there's not really much of a concern anymore for the bosses or the random mobs.  I too initially thought it was an issue, but it turns out to not really be one at all.

51 minutes ago, Dingle said:

There was news on the player tag for bosses. It turns out almost every boss supports sisturn 3. Exceptions:

Shadow pieces. Toadstool boomshrooms (stomp counts). Possessed Varg.

Realizing this, my problems with sisturn 3 disappeared. Really, it means the only thing sisturn 3 doesn't work on is shadow pieces.

 

[Steorra]

9 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The rooks also don't actually change based on player tag:

So with that and the below post, there's not really much of a concern anymore for the bosses or the random mobs.  I too initially thought it was an issue, but it turns out to not really be one at all.

 

I would still argue that if it's reasonable to keep player tag effect from against rooks. 

Someone mentioned that it would be inconvenient if you have to build a Sisturn in front of the ruin and have to prepare lune blossoms here for ruin + NMWP or AFW + ruin cleaning line in early game.

[Koomin]

Just now, Steorra said:

I would still argue that if it's reasonable to keep player tag effect from against rooks. 

Someone mentioned that it would be inconvenient if you have to build a Sisturn in front of the ruin and have to prepare lune blossoms here for ruin + NMWP or AFW + ruin cleaning line in early game.

I honestly don't care either way about player tag against rooks, but it is a bit entertaining how:

-there are people upset you don't get the player tag against the rooks

-also people upset that you do get the player tag against the rooks (even though you actually don't)

[DVGMedia]

Its a cool idea the concept they want to apply however I think it would be much better if they had something that was more generally postiive than player tag becuse it relies on a mechanic that is not consistent. especially  since players are normally never going to know that it was a thing

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Its a cool idea the concept they want to apply however I think it would be much better if they had something that was more generally postiive than player tag becuse it relies on a mechanic that is not consistent. especially  since players are normally never going to know that it was a thing

In game description on the perk seems pretty accurate now.

[DVGMedia]

7 minutes ago, Dingle said:

In game description on the perk seems pretty accurate now.

well ive already said my piece on all this. both here and on the discord.
Ive wanted this skill to be something that is more available to players without needing to jump through hoops. But im just not going to win that.  the wanna do what they want. and so Its just going to be something that isn't going to be used and thats all i can do.

[SilverSpoon]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

I would still argue that if it's reasonable to keep player tag effect from against rooks. 

Someone mentioned that it would be inconvenient if you have to build a Sisturn in front of the ruin and have to prepare lune blossoms here for ruin + NMWP or AFW + ruin cleaning line in early game.

I think this isn't a player tag issue, it's the issue that Rook deals ridiculous damage of over 4x to non-player tagged mobs. How would a casual player feel about a Dangling Depth Dweller getting run over in one hit by a Rook dealing 45 damage to Webber?

I have mixed feelings about to make Rook be no longer the Abigail killer. "Ruin cleaning power" is a middling important factor in a character's balance, and if Abigail is resistant to Rook, Wendy will be promoted from B- tier to A tier in "Ruin cleaning power" (S tier is for characters who are also good at resource gathering like Wolfgang, C tier is for Wilson). In that case, other factors will be suppressed to balance with other characters, but that may not be happy for Wendy players so maybe it's okay not to increase "Ruin cleaning power", and I think it would be clearer to leave it as "Sistern III only increases defense against bosses."

So what I'm trying to say is DON'T STOLE JOB OF WOODIE WHO IS SSSSSSSSS TIER!1!11!!! that it might not be good for Wendy that Abigail be strong against Rook.

[Tranoze]

3 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

My suggestion would be replacing it with Abigail having like 50% damage reduction for all damage dealt above a certain threshold, instead of this player tag stuff. This would be much more explanatory, and player friendly.

Let say 50% DR above 100 damage.

Mobs/Bosses that deal 100 damage keep dealing 100 damage.

Mobs/Bosses deal 120 damage now deal 60 damage....

 

I wonder if there was a system that reduce damage more base on the damage it deal instead of threshold.

Oh there is. It called planar entity,

[DaDa_waw]

The idea that catches the eye is that we have been focusing on the terrible topic of fake player tags for too long, carving too much on a piece of rotten wood is futile. It is correct to use new ideas to change the status quo.
However, with this threshold design, as mentioned earlier, surface entity resistance is indeed a ready-made threshold design.

[Jakepeng99]

16 hours ago, Dingle said:

There was news on the player tag for bosses. It turns out almost every boss supports sisturn 3. Exceptions:

Shadow pieces. Toadstool boomshrooms (stomp counts). Possessed Varg.

Realizing this, my problems with sisturn 3 disappeared. Really, it means the only thing sisturn 3 doesn't work on is shadow pieces.

Thanks for the new information, but i still dislike this skill for the same reasons.

16 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Nah, leave it like that, it's funnier this way. Sisturn 3 went from double healing to sub-standard healing against bosses* and worse healing for everything else. Weirdest trade off I've ever seen.

Its so un userfriendly.

12 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Let say 50% DR above 100 damage.

Mobs/Bosses that deal 100 damage keep dealing 100 damage.

Mobs/Bosses deal 120 damage now deal 60 damage....

 

I wonder if there was a system that reduce damage more base on the damage it deal instead of threshold.

Oh there is. It called planar entity,

This is poor math and implementation on your part.

For example, the threshold could be 30 damage. If Abigail takes 100 damage, she would not take 50 damage, but instead take 65 damage since it wont include the damage below the threshold.

[DemolidorB]

17 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I admire they tried to balance it, but balance is not the only problem. Its also the design which is now the main problem.

 

Only the most knowledged players will know which creatures deal extra damage to mobs since its a hidden statistic that is inconsistent, as some bosses dont even have it. Some random mobs like rooks have it too.

Now with the downside of healing, this design problem is much worse. You need to which mobs do extra mob damage or you are heavily penalised. Even if you know which mobs have extra mob damage, it is still such a messy and inconsistent mechanic that was meant to balance battles of mobs vs mobs, nothing more.

 

My suggestion would be replacing it with Abigail having like 50% damage reduction for all damage dealt above a certain threshold, instead of this player tag stuff. This would be much more explanatory, and player friendly.

 

Edit: Read the post below for better context on how this works, but my opinion is the same i still dislike this skill.

Could someone explain to me what this “Player Tag” is?

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

This is poor math and implementation on your part.

Ah.. math... No, no way, is this a dream of that there's a merm who mastered the math? (Joking)

 

10 minutes ago, DemolidorB said:

Could someone explain to me what this “Player Tag” is?

This post should be considered carefully by those who support the current Sisturn III.

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, DemolidorB said:

Could someone explain to me what this “Player Tag” is?

Slme Bosses or mobs do less damage to players than mobs.

[Tranoze]

10 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

If Abigail takes 100 damage, instead take 65 damage

Maybe just completely remove player tags mechanic and lower boss damage to everything. I wonder why tf player tag was there in first place?
Boss vs bosses are taking too long? It should be as boss vs boss is free loot for you.
People just hire mobs to kill bosses? What wrong with that? you still need resources to hire mobs.

[Bumber64]

3 hours ago, Tranoze said:

People just hire mobs to kill bosses? What wrong with that? you still need resources to hire mobs.

There's no cost to having hostile mobs fight bosses. Hound mounds, tentacles, spiders, etc.

 

[Steorra]

4 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Maybe just completely remove player tags mechanic and lower boss damage to everything. I wonder why tf player tag was there in first place?
Boss vs bosses are taking too long? It should be as boss vs boss is free loot for you.
People just hire mobs to kill bosses? What wrong with that? you still need resources to hire mobs.

The specific damage amplifier of different bosses was a base kit of DST, and it has already existed for long time. Some of us was used to the mechanic of it.

 

If to give a big change to the bosses damage amplifier for only a potential improvement of Sisturn III, it might caused a mess to both experienced players and inexperienced players (for who has found some strategies based on the mechanic but still know lesser about the details).

 

I guess we could found other potential possibility for the improvement, but not this one. This change would be far worse than the suggestion of changing CureAll recipe

[Tranoze]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

There's no cost to having hostile mobs fight bosses. Hound mounds, tentacles, spiders, etc.

 

So deerclops just spawn next to hound mounds, dies, then hound eat the eyeball, rite?

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

The specific damage amplifier of different bosses was a base kit of DST

It was base kit of DS. Going to DST, all bosses have their health doubled, with their damage to bosses unchanged.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

2025年1月25日上午5点10分，Jakepeng99说：

我钦佩他们试图平衡它，但平衡不是唯一的问题。这也是设计，现在是主要问题。

 

只有最有知识的玩家才会知道哪些生物对暴徒造成额外伤害，因为这是一个不一致的隐藏统计数据，因为一些老板甚至没有它。一些像鲁克这样的随机暴徒也有它。

现在，随着愈合的缺点，这个设计问题要严重得多。你需要哪些暴徒造成额外的暴徒伤害，否则你会受到重罚。即使你知道哪些暴徒有额外的暴徒伤害，它仍然是一个混乱和不一致的机制，旨在平衡暴徒与暴徒的战斗，不过。

 

我的建议是用Abigail代替它，Abigail对超过一定阈值的所有伤害减少50%的伤害，而不是这个玩家标签的东西。这将更具解释性，对玩家更友好。

 

编辑：阅读下面的帖子，以更好地了解它是如何工作的，但我的意见是一样的，我仍然不喜欢这项技能。

I agree with your idea.

I think we can have another better way to replace this player tag to increase the survival space of Abi.

[Jakepeng99]

10 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Maybe just completely remove player tags mechanic and lower boss damage to everything. I wonder why tf player tag was there in first place?
Boss vs bosses are taking too long? It should be as boss vs boss is free loot for you.
People just hire mobs to kill bosses? What wrong with that? you still need resources to hire mobs.

This is a detremential and one eyed idea, one that would ruin the game as It exists for balance.

 

You are more than doubling the power of every follower in the game. This is not a sane thing to implement.

[Tranoze]

50 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

You are more than doubling the power of every follower in the game. This is not a sane thing to implement.

Klei halve the power of every single follower in the game when they double the hp of all bosses when going from DS to DST. Soo...

Again what i say is that player tag is a poorly designed mechanic. New planar enemies are kinda immune to player tags as they reduce damage the more damage boss deal.
Merm has to have insanely high amount of hp because player tag is a thing and merm die too easy to boss.

Remove player tags and lower merm hp a little bit (so they can fight fair vs pig instead of 1 merm can solo multiple pigs.) What the point of war when merm just straight up stronger when merm king is around and pig kings does nothing for the pigs.