Collating Direct Implementation of suggestions from the forum in Wendy's skill tree

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Though, I personally still could understand that it might be just a concept pre-show for beta version.

Tbh I have lesser worries about Abi's aesthetic work, the appearance of Shadow Abi was already detailed now and it's satisfying enough for me. I'm glad to see what details would changes in future for the aesthetic we discussed above.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Ehh.. i was never noticed it and simply thought it was a glitch of screenshots. If that's the effect of current aesthetics of Abi, I would say no to it...

It's went a bit far on showing how rough the work is. More like how the appearance Shadow Abi has from the beginning.

 

Though, I personally still could understand that it might be just a concept pre-show for beta version.

Yes I shared similar feelings with you. I was thought it was just an animation bug of the screenshot, never imagined that was a thing in current beta version.

As I said, I think they're going for a particular effect with the flickering in and out of her human form, but there's always room for improvement.

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Tbh I have lesser worries about Abi's aesthetic work, the appearance of Shadow Abi was already detailed now and it's satisfying enough for me. I'm glad to see what details would changes in future for the aesthetic we discussed above.

I've noticed you reply to yourself when you want to elaborate, did you know you can edit posts?

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I've noticed you reply to yourself when you want to elaborate, did you know you can edit posts?

I know and I was used to did this before. But sometimes people would ignored what I elaborated by editing so... 

If it bothered you I'm sorry.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

I know and I was used to did this before. But sometimes people would ignored what I elaborated by editing so... 

If it bothered you I'm sorry.

No that's fair enough, just wasn't sure if you were aware.

[Yaorin yon]

22 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

That's fair enough, maybe you could make a post with more detailed suggestions on how you'd improve the idle animation? After all, shadow Abigail got a slick new aesthetic this update too. Making constructive and reasonable suggestions is more condusive to success than calling the dev's work a mockery.

But keep in mind that the mutated mobs were like... 99% of Host of Horrors, so expecting them to be on par with that is a bit much. This is one skill, of one characters tree, in an update with 3 trees.

I think something like most survivors unique idle animations would be more reasonable

The reason why many people are starting to mock now is because they tried their best to give suggestions before, only to receive disappointing responses time and time again, just like today's update log. (By the way, the Year of the Snake and the Worm are completely different, which is not pleasing at all). I don't deny that giving suggestions would be more useful under normal circumstances, but looking at it now, KLei has proven to us with his nearly 6-month work experience that it is reasonable for KLei to be insulted.  ;(

I suspect that their leaders may have arrogantly treated the proposers' efforts.

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

The reason why many people are starting to mock now is because they tried their best to give suggestions before, only to receive disappointing responses time and time again, just like today's update log. (By the way, the Year of the Snake and the Worm are completely different, which is not pleasing at all). I don't deny that giving suggestions would be more useful under normal circumstances, but looking at it now, KLei has proven to us with his nearly 6-month work experience that it is reasonable for KLei to be insulted.  ;(

I suspect that their leaders may have arrogantly treated the proposers' efforts.

It's never reasonable to insult the developers. Not here. You can critique their work, but insulting them isn't constructive or fair. To do so necessitates so many assumptions on their timeline, vision, and more. Remember, they spent like 3 weeks having a holiday. This isn't "a month's work," it's closer to two weeks work, while developing another update simultaneously.

I also can't really get behind that, when these sorts of threads have been a recurring feature of every. single. update. in this beta.

 

[Yaorin yon]

10 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

It's never reasonable to insult the developers. Not here. You can critique their work, but insulting them isn't constructive or fair. To do so necessitates so many assumptions on their timeline, vision, and more. Remember, they spent like 3 weeks having a holiday. This isn't "a month's work," it's closer to two weeks work, while developing another update simultaneously.

I also can't really get behind that, when these sorts of threads have been a recurring feature ofevery. single. update. in this beta.

 

I always lean towards' teeth for teeth, eyes for eyes'. If KLei shows enough sincerity, the player community will naturally make suggestions seriously and responsibly, and vice versa. Persisting in the idea that "no matter how poorly the developer does, cursing is wrong" seems more like a "correct nonsense divorced from reality" in my opinion. The fundamental interests among players are unified, and as long as the goal is the same, there is no absolute right or wrong in the way, only firmness and gentleness.

[WenericMember]

Just now, Yaorin yon said:

I always lean towards' teeth for teeth, eyes for eyes'. If KLei shows enough sincerity, the player community will naturally make suggestions seriously and responsibly, and vice versa. Persisting in the idea that "no matter how poorly the developer does, cursing is wrong" seems more like a "correct nonsense that is detached from reality" in my opinion. The fundamental interests among players are unified, and as long as the goal is the same, there is no true right or wrong.

Then I guess we can't agree on this.

For things with real world consequences? Sure, people should be criticized for enabling real-world harm. But this is a video game, a creative medium with no objective correct answer.

[Yaorin yon]

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Then I guess we can't agree on this.

For things with real world consequences? Sure, people should be criticized for enabling real-world harm. But this is a video game, a creative medium with no objective correct answer.

It's okay, disagreements are normal. As long as we both want the game to be more fun, that's enough.

[Dingle]

Don't have the actual source thread handy, but to add: it looks like a lot of bosses had a player tag added. A lot of them previously seemed to ignore it.

Thread that talks about this second-hand:

 

 

[congrongfuguo]

7 hours ago, Yaorin yon said:

It's okay, disagreements are normal. As long as we both want the game to be more fun, that's enough.

7 hours ago, WenericMember said:

It's never reasonable to insult the developers. Not here. You can critique their work, but insulting them isn't constructive or fair. To do so necessitates so many assumptions on their timeline, vision, and more. Remember, they spent like 3 weeks having a holiday. This isn't "a month's work," it's closer to two weeks work, while developing another update simultaneously.

I also can't really get behind that, when these sorts of threads have been a recurring feature of every. single. update. in this beta.

 

I have finished the entire discussion, and your rationality and patience are admirable. I think communication is still effective, and we can find a suitable cooperation state.

 

And what I want to know is if there are structural problems with the skill tree, or if we want to make suggestions in this area, is it still meaningful now

 

It seems that even many people who are satisfied with the current tree will not refuse some interesting changes.

 

For example, regarding the content of pipspook, I mentioned a relatively complex modification plan when communicating with others. The other party's opinion was that it was interesting and expressed support, but Klei didn't have time to make the changes. which is a reason I have heard more than once, and everyone unconsciously takes it as a premise when discussing it. We tend to only make changes for each individual skill point.

 

But currently, apart from the discussion on balance, the most opposing opinion is that Wendy's tree is boring. Does klei have any precedent for resolving issues that may involve significant adjustments?

 

[Cassielu]

On 1/24/2025 at 1:44 PM, WenericMember said:

Unless I'm misreading it, you directly asked for Blessed Sisturn, Grave Relocation & Graves By Wendy, and Team Spirit to be merged.

Yes Team spirit wasn't merged in the way you hoped. but I don't think it's inclusion is unfair.

• Original Blessed Sisturn III and Blessed Sisturn IV at that time was extra overhealth, they didn't merged, its just removed. Also my suggestion was to merge BS 1 and 2, I explained why. Now they are still there, and it hasn't any changed to address the problems I mentioned.
• Graves' merge suggestion is a request for don't to create a skill that almost only useful to megabaser (they'll just use the portal change skills anyway), and don't to let Wendy have two grave structures at once. Clearly neither has been resolved.
• TS III and IV... you are talking about it, it is unfair but that's the whole point. The changes TS gets are even the opposite of what I asked for, Instead of becoming more concise and learning-driven, it is more unnecessary complexity that increases the cost of learning without increasing learning outcomes.

The only thing in common between the updates we get and what I'm asking for is "free more insight point," which is unfortunately the least important thing of these. (To be honest, I hardly thought about this when I wrote that topic, just feels awful to have so much repetition of skill itself. You can also see that I have never said anything like "too many skills, too few points" since beta.)

[cloudf]

On 1/24/2025 at 5:16 PM, WenericMember said:

It's never reasonable to insult the developers. Not here. You can critique their work, but insulting them isn't constructive or fair

I generally agree with this stance, however, let's imagine an extreme scenario: Sony remakes Bloodborne into a gacha game. People will insult Sony just like water will flow. So I guess it just boils down to where you draw the line, like most ethical questions (I'm not saying the line couldn't be objective or imply moral relativism here).

I'm not saying it is the case here though, I really don't know which side is right nowadays.

[Chewabacca]

Just now, cloudf said:

I generally agree with this stance, however, let's imagine an extreme scenario: Sony remakes Bloodborne into a gacha game. People will insult Sony just like water will flow. So I guess it just boils down to where you draw the line, like most ethical question (I'm not saying the line couldn't be objective or imply moral relativism here).

I'm not saying it is the case here though, I really don't know which side is right nowadays.

I mean, I think an important aspect of that is that it's Sony getting insulted, not any one member of Sony (well, except the CEO, I imagine). People keep calling for Jason's blood as if he's an evil mastermind trying to ruin Wendy.

[cloudf]

Just now, Chewabacca said:

I mean, I think an important aspect of that is that it's Sony getting insulted, not any one member of Sony (well, except the CEO, I imagine). People keep calling for Jason's blood as if he's an evil mastermind trying to ruin Wendy.

Thank you, that makes sense to me.

[Steorra]

20 minutes ago, cloudf said:

moral relativism

I personally have no idea what's wrong with this, especially by logical aspects.

It obviously that the forum of Klei has a different standard with Chinese and Japanese culture for many things including moral issues. I.E. to call one's name especially to a dev of a game could be a harmless joke in some situations for Chinese and Japanese, but to call one's name in English culture would definitely being an aggressive action for most people. It's obviously the moral relativism is working here. 

[Yifei_]

35 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

I mean, I think an important aspect of that is that it's Sony getting insulted, not any one member of Sony (well, except the CEO, I imagine). People keep calling for Jason's blood as if he's an evil mastermind trying to ruin Wendy.

I believe this is because players are extremely dissatisfied with Wendy's skill tree, but quite satisfied with Wortorx's skill tree. As a result, some players have simply chosen Wendy's designer as the target for their emotional venting.

After a month of feedback and waiting, the final outcome was quite disappointing, with many valuable suggestions being ignored. This is why many players are extremely angry.

Whether personal attacks are justified can be debated, but I understand the dissatisfaction and anger within the player community.

我认为这是因为玩家对于温蒂的技能树极其不满，而对于小恶魔的技能树却相当满意。所以部分玩家选择了杰森作为情绪宣泄的对象。

在经历了长达一个月的反馈与等待后，最终结果让人相当失望，相当多有价值的反馈被忽略。这便是为什么很多玩家非常生气的原因。

过激的人身攻击是否合理这个问题可以商榷，但我很理解玩家社区的不满与怒火。

[Guille6785]

3 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

I believe this is because players are extremely dissatisfied with Wendy's skill tree, but quite satisfied with Wortorx's skill tree. As a result, some players have simply chosen Wendy's designer as the target for their emotional venting.

After a month of feedback and waiting, the final outcome was quite disappointing, with many valuable suggestions being ignored. This is why many players are extremely angry.

Whether extreme personal attacks are justified can be debated, but I understand the dissatisfaction and anger within the player community.

(this isn't helping your cause)

[Well-met]

there is literally no situation where intimidating a specific dev is ever acceptable or justified.

If you are angry at klei, be angry at klei as a whole.

[DaDa_waw]

32 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

(this isn't helping your cause)

(This is not helping cheaters )

[Chewabacca]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

I believe this is because players are extremely dissatisfied with Wendy's skill tree, but quite satisfied with Wortorx's skill tree. As a result, some players have simply chosen Wendy's designer as the target for their emotional venting.

After a month of feedback and waiting, the final outcome was quite disappointing, with many valuable suggestions being ignored. This is why many players are extremely angry.

Whether personal attacks are justified can be debated, but I understand the dissatisfaction and anger within the player community.

我认为这是因为玩家对于温蒂的技能树极其不满，而对于小恶魔的技能树却相当满意。所以部分玩家选择了杰森作为情绪宣泄的对象。

在经历了长达一个月的反馈与等待后，最终结果让人相当失望，相当多有价值的反馈被忽略。这便是为什么很多玩家非常生气的原因。

过激的人身攻击是否合理这个问题可以商榷，但我很理解玩家社区的不满与怒火。

Even if they are frustrated, that still is no call to make personal attacks. Jason is only one member of the team working on Wendy, you have no idea what was his idea and what was someone else's, so it doesn't even make sense to blame everything on him. And besides: there are things you don't say to people's faces. If someone working at your favorite food place wants to know how asks you what about their food could use improvement, you don't tell them that they're stupid and evil even if the food is burnt to a crisp, you give them your feedback on the product. If you have to vent, do it somewhere else. I can't believe this is something I actually have to argue over.

[Yifei_]

6 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Even if they are frustrated, that still is no call to make personal attacks. Jason is only one member of the team working on Wendy, you have no idea what was his idea and what was someone else's, so it doesn't even make sense to blame everything on him. And besides: there are things you don't say to people's faces. If someone working at your favorite food place wants to know how asks you what about their food could use improvement, you don't tell them that they're stupid and evil even if the food is burnt to a crisp, you give them your feedback on the product. If you have to vent, do it somewhere else. I can't believe this is something I actually have to argue over.

This is exactly what I did. I believe that I did not use any offensive language in my recent feedback posts. I made sure that my criticism was polite and constructive. As for what other players do, I’m sorry, but I really don’t have the ability to interfere with them.

If there is any personal attack in my posts, please point it out, and I will sincerely apologize.

我就是这样做的，我相信我最近的反馈帖子中没有用到任何冒犯性的言论，我确保我的批评都是礼貌的、有建设性的。对于其他玩家怎么做，很抱歉我真的没有能力去干涉他们。

如果我的帖子中有任何人身攻击的内容，欢迎指出，我会去真诚道歉。

 

[Chewabacca]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

This is exactly what I did. I believe that I did not use any offensive language in my recent feedback posts. I made sure that my criticism was polite and constructive. As for what other players do, I’m sorry, but I really don’t have the ability to interfere with them.

If there is any personal attack in my posts, please point it out, and I will sincerely apologize.

 

I wasn't accusing you of making personal attacks, apologies if I seemed like I was. Pretty much everything I've seen from you has been respectful. I was talking more about the larger subject of personal attacks. This might also be a translation error: in English, "you" can also be used to describe how people in general act.

[Yifei_]

8 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

I wasn't accusing you of making personal attacks, apologies if I seemed like I was. Pretty much everything I've seen from you has been respectful. I was talking more about the larger subject of personal attacks. This might also be a translation error: in English, "you" can also be used to describe how people in general act.

Thank you for your explanation. Personally, I also don't like resolving issues through personal attacks. I hope Klei can face the problems in the skill tree design and make corrections, and I believe this is the best way to address these problems.