When We Call for the Removal of Necromancy Elements from Wendy's Skill Tree, What Are We Advocating For? An Attempt to Reconstruct Wendy's Skill Tree Through the Lens of Mysticism and Spirit Communication: Thoughts and Suggestions

[Steorra]

19 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

What incident was this? I can't agree with this point unless I get context about it. 

And sure, they could make moving graves available to everyone, but its not for the same reason Warly's crock pot recipes aren't available to everyone.

I guess it should be the skin of Wigfird's helm, which with the Star of David

[WenericMember]

31 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I guess it should be the skin of Wigfird's helm, which with the Star of David

That makes sense. Looking at it more that scenario looked like a bit of a mess. Glad I wasn't paying attention then.

I don't know the OP meant about after sales service, but they did offer refunds. They are right they have the right to make a request, but others also have the right to posit opposing views.

I still don't think changes are needed - handling the dead is a different matter to something incidentally resembling a religous symbol.  One is an asset change to something less controversial, while this would be changing from one persons idea of how the topic should be handled to anothers. But JoeW does have a point that it's not that deep, so ultimately its whatever 

[Cassielu]

16 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Thank you for saying this out loud. Brave enough to say what we're all thinking.

15 hours ago, Debruh said:

That's the thing, at this point we're all going in circles 

15 hours ago, WenericMember said:

the end is never the end is never the end is never

Tell me in which kine of culture "build a place full of the dead and use their wrathful ghost to kill living things that enter there" is a mourning instead of dark lord / horror story things.

We've been going in circles here because some strange xenophobic mentality has made people stupid, blaming it on some kind of irrational disrespect from aliens rather than thinking about they might raise a objective problem.

[Debruh]

16 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Tell me in which kine of culture or fiction, build a place full of the death and use their grievances ghost to kill living things that enter it is a mourning instead of dark lord things

This isn't even the use of the grave skills. They're about decorating graves for 1) evil flowers 2)to make a sanctuary where grateful ghosts to protect you.

If you're mad about them being used for farms and boss killings, then go complain about the strength of bigspooks not moving graves.

The bigspooks killing living things isn't even a problem with moving graves but with their behavior

16 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

We've been going in circles here because some strange xenophobic mentality has made you gusy stupid, blaming it on some kind of irrational disrespect from aliens rather than thinking about the fact that they might raise an objective problem that does exist.

Tell me in which kine of culture or fiction, build a place full of the death and use their grievances ghost to kill living things that enter it is a mourning instead of dark lord things

16 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

 

What objective problem about moving graves has been raised? 

That it's disrespectful? It's also disrespectful in my culture. And so is summoning Abby, doesn't mean that either should be removed.

It's probably disrespectful to a lot of people's cultures here. Nobody's complaining.

The only reason @WenericMember mentioned Chinese culture specifically, is because most of the people who made posts about grave relocation being disrespectful were Chinese. And Weneric wasn't even rude.

'Xenophobic' is just another attack on character that has been used in this beta. Alongside 'schadenfreude' or whatever that word is and a lot of others.

[Yaorin yon]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

That makes sense. Looking at it more that scenario looked like a bit of a mess. Glad I wasn't paying attention then.

I don't know the OP meant about after sales service, but they did offer refunds. They are right they have the right to make a request, but others also have the right to posit opposing views.

I still don't think changes are needed - handling the dead is a different matter to something incidentally resembling a religous symbol.  One is an asset change to something less controversial, while this would be changing from one persons idea of how the topic should be handled to anothers. But JoeW does have a point that it's not that deep, so ultimately its whatever 

It's okay, this secondary reason is just a satire on the helmet incident at that time and some people today who only hold opposing views on Chinese culture. After all, when faced with the cultural issue of helmets at that time, we did not see today's people seriously opposing them with the same reasons.

As for the primary reason mentioned earlier [allowing everyone to move the tombstone, Wendy can have additional tombstone abilities to make the entire skill tree more compact and logical], I think the more reasonable solution is,.

By the way, KLei did not make any corrections to the helmet image that was modified without the permission of other players. Instead, they provided a refund channel under opposition pressure, and many of the annoying comments made by KLei officials have not been well explained to this day. This is also a major reason why this matter can be remembered.

[Cassielu]

30 minutes ago, Debruh said:

This isn't even the use of the grave skills. They're about decorating graves for 1) evil flowers 2)to make a sanctuary where grateful ghosts to protect you.

If you're mad about them being used for farms and boss killings, then go complain about the strength of bigspooks not moving graves.

The bigspooks killing living things isn't even a problem with moving graves but with their behavior

You talk about these skills as if they are not interrelated skills that from same character and same skill branch. Obviously the main purpose of moving graves is to get Bigspok where you want them to be to killing things.

This branch even has another skill that somehow encourages you to create more death.

[Debruh]

2 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

You talk about these skills as if they are not interrelated skills that from same character and same skill branch.

Also you forget that they are the same skill now.

??? I know that they are. Bigspooks and moving graves are two aspects of the same skill. Murdering living things is the Bigspook aspect and is due to their behavior and AI. Not a problem with moving graves

[RussoDaFederal]

2 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Tell me in which kine of culture "build a place full of the dead and use their wrathful ghost to kill living things that enter there" is a mourning instead of dark lord / horror story things.

In my culture, I just made it up. Jokes aside, a lot of stuff in DST could be considered disrespectful. It's not like we're gonna kill sentient creatures and defile graves in real life, but those are common practices inside the game. For any character. They can't move graves like Wendy can, but they can defile graves and hammer skeletons. Have you stopped to think of the connotation of "meat effigy"? I mean, there's so much dark magic in DST, moving a grave isn't more disrespectful than other aspects of the game. There's stuff in the game that is considered disrespectful in most cultures, Americans don't just walk around defiling graves on every opportunity. The game was originally developed by Canadian devs and the characters are mostly American. DST kinda mocks those concepts and it's not disrespectful because of its context. Unless it's a pretty big issue (for example Zelda Ocarina of Time originally using the Islamic moon and star as the symbol of the Gerudo), then the devs shouldn't cater to vastly different cultures. It'd be the same as someone complaining Wukong isn't Christian enough. It's a completely different culture, it's not meant to follow the same dogmas.

[Cassielu]

59 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

In my culture, I just made it up. Jokes aside, a lot of stuff in DST could be considered disrespectful. It's not like we're gonna kill sentient creatures and defile graves in real life, but those are common practices inside the game. For any character. They can't move graves like Wendy can, but they can defile graves and hammer skeletons. Have you stopped to think of the connotation of "meat effigy"? I mean, there's so much dark magic in DST, moving a grave isn't more disrespectful than other aspects of the game. There's stuff in the game that is considered disrespectful in most cultures, Americans don't just walk around defiling graves on every opportunity. The game was originally developed by Canadian devs and the characters are mostly American. DST kinda mocks those concepts and it's not disrespectful because of its context. Unless it's a pretty big issue (for example Zelda Ocarina of Time originally using the Islamic moon and star as the symbol of the Gerudo), then the devs shouldn't cater to vastly different cultures. It'd be the same as someone complaining Wukong isn't Christian enough. It's a completely different culture, it's not meant to follow the same dogmas.

I don't think these objections are meant to ask respect any culture, it's simple than that - as @Wendyskill calls it "out-of-character", objections just because it's perceived as not fitting Wendy's character.

(About that kind of aggressive rhetorical question... I mean this skill isn't "evil in one culture, but mourning in another", so its not a culture issue)

[DaDa_waw]

49 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

In my culture, I just made it up. Jokes aside, a lot of stuff in DST could be considered disrespectful. It's not like we're gonna kill sentient creatures and defile graves in real life, but those are common practices inside the game. For any character. They can't move graves like Wendy can, but they can defile graves and hammer skeletons. Have you stopped to think of the connotation of "meat effigy"? I mean, there's so much dark magic in DST, moving a grave isn't more disrespectful than other aspects of the game. There's stuff in the game that is considered disrespectful in most cultures, Americans don't just walk around defiling graves on every opportunity. The game was originally developed by Canadian devs and the characters are mostly American. DST kinda mocks those concepts and it's not disrespectful because of its context. Unless it's a pretty big issue (for example Zelda Ocarina of Time originally using the Islamic moon and star as the symbol of the Gerudo), then the devs shouldn't cater to vastly different cultures. It'd be the same as someone complaining Wukong isn't Christian enough. It's a completely different culture, it's not meant to follow the same dogmas.

From both character design and logical design, it should be a mourning trait content, but the content does not conform to this series of settings. The author of the post spent a huge amount of space describing this issue. If you want to post something unbelievable without reading this post carefully, I hope you take responsibility for your own words.

[RussoDaFederal]

23 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

I don't think these objections are meant to ask respect any culture, it's simple than that - as @Wendyskill calls it "out-of-character"

Under what parameters? You're saying you know more about Wendy than the devs?

12 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

If you want to post something unbelievable without reading this post carefully, I hope you take responsibility for your own words.

Oh I do take responsibility for my words. I said what I said. Give me a microphone and I'll say it louder.

28 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

About that kind of aggressive rhetorical question...

Tell me, where have I been agressive? Am I offending you in some way? Did I make a personal attack? Did I call anyone names? You'll have to do better than just play the victim card if you want to have a meaningful discussion

[Lee lol]

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

You're saying you know more about Wendy than the devs?

But the grave branch is being modified, isn’t it? This shows that developers also think that the previous branch is not in line with Wendy's character.

[RussoDaFederal]

Just now, Lee lol said:

But the grave branch has been modified, hasn't it? This shows that developers also think that the previous branch is not in line with Wendy's character.

This means the devs take their playerbase opinion into account when working on new updates. And just that. Anything besides that is an extrapolation.

[Cassielu]

44 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Tell me, where have I been agressive? Am I offending you in some way? Did I make a personal attack? Did I call anyone names? You'll have to do better than just play the victim card if you want to have a meaningful discussion

Well. Sorry for ...uh... you didn't feel agressive from my rhetorical question.

4 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Tell me in which kine of culture "build a place full of the dead and use their wrathful ghost to kill living things that enter there" is a mourning instead of dark lord / horror story things.

[Yaorin yon]

22 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

This means the devs take their playerbase opinion into account when working on new updates. And just that. Anything besides that is an extrapolation.

You mean, the author of the post used ample evidence to construct a persuasive character structure and referenced a huge amount of character logic to refute the production team's mistakes. Even the production team acknowledged the need for modifications. In the end, it cannot be proven that the production team made a mistake? Admitting mistakes is difficult for you to talk about, is this what you strive for? The production team started to make urgent modifications in order to correct the errors, and in your mouth, it turned into the production team only compromising the player's proposal? Your sophistry is disgusting.

[RussoDaFederal]

2 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

You mean, the author of the post used ample evidence to construct a persuasive character structure and referenced a huge amount of character logic to refute the production team's mistakes. Even the production team acknowledged the need for modifications. In the end, it cannot be proven that the production team made a mistake? Admitting mistakes is difficult for you to talk about, is this what you strive for? The production team started to make urgent modifications in order to correct the errors, and in your mouth, it turned into the production team only compromising the player's proposal? Your sophistry is disgusting.

Ample evidence? Admitting the production team's mistakes? You're detached from reality. If you wanna pretend you're on a higher ground because someone you agree with wrote a wall of text, feel free. I'm not gonna bother anymore, you clearly don't know how to engage in a serious discussion. Have a great day.

[Yaorin yon]

8 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Ample evidence? Admitting the production team's mistakes? You're detached from reality. If you wanna pretend you're on a higher ground because someone you agree with wrote a wall of text, feel free. I'm not gonna bother anymore, you clearly don't know how to engage in a serious discussion. Have a great day. wall of text, feel free. I'm not gonna bother anymore, you clearly don't know how to engage in a serious discussion. Have a great day.

If your so-called serious discussion means running away if you can't do it? I have to say that you have great wisdom. And your so-called wall of text can only prove that you cannot even show the most basic respect. You reveal from various angles that you dare not respond to truly serious evidence, and only use "a wall of text" to try to "truly place yourself on the moral high ground". Your talent is amazing. I hope you're just apologizing for your clumsy speech and making yourself appear less troublesome, otherwise this will be the most dramatic microphone performance of 2025. Finally, I wish you a happy life as well, KLei Weiye's most loyal friend who is priceless.

[WenericMember]

4 hours ago, Lee lol said:

But the grave branch is being modified, isn’t it? This shows that developers also think that the previous branch is not in line with Wendy's character.

I don't particularly think it is? At least, nothing guaranteed.

The only example given for the "aesthetic changes" was the perennial altar.

Shadow Abigail, Lunar Abigail, Wraith's Wreath,  and Team Spriit are all also potential candidates for these "aesthetic changes."

Still possible, but idk.

Also More generally:

I must specify again, that the only reason I brought up chinese culture for the grave skills was because that was the main argument for changes in the last conversation I had on the topic. My apologies if that isn't relevant here and I was jumping to conclusions.

Also, I do not like the way the conversation is heading, so I'm bowing out.

[Chewabacca]

On 1/14/2025 at 4:38 PM, Wendyskill said:

First of all, a Happy New Year to everyone who has clicked on this post!

Responding to the lore parts of this post and mostly skipping over the gameplay part of this tree (because the Lord knows I have done my time in the Wendy threads re:gameplay):

First off, thank you very much for attaching the video and going through the trouble of translating & dubbing it into English for those of us who don't speak Chinese, especially with a video of this length. I am impressed by how thorough the video maker is with the Carter family's timeline, with their research into her hometown, and with their coverage of the survivor's guilt and depression that plagues Wendy. I'm persuaded by their case that the house we see in Wendy's short isn't her house in Corona, but somewhere that Jack took his daughter in the hopes of helping her recover.
However, I do disagree with them on some important parts. They state that Wendy continuing to miss Abigail even though Abigail's ghost is still around supports the idea that the ghost isn't actually Abigail's soul, but a manifestation of Wendy's consciousness meant to keep Abigail's memory alive. But in my opinion, this seems to be a misunderstanding of how ghosts work (at least in the Western tradition, I am shamefully ignorant of how ghosts and necromancy work in Chinese culture and the internet is not proving to be too helpful). In Christianity, the spirits of the dead are generally said to be at peace, subsumed into communion with heaven for eternity (at least, if they were good people in life, I think we can assume that Klei did not intend for the dead child to be evil). A living human who tries to rip them out of that peace is twisting their soul through that effort. Additionally, Christianity teaches that perfect resurrection is something only possible through God, meaning that any lesser power who tries the same is violating God's will and doomed to failure. What this means for Wendy is that Abigail's ghost can be Abigail's soul even while not satisfying Wendy at all. She got her sister back, true, but in a form where she can't even have conversations with her because Abigail can't communicate or interact with the world apart from attacking things or leave Wendy's side for long. If I had a sister who died, and I brought her back as a ghost, but all she could do was fight to defend me, I wouldn't really feel like I'd fully gotten my sister back, because she wouldn't be acting as a person. I want to note that I am Jewish, not Christian, and so some of the above details may be wrong, but Christianity is part of the dominant culture here to such an extent that you can't help but learn about it, which is why I feel comfortable talking about it.

I also disagree with the video maker's suggestion that Wendy was learning about herbology and witchcraft even before Abigail's death, because that clashes with the Wendy rework announcement (https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/116540-wendys-character-refresh-is-now-available/), where Wendy is said to have "discovered" how to help Abigail and has been "led" to ectoherbology, not that she already knew some from before Abigail's death.

Moving on from the video to your own remarks: I think an important part of the "spiritism" definition you include is that the spirits involved are not interacting with the world at all. They are offering their advice and well-wishes from the beyond, but they are still in the afterlife, not dealing with this world. I think one instance where you do see Wendy take up the role of spiritual communicator is with the pipspooks, where she guides them and helps them move on from the world. This is not true of Abigail, who fights alongside her living sister against also-living enemies. Again, in the Christian model, to be in the afterlife is to be in heaven, at peace, and so removing a spirit from the afterlife to tether them into this world for any reason is seen as forcing them out of paradise. In this worldview, Wendy summoning Abigail's ghost is in fact "selfish": she took Abigail out of her eternal blissful rest because Wendy couldn't imagine life without her and was in deep grief over losing her. Does this make her a bad person? Of course not. It's very understandable for a child who's lost the person closest to her to be willing to do just about anything to get that person back. Nobody thinks clearly when they're grieving. But it is in line with the often-seen story about necromancy in which someone tries to revive the spirit of a loved one, only for their attempt to go wrong and for the dead loved one to come back not quite right.

Response to your rebuttal of Argument 1: I don't think that people's intention when they point out all the times that Wendy talks about killing things is to say that she's "cruel" as in outright evil. Rather, I think that the point of those lines is that Wendy is obsessed with death and her mind often drifts towards it. One of the effects of depression is that it makes people see life as a less valuable thing than it is, and I think that comes across rather clearly in Wendy's quotes.

Agreed with you on Argument 2. Wendy sees life and death as meaningless because she's depressed, not because of the Constant, otherwise we'd see her attitude with the other characters.

Response to your rebuttal of Argument 3: so I have played this version of Wendy (the one in DS where Abigail needs a sacrifice to be awakened) quite a lot, and from experience I can tell you that you're making a meaningless distinction. Nine times out of ten, when you want to summon Abigail in DS, you're the one doing the killing. Wendy is not skipping about on her own, only summoning Abigail when she sees two creatures about to murder each other. She is not a passive observer in this situation--she wants her sister back, she learned magic to bring her back, why would she sit back and observe "the cycle of life and death" instead of acting to bring her out?

Skipping over most of the gameplay segment of your post and coming to the part where you talk about the mourning glory line, specifically how Abigail's permanent absence defines Wendy's character: I agree that that loss does in fact define her character. However, it's important to note that this was described as an "attempt", meaning that Wendy tried but was not successful.

Agreed on the Perennial Altar quote, that line does wrong for Wendy. I think the vibe Klei is going for is triumphant, ascended beyond mortality, which I think is a result of trying to show off how much stronger skill trees make characters in general, but yeah, it'd be better if the quote was humbler. Maybe something about how she can't let herself die until she saves Abigail?

On the skill where she moves gravestones around, I think the description text of the skill is relevant: "Wendy can relocate graves to bring lonely spirits together." Digging up corpses out of their graves and moving them around is pretty much a universal taboo. I don't get why some people in this thread are claiming that it's no big deal over here, it very much is. At least in America, however, there's an exception for people who died unexpectedly or were murdered and got buried far from their families, in which case moving their burial site is much more acceptable. I believe that this is the sort of thing that Wendy is meant to be doing in the lore. Maybe not returning people to their families, since they're all in the Constant, but she can make sure that they have company in death.
The skill description text is also relevant to Bigspook summoning: "Wendy can adorn graves with flowers to delight their resident spirits." To me, that doesn't sound like she's forcing them to be her servants, but like they're happy that she cared enough to decorate their graves with flowers and are coming out to support her out of gratitude.

14 hours ago, Steorra said:

I guess it should be the skin of Wigfird's helm, which with the Star of David

I don't think that's a fair comparison to make on their part, then. Without getting into the weeds too much, the Star of David is frequently appropriated and twisted as a generic symbol of demons, spooky magic, or general edginess, with the result that people don't think of it as what it is: the symbol of Judaism. Randomly using a similar design for Wigfrid's helmet contributed to the problem of distancing the symbol from its meaning, so Klei did the right thing and removed it. It's not the same thing as expecting all the characters to follow Jewish culture, IMO. That would be like taking offense to Woodie talking about how he wants to eat a pig, or Wilson's favorite meal being bacon and eggs, just because pork is forbidden in Judaism.

[Yifei_]

57 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Responding to the lore parts of this post and mostly skipping over the gameplay part of this tree (because the Lord knows I have done my time in the Wendy threads re:gameplay):

First off, thank you very much for attaching the video and going through the trouble of translating & dubbing it into English for those of us who don't speak Chinese, especially with a video of this length. I am impressed by how thorough the video maker is with the Carter family's timeline, with their research into her hometown, and with their coverage of the survivor's guilt and depression that plagues Wendy. I'm persuaded by their case that the house we see in Wendy's short isn't her house in Corona, but somewhere that Jack took his daughter in the hopes of helping her recover.
However, I do disagree with them on some important parts. They state that Wendy continuing to miss Abigail even though Abigail's ghost is still around supports the idea that the ghost isn't actually Abigail's soul, but a manifestation of Wendy's consciousness meant to keep Abigail's memory alive. But in my opinion, this seems to be a misunderstanding of how ghosts work (at least in the Western tradition, I am shamefully ignorant of how ghosts and necromancy work in Chinese culture and the internet is not proving to be too helpful). In Christianity, the spirits of the dead are generally said to be at peace, subsumed into communion with heaven for eternity (at least, if they were good people in life, I think we can assume that Klei did not intend for the dead child to be evil). A living human who tries to rip them out of that peace is twisting their soul through that effort. Additionally, Christianity teaches that perfect resurrection is something only possible through God, meaning that any lesser power who tries the same is violating God's will and doomed to failure. What this means for Wendy is that Abigail's ghost can be Abigail's soul even while not satisfying Wendy at all. She got her sister back, true, but in a form where she can't even have conversations with her because Abigail can't communicate or interact with the world apart from attacking things or leave Wendy's side for long. If I had a sister who died, and I brought her back as a ghost, but all she could do was fight to defend me, I wouldn't really feel like I'd fully gotten my sister back, because she wouldn't be acting as a person. I want to note that I am Jewish, not Christian, and so some of the above details may be wrong, but Christianity is part of the dominant culture here to such an extent that you can't help but learn about it, which is why I feel comfortable talking about it.

I also disagree with the video maker's suggestion that Wendy was learning about herbology and witchcraft even before Abigail's death, because that clashes with the Wendy rework announcement (https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/116540-wendys-character-refresh-is-now-available/), where Wendy is said to have "discovered" how to help Abigail and has been "led" to ectoherbology, not that she already knew some from before Abigail's death.

Moving on from the video to your own remarks: I think an important part of the "spiritism" definition you include is that the spirits involved are not interacting with the world at all. They are offering their advice and well-wishes from the beyond, but they are still in the afterlife, not dealing with this world. I think one instance where you do see Wendy take up the role of spiritual communicator is with the pipspooks, where she guides them and helps them move on from the world. This is not true of Abigail, who fights alongside her living sister against also-living enemies. Again, in the Christian model, to be in the afterlife is to be in heaven, at peace, and so removing a spirit from the afterlife to tether them into this world for any reason is seen as forcing them out of paradise. In this worldview, Wendy summoning Abigail's ghost is in fact "selfish": she took Abigail out of her eternal blissful rest because Wendy couldn't imagine life without her and was in deep grief over losing her. Does this make her a bad person? Of course not. It's very understandable for a child who's lost the person closest to her to be willing to do just about anything to get that person back. Nobody thinks clearly when they're grieving. But it is in line with the often-seen story about necromancy in which someone tries to revive the spirit of a loved one, only for their attempt to go wrong and for the dead loved one to come back not quite right.

Response to your rebuttal of Argument 1: I don't think that people's intention when they point out all the times that Wendy talks about killing things is to say that she's "cruel" as in outright evil. Rather, I think that the point of those lines is that Wendy is obsessed with death and her mind often drifts towards it. One of the effects of depression is that it makes people see life as a less valuable thing than it is, and I think that comes across rather clearly in Wendy's quotes.

Agreed with you on Argument 2. Wendy sees life and death as meaningless because she's depressed, not because of the Constant, otherwise we'd see her attitude with the other characters.

Response to your rebuttal of Argument 3: so I have played this version of Wendy (the one in DS where Abigail needs a sacrifice to be awakened) quite a lot, and from experience I can tell you that you're making a meaningless distinction. Nine times out of ten, when you want to summon Abigail in DS, you're the one doing the killing. Wendy is not skipping about on her own, only summoning Abigail when she sees two creatures about to murder each other. She is not a passive observer in this situation--she wants her sister back, she learned magic to bring her back, why would she sit back and observe "the cycle of life and death" instead of acting to bring her out?

Skipping over most of the gameplay segment of your post and coming to the part where you talk about the mourning glory line, specifically how Abigail's permanent absence defines Wendy's character: I agree that that loss does in fact define her character. However, it's important to note that this was described as an "attempt", meaning that Wendy tried but was not successful.

Agreed on the Perennial Altar quote, that line does wrong for Wendy. I think the vibe Klei is going for is triumphant, ascended beyond mortality, which I think is a result of trying to show off how much stronger skill trees make characters in general, but yeah, it'd be better if the quote was humbler. Maybe something about how she can't let herself die until she saves Abigail?

On the skill where she moves gravestones around, I think the description text of the skill is relevant: "Wendy can relocate graves to bring lonely spirits together." Digging up corpses out of their graves and moving them around is pretty much a universal taboo. I don't get why some people in this thread are claiming that it's no big deal over here, it very much is. At least in America, however, there's an exception for people who died unexpectedly or were murdered and got buried far from their families, in which case moving their burial site is much more acceptable. I believe that this is the sort of thing that Wendy is meant to be doing in the lore. Maybe not returning people to their families, since they're all in the Constant, but she can make sure that they have company in death.
The skill description text is also relevant to Bigspook summoning: "Wendy can adorn graves with flowers to delight their resident spirits." To me, that doesn't sound like she's forcing them to be her servants, but like they're happy that she cared enough to decorate their graves with flowers and are coming out to support her out of gratitude.

Your reply is very thoughtful. I have translated your reply into Chinese for you and have tried my best to proofread some of the proper nouns in DST.
 

Spoiler

回应这篇帖子中的背景故事部分，基本跳过技能树中关于游戏玩法的部分（因为上帝知道我已经在关于游戏玩法的温蒂帖子里耗费了很多时间）

 

首先，非常感谢您附上视频并费心将其翻译和配音成英语，特别是对于我们这些不懂中文的人来说，尤其是这样一段时长的视频。我对视频制作人对卡特家族时间线的详细整理、对她故乡的研究以及对温蒂所经历的幸存者负罪感和抑郁症的深刻探讨印象深刻。我被他们的论点说服了，认为我们在温蒂短片中看到的房子不是她在科罗纳的家，而是杰克带着女儿去的某个地方，希望能够帮助她康复。

 

然而，我在一些重要的部分上与他们有不同的看法。他们认为，温蒂即使在阿比盖尔的幽灵仍在身边的情况下依然思念阿比盖尔，支持了幽灵实际上并不是阿比盖尔的灵魂，而是温蒂意识的表现，目的是为了让阿比盖尔的记忆得以延续。但在我看来，这似乎是对幽灵运作方式的误解（至少在西方传统中如此，我对中国文化中的幽灵和死灵法术知之甚少，且网络信息也未能提供太多帮助）。在基督教中，死者的灵魂通常被认为已得以安息，融入天堂的永恒共融（至少，如果他们生前是好人，我想我们可以假设Klei并不打算让死去的孩子变成邪恶的存在）。一个活人试图把死者从这种安宁中拽出来，就是在扭曲他们的灵魂。此外，基督教教义认为，完美的复活只有通过上帝才能实现，这意味着任何试图以更低等的力量复活死者的行为，都是违背上帝意愿的，注定会失败。这对温蒂的意义在于，阿比盖尔的幽灵即便没有完全满足温蒂的需求，仍然可以是阿比盖尔的灵魂。她确实把姐姐带了回来，但以一种她无法与之对话的形式，因为阿比盖尔除了攻击东西外，无法与世界互动，也无法长时间离开温蒂的身边。如果我有一个死去的姐姐，我将她带回作为幽灵，但她只能为了保护我而战斗，我就不会感觉自己完全找回了姐姐，因为她无法作为一个人来行动。我想指出的是，我是犹太人，而不是基督徒，因此上面的一些细节可能有误，但基督教在这里是主流文化的一部分，以至于你不可能不接触到它，这也是为什么我敢谈论它的原因。

 

我也不同意视频制作者提出的温蒂在阿比盖尔死之前就已经在学习草药学和巫术的观点，因为这与温蒂角色重做的公告相冲突https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/116540-wendys-character-refresh-is-now-available/，公告中提到温蒂是“发现”了如何帮助阿比盖尔，并且是被“引导”进入了灵体草药学，而不是她在阿比盖尔死之前就已经知道一些相关的知识。

 

从视频谈到你的评论：我认为你提到的“通灵术”定义中的一个重要部分是，涉及的灵魂完全不与这个世界互动。它们从彼岸提供建议和祝福，但仍然处于来世，而不是与这个世界打交道。我认为你提到的一个例子，温蒂作为灵性沟通者的角色，就是与小惊吓们的互动，她引导它们，帮助它们从这个世界超脱。这与阿比盖尔不同，阿比盖尔与她活着的妹妹并肩作战，面对的也是活着的敌人。再次强调，在基督教的框架下，进入来世就是进入天堂，安息的状态，因此出于任何原因将一个灵魂从来世拉回这个世界，都会被视为将其从天堂驱逐出去。在这种世界观中，温蒂召唤阿比盖尔的幽灵实际上是“自私的”：她将阿比盖尔从她永恒的安息中带走，因为温蒂无法想象没有她的生活，并且因失去她而深感悲痛。这样做让她成为坏人吗？当然不是。对于一个失去最亲密人的孩子来说，愿意做任何事把那个人带回是完全可以理解的。失去亲人的人不会清晰思考。但这确实符合我们常见的死灵法术故事——某人试图复生一个亲人的灵魂，结果尝试失败，死去的亲人回来时已不再完整。

 

回应你对论点1的反驳：我认为人们在指出温蒂多次谈论杀生的事情时，并不是要说她“残忍”，即完全邪恶。相反，我认为这些话的重点在于温蒂对死亡的痴迷，她的思维经常飘向死亡。抑郁症的一个表现就是让人觉得生命的价值低于实际，它让人看待生活的方式变得消极，我认为这在温蒂的台词中表现得相当明显。

 

我同意你在论点2上的看法。温蒂之所以认为生死无意义，是因为她抑郁，而不是因为永恒领域，否则我们会看到她对其他角色的态度也有所不同。

 

回应你对论点3的反驳：我玩过这个版本的温蒂（即DS中的版本，阿比盖尔需要献祭才能被唤醒），根据经验，我可以告诉你，你正在做一个毫无意义的区分。在DS中，十有八九，当你想召唤阿比盖尔时，你就是那个进行杀戮的人。温蒂并不是自己逃避杀戮的行为，并只有在看到两只生物即将互相杀死时才召唤阿比盖尔。在这种情况下，她并不是一个被动的观察者——她想要把姐姐带回来，她学习了魔法来复生姐姐，为什么她要坐视“生死循环”，而不采取行动把她带回来？

 

跳过你帖子中的大部分游戏玩法部分，直接来说说你提到的“哀悼荣耀”那句台词，特别是如何看待阿比盖尔的永久离去定义了温蒂的性格：我同意这个失落确实定义了她的性格。然而，重要的是要注意，这被描述为一次“尝试”，意味着温蒂尝试过，但并没有成功。

 

我同意关于“复活祭坛”那句台词的看法，那句台词对温蒂来说是不合适的。我认为Klei想传达的氛围是凯旋的、超越了凡人的，这应该是试图展示技能树如何让角色变得更强的结果，但确实，如果台词更谦逊一点会更好。也许可以改成类似她不能让自己死去，直到救回阿比盖尔的台词？

 

关于她移动墓碑的技能，我认为技能描述文本是与角色相关的：“温蒂可以重新安置墓碑，将孤独的灵魂聚集在一起。”挖掘尸体并将其移走几乎是一个普遍的禁忌。我不明白为什么有些人在这个讨论中声称这没什么大不了的，实际上这是很重要的。至少在美国，确实有一个例外：对于那些意外死亡或被谋杀并且被埋葬在远离家人的地方的人，移动他们的墓地是更加可以接受的。我相信这正是温蒂在背景故事中应该做的事情。也许不是把他们带回家人身边，因为他们都在永恒领域，但她可以确保他们在死后不会孤单。

 

技能描述文本也与大惊吓召唤相关：“温蒂可以用花朵装饰墓碑，带给墓中灵魂欢愉。”在我看来，这听起来不像是她强迫它们成为她的仆人，而是它们因温蒂关心并用花装饰它们的墓碑而感到高兴，于是出于感激而出来支持她。

 

[Steorra]

2 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

A living human who tries to rip them out of that peace is twisting their soul through that effort.

 

2 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

Again, in the Christian model, to be in the afterlife is to be in heaven, at peace, and so removing a spirit from the afterlife to tether them into this world for any reason is seen as forcing them out of paradise. In this worldview, Wendy summoning Abigail's ghost is in fact "selfish": she took Abigail out of her eternal blissful rest because Wendy couldn't imagine life without her and was in deep grief over losing her. Does this make her a bad person? Of course not. It's very understandable for a child who's lost the person closest to her to be willing to do just about anything to get that person back. Nobody thinks clearly when they're grieving. But it is in line with the often-seen story about necromancy in which someone tries to revive the spirit of a loved one, only for their attempt to go wrong and for the dead loved one to come back not quite right.

Glad to see some deep discussion like your words, and I especially love these part. I was watched a video which was talking about the morals issue when people use necromancy in DnD world, and some part of that video gave similar discussion like yours here. And I think these is logical and reasonable.

2 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

Without getting into the weeds too much, the Star of David is frequently appropriated and twisted as a generic symbol of demons, spooky magic, or general edginess, with the result that people don't think of it as what it is: the symbol of Judaism.

But I have to say sorry to this part. I'm a paganism. Which means yes I guess I'm the one who you mentioned in these sentences - the Star of David means some other things to me, and those things might be something which you don't like. I personally think people need not to be too serious to religion and occultism symbol which appears in pop cultures. Since the media, internet and video would almost never be a serious thing of religion or occultism expression.

[Swiyss]

On 1/14/2025 at 6:38 PM, Wendyskill said:

there is no evidence that Wendy exhibits any cruel behavior

That's basically a lie. She has a bunch of lines that mention causing suffering, pain and torture directly to enemies, animals and even critters.

On 1/14/2025 at 6:38 PM, Wendyskill said:

Now, petals placed in the Sisturn will rot into Mourning Glory

This is ridiculous, why would we disregard Pispooks completely and substitute them with a almost offensively easy way to do it? It's like suggesting nightmare fuel can now be created by rotting birchnut seeds in shadow chester, no one would fight nightmare creatures then. There is a very clear view of an unbalance here.

On 1/14/2025 at 6:38 PM, Wendyskill said:

So cooooool

This design is amazing. I think Klei should take inspiration. It increases the immersion a lot.

[Yaorin yon]

26 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

This is ridiculous, why would we disregard Pispooks completely and substitute them with a almost offensively easy way to do it? It's like suggesting nightmare fuel can now be created by rotting birchnut seeds in shadow chester, no one would fight nightmare creatures then. There is a very clear view of an unbalance here.

Why are characters like Villo and Votox allowed to obtain exclusive items through almost all creatures, and relying on the functions attached to their skills to easily obtain their exclusive items, while Wendy can only have three bloated designs that only serve to increase Pispouks production?

And as far as I know, players can obtain Nightmare Fuel in at least 10 ways. If Mourning Glory has as rich a way to obtain Nightmare Fuel as Nightmare Fuel, I may agree with your statement, but currently it seems that only Pispooks have one way, so I think the current design is unbalanced.

[Swiyss]

18 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

Why are characters like Villo and Votox allowed to obtain exclusive items through almost all creatures, and relying on the functions attached to their skills to easily obtain their exclusive items, while Wendy can only have three bloated designs that only serve to increase Pispouks production?

The reason why Willow and Wortox are allowed to do that is because, in case you have no idea, they both use it way more than Wendy. Willow uses 5 embers on her affinity skills, and burning frenzy is 2 embers, using both is already 7. In a fight, spamming her embers, it's almost a stack of 40, in a single fight. Wortox take creature's soul, it's their animosity that counts towards receiving it. Wortox will use souls to teleport, which is his MAIN perk. Wendy's main perk is not to use her elixirs, but to use abigail itself. You actually have to be greatful that Klei didn't decide to nerf abigail and force the player to use Mourning Glory to keep her spawned, similar to how maxwell have to use nightmare fuel to use his puppets.

22 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

And as far as I know, players can obtain Nightmare Fuel in at least 10 ways. If Mourning Glory has as rich a way to obtain Nightmare Fuel as Nightmare Fuel, I may agree with your statement, but currently it seems that only Pispooks have one way, so I think the current design is unbalanced.

There's only one way to obtain pure brilliance outside of character's skill trees, and the desing is not unbalanced.
There's only one way to obtain Silk outside of Webber's beard, and that is not unbalanced as well. 

All of those are primary resources. Wendy's Mourning Glory is not a primary resource, It's a luxury resource that is used on only elixirs. It's a niche character specific resource that ties into a fun way to obtain it. If not, Klei should make pipspook have 2 more quests, with different ways to obtain it, be it digging something, searching elsewhere or even performing a ritual to put the pispook's soul to sleep. I'd advocate for more minigames and quests, not less.

[Yaorin yon]

6 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

The reason why Willow and Wortox are allowed to do that is because, in case you have no idea, they both use it way more than Wendy. Willow uses 5 embers on her affinity skills, and burning frenzy is 2 embers, using both is already 7. In a fight, spamming her embers, it's almost a stack of 40, in a single fight. Wortox take creature's soul, it's their animosity that counts towards receiving it. Wortox will use souls to teleport, which is his MAIN perk. Wendy's main perk is not to use her elixirs, but to use abigail itself. You actually have to be greatful that Klei didn't decide to nerf abigail and force the player to use Mourning Glory to keep her spawned, similar to how maxwell have to use nightmare fuel to use his puppets.

There's only one way to obtain pure brilliance outside of character's skill trees, and the desing is not unbalanced.
There's only one way to obtain Silk outside of Webber's beard, and that is not unbalanced as well. 

Do you want to tell me that I should be grateful that there are 12 skill points in a skill tree related to Mourning Glory products, so Mourning Glory is actually secondary to Wendy? And I can only obtain mourning glory through Pispouks, which is an unparalleled honor? Just using absurdity seems far from enough to describe what you are saying.