When We Call for the Removal of Necromancy Elements from Wendy's Skill Tree, What Are We Advocating For? An Attempt to Reconstruct Wendy's Skill Tree Through the Lens of Mysticism and Spirit Communication: Thoughts and Suggestions

[Koomin]

13 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

It's still irrelevant and I don't care what you read. I didn't say like this and don't know it.

I've explained in detail why these are not bad design suggestions, but your objection is just "No, bad design suggestions"?

I intentionally made these question sentence for you to prevent I declare their post "not actual QoL". Please do not let my efforts go to waste and answer my question.

I have no idea what you are talking about in most of your sentences at this point to be honest, but they seem unrelated to my point about people just spamming the phrase QoL.

I'm also not going to keep spending the time typing the same reasons why it is a bad suggestion and bad design over and over again every time you post "but it's just QoL" and declare that "no one has provided real objections".  People have made real logical objections many times even in this same thread, you just keep ignoring them and saying they didn't.  Here is a link to some by me in both this thread and another for example, not to mention many other posts by other people:

 

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

Also I don't think it's a bad design or bad suggestion too. Putting Enlightened Shards into Winona's G.E.M.erator to provide infinite power significantly reduces the effort required to play Winona, but do you think it's ruining the fun of playing Winona or making her OP? As long as the cost is reasonable, Reducing effort is QoL that improves the game.

Perhaps you'd like to stick enlightened shards in the sisturn to generate morning glory? But that means you're still stuck doing pipspook up until you've killed CC.

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

Are these not even "QoL"? Aren't they just balance changes that don't improve the player's QoL in any way, and were Klei declaring those "QoL"? And in light of the post you made, Boy oh boy! you're roasting Klei just like a part of Wendy players blamed Jason and Klei.

I guess Klei was stirring up a "Little Drama".

[SilverSpoon]

44 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I have no idea what you are talking about in most of your sentences at this point to be honest

OK...

Spoiler

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

It's still irrelevant and I don't care what you read. I didn't say like this and don't know it.

I'm irrelevant that

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

Whether you specifically said them or not, I am pointing out that people in general are declaring things QoL when they are actually just bad design suggestions is pretty common, and your post was doing the same.  It is very relevant to the discussion.

Please answer specifically why I'm wrong and what is bad

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

You declaring their post "not actual QoL"

I didn't declare

 

44 minutes ago, Koomin said:

you just keep ignoring them and saying they didn't.

Nuh. In the post you mentioned, I did it one post below.

 

44 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I'm also not going to keep spending the time typing the same reasons why it is a bad suggestion and bad design over and over again every time you post "but it's just QoL" and declare that "no one has provided real objections".

What you consider to be a bad idea or a bad suggestion has been written people spent time on it, and I respect your or anyone's objections they spent time on it to everytime and every peaple, so I spend time to write detailed and specific objections to it. However, you don't have time to write specific objections because you've already written? That's arrogant.

If you think my objection is not objection, please tell me specific what kind of objection you need.

----

9 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Perhaps you'd like to stick enlightened shards in the sisturn to generate morning glory? But that means you're still stuck doing pipspook up until you've killed CC.

I think people who want to automate morning glory will tolerate that much of cost. That's right, mate? If going creative, Enlightened Shard is already been used there, so instead use Shadow Thurible.

[Koomin]

7 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

OK...

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm irrelevant that

Please answer specifically why I'm wrong and what is bad

I didn't declare

 

Nuh. In the post you mentioned, I did it one post below.

 

What you consider to be a bad idea or a bad suggestion has been written people spent time on it, and I respect your or anyone's objections they spent time on it to everytime and every peaple, so I spend time to write detailed and specific objections to it. However, you don't have time to write specific objections because you've already written? That's arrogant.

If you think my objection is not objection, please tell me specific what kind of objection you need.

I think people who want to automate morning glory will tolerate that much of cost. If going creative, Enlightened Shard is already been used there, so instead use Shadow Thurible.

I'm sorry I legitimately cannot understand your post at this point or what you are trying to communicate. 

[SilverSpoon]

8 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I'm sorry I legitimately cannot understand your post at this point or what you are trying to communicate. 

Ugh, OK...

54 minutes ago, Koomin said:

People have made real logical objections many times even in this same thread, you just keep ignoring them and saying they didn't.

No. I've specifically objection every time. Gaslighting is bad. If my objection don't satisfy you, I'll fix and try again.

[Steorra]

19 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

If going creative, Enlightened Shard is already been used there, so instead use Shadow Thurible.

This make sense for me but due to some particular unknown reason I have a smile when I saw this idea. Nevermind.

20 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

people who want to automate morning glory

The argument is based on here - some people feels angry and dissatisfied if there's a possible change in future to make a huge percentage people who don't like interact with pipspooks could automate MGs (even with a lowest efficiency).

Then these angry people start to say "the huge percentages who don't like interact pipspooks is just simply dislike Wendy's original design, balabala, etc.

[Bumber64]

32 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I think people who want to automate morning glory will tolerate that much of cost. That's right, mate? If going creative, Enlightened Shard is already been used there, so instead use Shadow Thurible.

That's definitely more tied to funerals. How would it be used, though? It'd be weird to stick the entire thing in the sisturn. A player or mannequin has to hold it near the sisturn for some time? Or dropping it on the ground is good enough? Nightmare fuel would be required, but that's a non-issue (especially with shadow rifts active).

Maybe you could leave the thurible near a decorated grave and it just spawns them? Don't need to require petals at that point.

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

This make sense for me but due to some particular unknown reason I have a smile when I saw this idea. Nevermind.

Thank you. It's a improvisation idea, but I like it. It attracts Reanimated Skeletons, so it doesn't feel out of place in lore even if it attracts other ghosts, and Abigail might like it. I don't know about other countries, but in Japan, there is a culture of placing burning incense for remembering.

3 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

That's definitely more tied to funerals. How would it be used, though? It'd be weird to stick the entire thing in the sisturn. A player or mannequin has to hold it near the sisturn for some time? Or dropping it on the ground is good enough? Nightmare fuel would be required, but that's a non-issue (especially with shadow rifts active).

It own stands when dropped, so it could just put it next to sisturn, but it'd be awesome like this. To put by clicking on the sistern with Shadow Thurible, and to remove by hitting sistern with a hammer. Nightmare Fuel suppling is clicking on the sistern with Nightmare Fuel.

[SilverSpoon]

@Shining Galaxy, Edit:@Yaorin yon I appreciate it, but you don't have to protect me... I just take your kindness.

We've found a landing point that's acceptable to both those who agree with suggestion of Wendy and those who disagree, and we're seeing signs of moving forward in a constructive direction, so I'd be happy if guys bury the hatchet and moving forward.

[Yaorin yon]

On 1/20/2025 at 4:49 PM, Koomin said:

My point is that Klei is releasing actual QoL updates, but people are just declaring bad design suggestions "QoL" to try to defend them when they have no actual real reasoning and just want to provide as nebulous a defense as possible.

Impossible to die Abigail? -> "it's just QoL"

Automatically generated mourning glory making elixir costs irrelevant? -> "It's improving QoL"

Wolfgang DPS Wendy? -> "Why are people unhappy with QoL"?

Instant revive full health max level Abigail? -> "Guys this is just QoL why would you not want it"

All of this stuff is not QoL, it's just bad design and bad suggestions.

Actual QoL is the stuff in the Klei post you linked, that has things in the QoL section like:

"Tallbird nests are now guaranteed to be generated in new worlds." or "Merms will no longer tolerate their non-Wurt leader murdering fish."

The difference between actual QoL and the weird declarations of QoL that are actually just bad Wendy design suggestions is pretty obvious.

Linking the eerie causes and effects together to vaguely consolidate my own viewpoint is also the entirety of what I feel from your text. As for the actual reasoning part, it is so vague that it can only be searched for with a microscope. I look forward to you writing a dedicated and well founded article to call upon every piece of evidence in your speech, so that we can carefully appreciate your views on these contents. After all, condemnation has no end, and many exchanges nowadays are more like exclusionary behavior rather than a matter of fact.

[Koomin]

4 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

Linking the eerie causes and effects together to vaguely consolidate my own viewpoint is also the entirety of what I feel from your text. As for the actual reasoning part, it is so vague that it can only be searched for with a microscope. I look forward to you writing a dedicated and well founded article to call upon every piece of evidence in your speech, so that we can carefully appreciate your views on these contents. After all, condemnation has no end, and many exchanges nowadays are more like exclusionary behavior rather than a matter of fact.

Yea no problem.  I linked to them in this post below earlier in this thread since the discussion was the same and I didn't want to type it all out again since I worked hard on the other posts already. Maybe you missed them, but they are not vague or needing a microscope or exclusionary.  Feel free to look the posts over and let me know what you think:

 

[Mike23Ua]

Personally I think it’s just a misunderstanding in the idea and it’s intended presentation.

Necromancy (which Wendy is Not) and Spiritually Connected (which Wendy Is) are so similar to one another: That it’s hard to tell the two apart.

For example: Wendy can murder butterflies, but then revive them after they’re dead. Some will call this Necromancy..

But have they ever considered that maybe she’s just talking to and communicating with their spirit to be able to bring them back? 

When she commands Abigail to haunt gravesites and awaken other dead spirits, is that being nefarious and evil trying to forcefully get the dead to do her bidding??? OR is Abby just dipping down into their graves to share a cup of tea, chat for a bit and convince the ghosts to help willingly aid her and her not so dead yet sister?

When Wendy digs up and moves graves, is she moving them for her own selfish desires or MAYBE the spirit did not like where their tombstone was placed? Maybe they want to be relocated somewhere more beautiful, more peaceful, or closer to their family??

And that brings me to my final point I want to bring up: The CONSTANT the place in which we play the game in, isn’t real… it isn’t earth…. It’s a pocket dimension somewhere in between, a dimension in which there is Canonical LORE that explains before Maxwell created much of everything we see- There wasn’t much in there to begin with…

So then what even ARE Pipspook/Bigspook? Are they ghosts of other fallen survivors? Even though we have evidential proof that “dying” in the constant is seen as a funny meme of sorts- You live, you die, you live again!

So are Pipspook/BigSpook human? Are they creatures we’ve slaughtered in the constant?? Omg those poor poor Pengull  & Beefalos..

Before you can say Wendy isn’t a Necromancer, you have to understand that she’s got a hard choice right down the middle to make: Does she side with the Shadows and Charlie… or the Moon & Wagstaff..

is Charlie even the bad guy here? Sure she’s made out to be that way.. but she’s also seen ending a Catcoons existence when it tries to eat Abigail’s flower.

Then there’s Wagstaff… he seems to be the “good guy” but then what does Lunar Rifts and siding with the moon even do? Oh yeah that’s right… it creates undead Zombiefied penguins, horror hounds, and even reanimated possessed corpses of the bosses we just killed..

[Steorra]

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But have they ever considered that maybe she’s just talking to and communicating with their spirit to be able to bring them back? 

Someone already mentioned that to trap some dead spirit into reality realm is just a selfish action. Yes Wendy did this to Abi because of her sadness. But I don't think Wendy would do same thing to other spirits even just a butterfly.

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And that brings me to my final point I want to bring up: The CONSTANT the place in which we play the game in, isn’t real… it isn’t earth…. It’s a pocket dimension somewhere in between, a dimension in which there is Canonical LORE that explains before Maxwell created much of everything we see- There wasn’t much in there to begin with…

And this makes no sense in this discussion. I think OP already gave detailed reason to explain why it is.

[congrongfuguo]

 

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

So are Pipspook/BigSpook human? Are they creatures we’ve slaughtered in the constant?? Omg those poor poor Pengull & Beefalos..

 

Haha, so this is a philosophical interrogation about The Constant. Thinking like this is really uncomfortable

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

is Charlie even the bad guy here? Sure she’s made out to be that way.. but she’s also seen ending a Catcoons existence when it tries to eat Abigail’s flower.

Then there’s Wagstaff… he seems to be the “good guy” but then what does Lunar Rifts and siding with the moon even do? Oh yeah that’s right… it creates undead Zombiefied penguins, horror hounds, and even reanimated possessed corpses of the bosses we just killed..

I don't understand the difference between shadow and moon either. Shadow gives the impression of being eerie and terrifying, while moon gives the impression of being cold and powerful. However, they are equally twisted.

I don't understand what loyalty to either side means or why we don't steal the power of both at the same time.

[congrongfuguo]

4 hours ago, Koomin said:

Yea no problem. I linked to them in this post below earlier in this thread since the discussion was the same and I didn't want to type it all out again since I worked hard on the other posts already. Maybe you missed them, but they are not vague or needing a microscope or exclusionary. Feel free to look the posts over and let me know what you think:

 

I think this is a neat freak issue. First of all, everyone doesn't like automatic retrieval, just like using a console.

We accept this design because it has not yet reached the boundaries of being annoying, and it also has the effect of beautifying sisrurn. However, you rejected it at the moment when it showed small features - this is my understanding of the current situation

I'm not obsessed with this design. From a problem-solving perspective, it's not up to par

The consensus among us regarding the issues with the pipspooks branch is:

1.This is a completely repetitive and monotonous process

2. This process will not be associated with any other game objectives

3. There will be no changes in the later stages of the game

The solution of the author of this post is to add a gambling element to the interaction with pipspooks to solve the problem from the perspective of 1 (adding some changes to the process). As for the petal turning into mourning glory, it's just a small cake—— You can't wait ten days next to sisturn to make potions, but anyway it enriches the way of obtaining mourning glory. I think this direction is correct

In my response to you, I tried to design a solution that solves the problem from three directions at the same time. I think even if you don't agree with all the content, you can understand my way of thinking and further discuss it. However, when I returned here, I found that nothing had changed. "Creative" and "interesting" are still just two words. You would rather stay put and argue than push the topic forward, which is really frustrating

[Yaorin yon]

5 hours ago, Koomin said:

Yea no problem.  I linked to them in this post below earlier in this thread since the discussion was the same and I didn't want to type it all out again since I worked hard on the other posts already. Maybe you missed them, but they are not vague or needing a microscope or exclusionary.  Feel free to look the posts over and let me know what you think:

 

I have read through your viewpoint and can see that you have your own ideas about the game content, which is worth encouraging, but I do not believe that this can be related to my previous comments in response to you.

Your previous comment made me feel that you only wanted to condemn others' ideas, even resorting to piecing together many things that were not said by the same person to form the basis of your condemnation argument. This makes me very confused, and even makes me feel that it is a bit excessive. This has moved away from the discussion and communication of gameplay, and is more like an act of venting.

As for the part of your viewpoint.

Firstly, from the perspective of opposing significance. The suggestion from other players is not to replace existing options, but to add new ones. I actually don't understand your motivation to oppose a feature that doesn't change your own game content. Providing players with an additional option almost always makes the game more enjoyable.

Secondly, from the perspective of data situation. Turning petals into mourning glory normally takes 6 days, but if the jar has a preservation function, it will be longer and the yield is very low, with a 1:1 exchange. However, the other methods proposed by the author (obtaining nearly 50 small tasks), or the current method (obtaining 20 tasks at once), have very exaggerated output efficiency. This is not really a reason to 'replace normal tasks'.

Finally, from the perspective of actual game mechanics. It is logical and very positive to utilize a universal resource to its exclusive purpose, just like the Winona I have been experiencing recently. Her abilities are very rich, and a large part of them are linked to general materials. In normal games, resources that I may not specifically collect, or resources with fewer functions, can be converted into her own unique benefits. This process has given me continuous positive feedback to collect resources. If Wendy can turn petals into mourning glory, it would be a positive feedback loop for me, because in normal games, Wendy doesn't rely on collecting petals or even the Blessed Sisturn itself (at least you won't always fill it), but if they can get new content, such as transforming petals, it will undoubtedly encourage me to build the Blessed Sisturn and regularly fill it with petals.

In summary, this is my logical analysis. I can understand and encourage the expression of sincere thoughts, but I cannot understand the condemnation of creativity. A new content that does not erase or replace any past content, and even has positive feedback, persistent opposition, or condemnation of others' content, is an absolutely repulsive behavior.

[Koomin]

16 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

I have read through your viewpoint and can see that you have your own ideas about the game content, which is worth encouraging, but I do not believe that this can be related to my previous comments in response to you.

Your previous comment made me feel that you only wanted to condemn others' ideas, even resorting to piecing together many things that were not said by the same person to form the basis of your condemnation argument. This makes me very confused, and even makes me feel that it is a bit excessive. This has moved away from the discussion and communication of gameplay, and is more like an act of venting.

As for the part of your viewpoint.

Firstly, from the perspective of opposing significance. The suggestion from other players is not to replace existing options, but to add new ones. I actually don't understand your motivation to oppose a feature that doesn't change your own game content. Providing players with an additional option almost always makes the game more enjoyable.

Secondly, from the perspective of data situation. Turning petals into mourning glory normally takes 6 days, but if the jar has a preservation function, it will be longer and the yield is very low, with a 1:1 exchange. However, the other methods proposed by the author (obtaining nearly 50 small tasks), or the current method (obtaining 20 tasks at once), have very exaggerated output efficiency. This is not really a reason to 'replace normal tasks'.

Finally, from the perspective of actual game mechanics. It is logical and very positive to utilize a universal resource to its exclusive purpose, just like the Winona I have been experiencing recently. Her abilities are very rich, and a large part of them are linked to general materials. In normal games, resources that I may not specifically collect, or resources with fewer functions, can be converted into her own unique benefits. This process has given me continuous positive feedback to collect resources. If Wendy can turn petals into mourning glory, it would be a positive feedback loop for me, because in normal games, Wendy doesn't rely on collecting petals or even the Blessed Sisturn itself (at least you won't always fill it), but if they can get new content, such as transforming petals, it will undoubtedly encourage me to build the Blessed Sisturn and regularly fill it with petals.

In summary, this is my logical analysis. I can understand and encourage the expression of sincere thoughts, but I cannot understand the condemnation of creativity. A new content that does not erase or replace any past content, and even has positive feedback, persistent opposition, or condemnation of others' content, is an absolutely repulsive behavior.

Hey- sorry I'm going to stay away from a conversation that includes calling me "absolutely repulsive" since I don't think it will go anywhere useful and is very much against the forum guidelines.

 

54 minutes ago, congrongfuguo said:

I think this is a neat freak issue. First of all, everyone doesn't like automatic retrieval, just like using a console.

We accept this design because it has not yet reached the boundaries of being annoying, and it also has the effect of beautifying sisrurn. However, you rejected it at the moment when it showed small features - this is my understanding of the current situation

I'm not obsessed with this design. From a problem-solving perspective, it's not up to par

The consensus among us regarding the issues with the pipspooks branch is:

1.This is a completely repetitive and monotonous process

2. This process will not be associated with any other game objectives

3. There will be no changes in the later stages of the game

The solution of the author of this post is to add a gambling element to the interaction with pipspooks to solve the problem from the perspective of 1 (adding some changes to the process). As for the petal turning into mourning glory, it's just a small cake—— You can't wait ten days next to sisturn to make potions, but anyway it enriches the way of obtaining mourning glory. I think this direction is correct

In my response to you, I tried to design a solution that solves the problem from three directions at the same time. I think even if you don't agree with all the content, you can understand my way of thinking and further discuss it. However, when I returned here, I found that nothing had changed. "Creative" and "interesting" are still just two words. You would rather stay put and argue than push the topic forward, which is really frustrating

Hey I think I did miss replying to your comment if you were referring to this one below.  Sorry about that - there are just a lot of posts.  I actually think it is a fun idea and wouldn't have concerns with it, but think that it is probably a bit too complicated for Klei to add at this point in the release. 

Just bringing it up again: I'm absolutely in support of improving the pipspook quest to be more fun and engaging or other ideas, I just don't want them to be automatically produced.

[Debruh]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

then what even ARE Pipspook/Bigspook? Are they ghosts of other fallen survivors? Even though we have evidential proof that “dying” in the constant is seen as a funny meme of sorts- You live, you die, you live again!

So are Pipspook/BigSpook human? Are they creatures we’ve slaughtered in the constant?? Omg those poor poor Pengull  & Beefalos

Probably just their own creature.

They all act the same way, so they're probably not ghosts of different entities.

A pengull ghost and a beef ghost would probably act differently. But all ghosts act the same, and are hostile to the survivors, except Wendy, so they're probably not ghosts of the survivors either. Just their own thing.

[yuntunhemudu]

Community General Guidelines：Take the high road: Trolls are people who will post negative or rude comments to get a rise out of the community. Ignoring these trolls simply stops their efforts to get attention for themselves.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/guidelines/

[Echsrick]

56 minutes ago, yuntunhemudu said:

Community General Guidelines：Take the high road: Trolls are people who will post negative or rude comments to get a rise out of the community. Ignoring these trolls simply stops their efforts to get attention for themselves.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/guidelines/

i dont think anyone was just trolling in here, unless you think someones oppinion you dont aggree with is trolling

[Mike23Ua]

8 hours ago, Debruh said:

Probably just their own creature.

They all act the same way, so they're probably not ghosts of different entities.

A pengull ghost and a beef ghost would probably act differently. But all ghosts act the same, and are hostile to the survivors, except Wendy, so they're probably not ghosts of the survivors either. Just their own thing.

Yes, I assumed so too but then Maxwells quotes like “Hah I remember this one..” or “Sorry so Sorry” implies that he had a huge helping hand in the death or creation of whatever Pipspook/bigspook are meant to be.

So I ask again: in a game where our first actual face to face confrontation with Maxwell sees him turn to bone and dust right before our very eyes.. What are DSTs “Ghosts” even meant to be?

I always assumed Merm/Pigmen because those are at constant war with one another and savagely display the decapitated heads of the other faction proudly in their villages.

But then recent DST Lore gave us a Merm/Pigman love story..

So I ask again… what are ghosts in this game? What value of respect does a tombstone hold when it’s robbed of its valuables or jewels with a Shovel? 

They’re making a huge fuse over Wendy not fitting into a certain “role”, when by their logic: Klei should redesign Wendy so she flat out refuses to dig loot out of graves.

A feature that’s been in DS/DST since forever..

The simple answer is that the constant is- Pun fully intended here “Constant”

Life & Death… is Constant, there is no end to the never ending cycle.

And as such- Both Life and Death… in this place is treated as being sort of I guess like a Funny Meme.

Its like: watching Doctor Strange die over and over again in many different (sometimes comically hilarious) ways, Because he’s just going to respawn and live again in a few minutes anyway.

[Uedo]

43 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yes, I assumed so too but then Maxwells quotes like “Hah I remember this one..” or “Sorry so Sorry” implies that he had a huge helping hand in the death or creation of whatever Pipspook/bigspook are meant to be.

So I ask again: in a game where our first actual face to face confrontation with Maxwell sees him turn to bone and dust right before our very eyes.. What are DSTs “Ghosts” even meant to be?

I always assumed Merm/Pigmen because those are at constant war with one another and savagely display the decapitated heads of the other faction proudly in their villages.

But then recent DST Lore gave us a Merm/Pigman love story..

So I ask again… what are ghosts in this game? What value of respect does a tombstone hold when it’s robbed of its valuables or jewels with a Shovel? 

They’re making a huge fuse over Wendy not fitting into a certain “role”, when by their logic: Klei should redesign Wendy so she flat out refuses to dig loot out of graves.

A feature that’s been in DS/DST since forever..

The simple answer is that the constant is- Pun fully intended here “Constant”

Life & Death… is Constant, there is no end to the never ending cycle.

And as such- Both Life and Death… in this place is treated as being sort of I guess like a Funny Meme.

Its like: watching Doctor Strange die over and over again in many different (sometimes comically hilarious) ways, Because he’s just going to respawn and live again in a few minutes anyway.

I think, predominantly, that's it's because it's a video game Mike.

Edit: I felt mean. I assume Maxwell is being sardonic, not literal.

[Debruh]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yes, I assumed so too but then Maxwells quotes like “Hah I remember this one..” or “Sorry so Sorry” implies that he had a huge helping hand in the death or creation of whatever Pipspook/bigspook are meant to be.

So I ask again: in a game where our first actual face to face confrontation with Maxwell sees him turn to bone and dust right before our very eyes.. What are DSTs “Ghosts” even meant to be?

I always assumed Merm/Pigmen because those are at constant war with one another and savagely display the decapitated heads of the other faction proudly in their villages.

But then recent DST Lore gave us a Merm/Pigman love story..

So I ask again… what are ghosts in this game? What value of respect does a tombstone hold when it’s robbed of its valuables or jewels with a Shovel? 

They’re making a huge fuse over Wendy not fitting into a certain “role”, when by their logic: Klei should redesign Wendy so she flat out refuses to dig loot out of graves.

A feature that’s been in DS/DST since forever..

The simple answer is that the constant is- Pun fully intended here “Constant”

Life & Death… is Constant, there is no end to the never ending cycle.

And as such- Both Life and Death… in this place is treated as being sort of I guess like a Funny Meme.

Its like: watching Doctor Strange die over and over again in many different (sometimes comically hilarious) ways, Because he’s just going to respawn and live again in a few minutes anyway.

I'm assuming he's more apologizing for creating them as creatures that are in pain and anger/sorrow 24/7 even spiders can experience happiness but ghosts are seemingly always angry. Even when near Wendy. And pipspooks are always sad without her help.

[Steorra]

10 hours ago, Echsrick said:

i dont think anyone was just trolling in here, unless you think someones oppinion you dont aggree with is trolling

Maybe it's someone they agree with? (Shrug)

[Wendyskill]

在2025年1月18日上午10:33,Chewabacca说：

回应这篇文章的传说部分，主要跳过这棵树的游戏部分（因为主知道我已经完成了我的时间在温迪线程re：游戏玩法）：

首先，非常感谢你附上视频，并为我们这些不会说中文的人翻译和配音成英文，特别是这样长度的视频。我印象深刻的是，视频制作者对卡特家族的时间线，他们对她家乡的研究，以及他们对困扰温迪的幸存者内疚和抑郁的报道。我被他们的情况说服了，我们在温迪的短片中看到的房子不是她在科罗纳的房子，而是杰克带着他的女儿在某个地方希望帮助她康复。
然而，我在一些重要的方面不同意他们的观点。他们说，温迪继续想念阿比盖尔，即使阿比盖尔的鬼魂仍然在附近，支持鬼魂实际上不是阿比盖尔的灵魂，而是温迪意识的表现，旨在保持阿比盖尔的记忆。但在我看来，这似乎是对鬼魂如何工作的误解（至少在西方传统中，我对鬼魂和巫术在中国文化中的作用一无所知，可耻的是，互联网并没有被证明是太有帮助的）。在基督教中，死者的灵魂通常被认为处于和平状态，与天堂永远共融（至少，如果他们在生活中是好人，我想我们可以假设Klei并不打算让死去的孩子成为邪恶的人）。一个活生生的人类试图将他们从那种和平中撕裂，通过这种努力正在扭曲他们的灵魂。此外，基督教教导说，完美的复活只有通过上帝才能实现，这意味着任何较小的力量尝试同样的事情都是违反上帝的旨意，注定要失败。这对温迪来说意味着阿比盖尔的鬼魂可以是阿比盖尔的灵魂，即使温迪一点也不满意。她把她的妹妹带回来了，真的，但她甚至不能和她交谈，因为阿比盖尔除了攻击事物或长时间离开温迪的身边之外，无法与世界交流或互动。如果我有一个死去的妹妹，我把她作为一个鬼魂带回来，但她所能做的就是为保护我而战，我不会真的觉得我已经完全把我的妹妹带回来了，因为她不会像一个人一样行事。我想指出的是，我是犹太人，不是基督徒，所以上面的一些细节可能是错误的，但基督教是主导文化的一部分，以至于你不能不了解它，这就是为什么我觉得谈论它很舒服。

我也不同意视频制作者的建议，即温迪甚至在阿比盖尔去世之前就在学习草药学和巫术，因为这与温迪的返工公告相冲突(https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/116540-wendys-character-refresh-is-now-available/)，据说温迪在那里“发现”了如何帮助阿比盖尔，并被“引导”进入了外生草药学，并不是说她在阿比盖尔去世之前已经知道了一些。

从视频转到你自己的评论：我认为你包括的“通灵论”定义的一个重要部分是，涉及的精神是 不是 与世界互动。他们从来世提供他们的建议和祝福，但他们仍然在来世，没有处理这个世界。我认为你看到温迪扮演精神沟通者的一个例子是与pipspooks一起，她引导他们并帮助他们离开世界。但阿比盖尔却不是这样，她和她活着的姐姐一起对抗同样活着的敌人。再一次，在基督教的模式中，在来世就是在天堂里，在和平中，因此，出于任何原因从来世中移除一个灵魂，将他们束缚在这个世界上，这被视为强迫他们离开天堂。在这种世界观中，温迪召唤阿比盖尔的鬼魂实际上是“自私的”：她把阿比盖尔从她永恒的幸福安息中带走，因为温迪无法想象没有她的生活，并且对失去她感到深深的悲痛。这说明她是个坏人吗？当然不是。这是非常可以理解的一个孩子谁失去了她最亲近的人愿意做任何事情来让那个人回来。没有人在悲伤的时候想清楚。但这与经常看到的关于死灵术的故事是一致的，在这个故事中，有人试图恢复所爱的人的精神，只是为了他们的尝试出错，而死去的所爱的人回来并不完全正确。

回应你对论点1的反驳：我不认为人们的意图，当他们指出温迪一直谈论杀戮的时候，是说她是“残忍的”，就像彻头彻尾的邪恶。相反，我认为这些台词的重点是温迪痴迷于死亡，她的思想经常向它漂移。抑郁症的影响之一是，它使人们认为生活比它更有价值，我认为这在温迪的引言中表现得相当明显。

同意你的论点2。温迪认为生与死毫无意义，因为她很沮丧，不是因为常数，否则我们会看到她对其他角色的态度。

回应你对论点3的反驳：所以我玩过这个版本的Wendy（在DS中，阿比盖尔需要牺牲才能被唤醒）很多，从经验来看，我可以告诉你，你在做毫无意义的区分。十有八九当你想召唤阿比盖尔时你就是杀人的人。温迪并没有自己跳过，只是在看到两个生物即将互相残杀时召唤阿比盖尔。在这种情况下，她不是一个被动的观察者——她想要她的妹妹回来，她学会了魔法把她带回来，她为什么要坐下来观察“生死循环”，而不是采取行动把她带出来？

跳过你帖子的大部分游戏部分，来到你谈论哀悼荣耀线的部分，特别是阿比盖尔的永久缺席如何定义温迪的角色：我同意这种损失实际上定义了她的角色。然而，重要的是要注意，这被描述为“尝试”，这意味着温迪尝试但没有成功。

同意Perennial祭坛的报价，那句话对Wendy来说是错误的。我认为Klei的氛围是胜利的，超越了死亡，我认为这是试图展示技能树如何使角色总体上更强大的结果，但是，是的，如果报价更谦虚会更好。也许是她在救阿比盖尔之前不能让自己死的事？

关于她移动墓碑的技能，我认为技能的描述文本是相关的：“温迪可以重新安置坟墓，将孤独的灵魂聚集在一起。“从坟墓里挖出尸体并移动它们几乎是一个普遍的禁忌。我不明白为什么这个线程中的一些人声称这里没什么大不了的，它非常重要。然而，至少在美国，对于意外死亡或被谋杀并被埋葬在远离家人的地方的人来说，有一个例外，在这种情况下，移动他们的墓地更容易接受。我相信这就是温迪在传说中注定要做的事情。也许不会把人们送回他们的家人身边，因为他们都在常数中，但她可以确保他们在死亡时有伴。
技能描述文字也与Bigspook召唤相关：“温迪可以用鲜花装饰坟墓，以取悦他们的灵魂。“对我来说，这听起来不像她强迫他们成为她的仆人，但他们很高兴她足够关心用鲜花装饰他们的坟墓，并出于感激而出来支持她。

我不认为这是个公平的比较，对他们来说。在没有太多卷入杂草的情况下，大卫之星经常被挪用和扭曲为恶魔、幽灵魔法或一般前卫的通用符号，结果人们不认为它是什么：朱的象征达主义。随机使用类似的设计Wigfrid的头盔有助于远离符号的含义的问题，所以Klei做了正确的事情并删除了它。这与期望所有角色都遵循犹太文化是不同的，IMO。这就像冒犯伍迪谈论他想吃一头猪，或者威尔逊最喜欢的食物是培根和鸡蛋，只是因为猪肉在犹太教中是禁止的。

非常谢谢你认真得回复给我这些，非常感谢。我在遥远地球的另一端终于感受到了不同民族和文化的善意，而不是一直在论坛中感受到的漠视与偏见。真的非常你真诚得给我讲解因为文化差异带来的理解偏差。但是又过去了这么久，最近两次近乎全是nerf的更新已经让我丧失了对这个游戏的热情，设计师对玩家用心和诚恳建议的漠视让我觉得非常费解。我或许能理解Wendy技能树设计师这种被限制于单机版游戏的设计思路，但是明明Willow，薇诺娜，沃克托斯，伍迪他们的技能树能设计得那么强力和出彩，而温蒂还要在为设计师「too strong」的错误看法来付出代价。现在整个技能树对新玩法的质变是摇摇欲坠的，温蒂几乎与没有技能树时一样。我不清楚我们的设计师到底出了什么问题要在其他角色这么强力技能树之后还给温蒂设计这样保守甚至无用的一大堆技能。但我已经累了，我是游戏十年以上的玩家，我曾经非常热爱这个游戏，不然也不会写出这样篇幅的帖子。

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I'm really grateful. At the other end of the earth, I finally felt the kindness of different nations and cultures, rather than the indifference and prejudice I've always felt on the forums. I'm really grateful for your sincere explanation of the understanding differences caused by cultural differences. But so much time has passed. The last two updates that were almost all nerfs have made me lose my enthusiasm for this game. The designers' indifference to players' sincere suggestions makes me very puzzled. I can perhaps understand the design thinking of the Wendy skill tree designer, who is limited by the single-player version of the game. But clearly, the skill trees of Willow, Winona, Wortox, and Woody can be designed so powerfully and outstandingly, while Wendy still has to pay the price for the designer's wrong view of "too strong". Now the entire skill tree's qualitative change for new gameplay is on the verge of collapse, and Wendy is almost as if she had no skill tree at all. I don't know what's wrong with our designers to design such a conservative and even useless bunch of skills for Wendy after the other characters' powerful skill trees. But I'm tired. I'm a player of over ten years. I used to love this game very much, otherwise I wouldn't have written such a long post.

中国有句古话叫「爱之深责之切」，意思是对一个事物有足够深的爱，就会有对这个事物的不好变化有更严重的责备。当然，漠视了我们几个月以来发声的设计师一定一直觉得我们是在找茬吧？不然为什么要在我们重要的新年前放上只有nerf的更新内容？我的中国新年并不快乐。而这几个月设计师对温蒂技能树的反复折磨已经让我不再信任这个游戏，我觉得设计师或许说得很对，「为什么不关掉Great Depths Worm呢？」，是的，我选择关掉我的游戏。再次谢谢您认真的回复，您是这个充满傲慢和偏见论坛里很真诚的人。Klei，你已经在自取灭亡了。

There is an old saying in China that goes, "The deeper the love, the harsher the criticism." It means that if you have a deep love for something, you will be more critical of its negative changes. Of course, the designers who have ignored our voices for months must have always thought we were just looking for trouble. Otherwise, why would they release only nerf updates during our important New Year? My Chinese New Year was not happy. And the designers' repeated torture of Wendy's skill tree over these months has made me lose trust in this game. I think the designers might be right when they say, "Why not just turn off Great Depths Worm?" Yes, I choose to turn off my game. Thank you again for your serious reply. You are a very sincere person in this forum full of arrogance and prejudice. Klei, you are already on the road to self-destruction.