Nerf Maxwell and Wanda

[Jakepeng99]

42 minutes ago, Vinja said:

How exactly do you figure that?

They just straight up are stronger.

49 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

I don't believe you know Wanda that well how I have from that statement. She basically has either of choice of being regular like Wilson, or level up a little higher as Wigfrid or become Wolfgang depending on your frailty.

She may not have Maxwell level of health but she is still a risk reward character. I don't understand what makes people think she isn't when they probably don't even play her old version at all. Delusional to think otherwise for how she's designed to be specifically to have her that damage condition.

I aint delusional. She has infinite healing and has no downsides from night armour, making her have an effective of 750hp at old age, same as a full hp wilson with a football helmet. Her weapon also has range making her really safe and not risky. And she has backtreck watch and the ability to cancel damage, with a refuelable cheap weapon.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Vinja said:

How exactly do you figure that?

it was revealed to me in a dream

[Cats_On_Fire]

2 hours ago, Vinja said:

"No matter how weak they will be so OP"

In their current state I very rarely see either of them used, so if it's a weak skill tree that doesn't add much to them they'll forever remain once-strong characters that no one really cares about anymore. That would suck.

Secondly, this isn't a competitive game. I don't know why people here care so much about "balance" but only when it applies to characters they aren't interested in playing. Willow is insanely strong. Her lunar flames decimate foes without even needing to be anywhere near their attack range. She's "OP". Wurt snowballs like crazy and destroys anything in front of her with her army of upgraded and armored up merms. She's "OP". Winona can literally melt entire raid bosses in mere seconds at the tap of a button. She's "OP". If we actually give a single crap about balance we need to start by nerfing these 3, not pre-nerfing characters who don't even have a skilltree yet.

Wanda has a unique health mechanic that makes her a challenging character to play, and Maxwell has a very low max HP making him also a challenging character to play. They're both incredibly outdated. Wanda only gets "competitively" high dps (which isn't even competitive anymore when you consider other characters skills into account) when she's low hp, and Maxwells dps potential is very high but at this point in the game there are characters who get even higher dps than he could ever hope for and are much easier to play, for example, all the characters I listed above besides maybe willow but willow can literally stand outside of range and melt anything often times without even getting hit. Who cares about dps when bringing armor and healing to a fight is OPTIONAL.

Just because a character was strong 4 years ago doesn't mean they're strong now. In my opinion this view is incredibly out of touch. These two are both outdated and need new powerful skills to get them closer in line with the new strength/fun level of other characters.

Wurt will forever snowball. It's been like that since the beginning 

[GrapeVruit]

1 hour ago, Vinja said:

Secondly, this isn't a competitive game. I don't know why people here care so much about "balance" but only when it applies to characters they aren't interested in playing. Willow is insanely strong. Her lunar flames decimate foes without even needing to be anywhere near their attack range. She's "OP". Wurt snowballs like crazy and destroys anything in front of her with her army of upgraded and armored up merms. She's "OP". Winona can literally melt entire raid bosses in mere seconds at the tap of a button. She's "OP". If we actually give a single crap about balance we need to start by nerfing these 3, not pre-nerfing characters who don't even have a skilltree yet.

I'm kind of getting sick of the "it's not a competitive game, so balance doesn't matter" argument. It makes it sound like everything should buffed and nerfs deserved to be thrown out all together. Sure, DST isn't like Valorant or Overwatch, but balance is still important to not make certain stages of gameplay trivial and unrewarding.

 

The characters you mentioned, Winona and Wurt, while they're really strong once they get their armies and machines up, they AT LEAST have to put in the work and resources to make use of their kits. Meanwhile, all Willow has do to get her spells is by surviving x number of days, killing CC and Fuelweaver, or cheating them in via console commands and suddenly she has an incredible amount of power day 1, on any given server. Giving characters so much power right out of the gate not only makes the early game a breeze, but it also makes the character less interesting to play overtime, since you've got no other incentives to work toward and nothing is able to stand in your way, barring a clumsy mistake, at least IMO.

Why can't we have characters that are "OP" that don't have everything handed to them at spawn and have to actually work towards making their kits stronger? They're still strong at the end of the day, but getting to that point by progressing in the game and exploring different parts of the world would be a lot more rewarding and fun. 

[Vinja]

Just now, GrapeVruit said:

I'm kind of getting sick of the "it's not a competitive game, so balance doesn't matter" argument. It makes it sound like everything should buffed and nerfs deserved to be thrown out all together. Sure, DST isn't like Valorant or Overwatch, but balance is still important to not make certain stages of gameplay trivial and unrewarding.

 

The characters you mentioned, Winona and Wurt, while they're really strong once they get their armies and machines up, they AT LEAST have to put in the work and resources to make use of their kits. Meanwhile, all Willow has do to get her spells is by surviving x number of days, killing CC and Fuelweaver, or cheating them in via console commands and suddenly she has an incredible amount of power day 1, on any given server. Giving characters so much power right out of the gate not only makes the early game a breeze, but it also makes the character less interesting to play overtime, since you've got no other incentives to work toward and nothing is able to stand in your way, barring a clumsy mistake, at least IMO.

Why can't we have characters that are "OP" that don't have everything handed to them at spawn and have to actually work towards making their kits stronger? They're still strong at the end of the day, but getting to that point by progressing in the game and exploring different parts of the world would be a lot more rewarding and fun. 

Lol yeah mining rocks and chopping trees is much more work than killing celestial champion, good point

I play ps5 no console commands here buddy.

Do you want the game balanced or not? Wurt isn't balanced, doesn't matter if you have to chop a few trees to reach her potential.

[GrapeVruit]

2 minutes ago, Vinja said:

Lol yeah mining rocks and chopping trees is much more work than killing celestial champion, good point

I play ps5 no console commands here buddy.

Do you want the game balanced or not? Wurt isn't balanced, doesn't matter if you have to chop a few trees to reach her potential.

What I want is for characters to actually work for their strengths instead of getting handed straight buffs for no effort other than survival. To me, a character that's balanced isn't one who's able to do so much in the end, but one's who need to work towards that by progressing through the game while having to deal with their downsides. A character that's unbalanced IMO, is one who gets everything they need to take on the world, with little to no effort on their part, trivializing not only the early game, but even certain characters. 

[Vinja]

30 minutes ago, GrapeVruit said:

What I want is for characters to actually work for their strengths instead of getting handed straight buffs for no effort other than survival. To me, a character that's balanced isn't one who's able to do so much in the end, but one's who need to work towards that by progressing through the game while having to deal with their downsides. A character that's unbalanced IMO, is one who gets everything they need to take on the world, with little to no effort on their part, trivializing not only the early game, but even certain characters. 

And which characters precisely do you believe fit into each category?

[GrapeVruit]

1 hour ago, Vinja said:

And which characters precisely do you believe fit into each category?

I'd say Warly is the prime example of a character who is well balanced. Warly has the potential to make food that gives him insane buffs. One's which increase his damage, work efficiency, damage reduction, and make him immune to rain, the heat, and the cold. However, in order for him to get all those perks, he has to progress through the game and WORK for them. He has make different crockpot meals to satisfy his refined palate and not eat too many of them in succession, has to explore the map for beehives in order to make honey for his honey crystals, spend time farming and praying to the RNG gods that he gets a pepper, garlic, or dragon fruit plant, and not to mention farming volt goats in order to get their horns. While it's a lot to go through with Warly in order to get to all of his buffs, the journey to get there feels SO much more rewarding since the game encourages you to be active.

Compare this to a character like Maxwell who, in my opinion, is INCREDIBLY unbalanced. While Maxwell does have progression in the form of getting magic items, such as the Magician's hat, Dreadstone armor, Bone armor/helm, and the shadow thurible, that progression only extends to one part of his kit, his shadow duelists, with everything else spawning in with him feature complete from day 1. And it's STUPIDLY powerful. For simply pressing a button in the codex menu, he's able to summon up to 6 shadow servants which pick grass tufts and saplings, chop trees, and mine boulders. And once the job is done, they'll pick up the items from the ground and hand them directly to Maxwell, who doesn't even need participate in those activities at all. He's able to summon a shadow trap which is able to cause mobs to panic, making them unable to attack for 15 seconds and allowing Maxwell and his minions to get free hits in. And finally, as if Maxwell didn't already have enough going for him, there's the shadow prison, which allows Maxwell to trap mobs within large shadow pillars, immobilizing them for a few seconds, and even extending to BOSSES. And if THAT wasn't enough, he's able to read Wickerbottom's books, reaping the benefits of each while leaving Wickerbottom with not much purpose. The only downside that's there to keep his strengths in check is his 75 max health, and while it's quite an impactful downside, it's almost undermined by all the spells he has right out of the portal. Plus, depending on the player, they'll just go and tame a beefalo, making his low max health, in most situations, absolutely redundant.

[Koomin]

I'd enjoy a Maxwell/Wanda nerf just so that I don't have to read "no one is allowed to talk about balance as long as Maxwell and Wanda exist" in like 50% of the beta threads every time as if it's some silver bullet statement.

[GrapeVruit]

1 minute ago, Koomin said:

I'd enjoy a Maxwell/Wanda nerf just so that I don't have to read "no one is allowed to talk about balance as long as Maxwell and Wanda exist" in like 50% of the beta threads every time as if it's some silver bullet statement.

Ain't that the truth. I don't think that statement is much of a "gotcha" moment as they're making it out to be.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, GrapeVruit said:

I'd say Warly is the prime example of a character who is well balanced. Warly has the potential to make food that gives him insane buffs. One's which increase his damage, work efficiency, damage reduction, and make him immune to rain, the heat, and the cold. However, in order for him to get all those perks, he has to progress through the game and WORK for them. He has make different crockpot meals to satisfy his refined palate and not eat too many of them in succession, has to explore the map for beehives in order to make honey for his honey crystals, spend time farming and praying to the RNG gods that he gets a pepper, garlic, or dragon fruit plant, and not to mention farming volt goats in order to get their horns. While it's a lot to go through with Warly in order to get to all of his buffs, the journey to get there feels SO much more rewarding since the game encourages you to be active.

I've met multiple warly mains who basically all agree that this whole process is a slog to go through and that warly isn't for everyone, warly is honestly one of the worst designed characters in the game right now IMO and a terrible example of how to distribute powerful abilities

[GrapeVruit]

23 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I've met multiple warly mains who basically all agree that this whole process is a slog to go through and that warly isn't for everyone, warly is honestly one of the worst designed characters in the game right now IMO and a terrible example of how to distribute powerful abilities

That's just me putting in my two cents. I'm a sucker for this kind of progression but I can totally understand why most wouldn't be down for it. I wouldn't call him one of the worst designed characters in the game, though, far from it.

[Cuernito.]

Both are really hard to use characters, and both have real downsides, remember that maxwell health is actually a big issue for noobs and intermediate players so i dont see a reason to hard nerf them, dont worry about the skill tree my friend klei is smart enough to do a good job balancing both. After all we are getting wortox skill tree with some downsides so, think about a maxy skill tree with new stuff like temporary shadow armor made by codex umbra that need to fragment maxwell health in order to be used, a skill like that can be pretty fun and the same time not really good. 

[GrapeVruit]

13 minutes ago, Shining Galaxy said:

Wolfgang completely dodged the discussion, haha. Both Max and Wanda are facing survival pressure and weakened damage due to the rifts, and they both haven't got any skill tree yet, while Wolf's skill tree allows him to keep tanking the BOSS after the rift. I originally thought the rift was a balance to the character's DPS, but then they gave Wolf a +25 planar damage in their second wave of skill tree updates.

I mean, the thread's about Max and Wanda, so it makes sense why Wolfgang wouldn't be discussed. Though, now that you mention it, yeah, Wolfgang's power is absurd, second to Max IMO. Even without his skilltree, maintaining mightiness is way too easy. You can literally get mighty as soon as you spawn in by just pressing the lift button, and even in combat, you just keep hitting stuff and it'll always be topped off. I kinda hope they go back to the might lost on hit downside, maybe make it less punishing or have it be related to Wolf's sanity meter, where the more scared he is, the more mightiness he loses? I dunno, just something that could make him more engaging, I guess.

[Echsrick]

ok, but only if we nerf the 4th character in the sellection aswell

[Edible Coal]

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I've met multiple warly mains who basically all agree that this whole process is a slog to go through and that warly isn't for everyone, warly is honestly one of the worst designed characters in the game right now IMO and a terrible example of how to distribute powerful abilities

hes not design badly, but rather the reward for working so hard for his special dishes usually end up a waste of time.

moqueca is nice but getting perogies and other healing food are much faster and spammable

if i have time to get honey, then why dont i just use that time to chop trees

if i have time to make seasonal dishes, why dont i just get seasonal gears that can easily do the same thing but better

the voltgoat jelly warly spend time getting it probably wont be use by warly himself anyways because theres always another dmg dealer that can use it better than him 

[Jakepeng99]

13 hours ago, ChintzyGnat said:

Whens the last time you've played either of these 2 for a substantial amount of time?

Id consider Maxwell one of my mains, i have played him alot though not recently.

For Wanda, i have played her tons when she came out, and a little recently.

[ZeRoboButler]

2 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

hes not design badly, but rather the reward for working so hard for his special dishes usually end up a waste of time.

moqueca is nice but getting perogies and other healing food are much faster and spammable

if i have time to get honey, then why dont i just use that time to chop trees

if i have time to make seasonal dishes, why dont i just get seasonal gears that can easily do the same thing but better

the voltgoat jelly warly spend time getting it probably wont be use by warly himself anyways because theres always another dmg dealer that can use it better than him 

I personally having played so much of Warly, could never view working hard for something of value, a waste of time. (I would argue getting a decent amount can be a slog time wise)

 Moqueca is pretty nice (in game and irl, like it a lot myself) but some foods in this game are "luxury foods", Moqueca, waffles, wobster-dinner, ice-cream and jelly salad (veggie burger to I suppose), are not stuff you are gonna have on hand all the time. Most of this is the case early game, but later on when you have established yourself more via farming, fishing spots, and lure plant bulbs, you get the luxury of high value foods that you can use a lot of with little concern as well as variety. 

Honey is always valuable I would say, and it really isn't that much of a time sink to get. With the buff you can clear a bunch of stuff like rocks and trees fast, and not worry about the resource for a while if you gather in bulk.

Seasonal dishes can also fall in to the luxury category, but the best part about them, is they actually free up slots during certain events, rain, heat, cold, you prevent it all with food and can focus on the combat or ignore part of the season to focus on whatever it is you have your sights on. Also, you still want seasonal gear, warly has great options and choices as a result of his foods, but only using the foods would be a flex and a bit of a waste of resources unless you have a wickerbottom blasting the soil with literature. It all situational, as it should be.

Plenty of people play warly for his perks and continue to do so, but far more do use him for his food and swap, I personally don't care for it and like to spend my time in a world as the character I chose, but I wouldn't take it away from people either. If people want to optimize the fun out of a game, well that is kinda a person to person issue, and for some it's how they have fun.

(although I wouldn't mind perks for him in future that are more inherent to him rather then just foods others can eat, stuff that would keep a warly playing because they have those benefits)

Ideally they try to do something interesting for maxwell and wanda, with very very minor focus on combat and more focus on their themes. More magic stuff for the magician and more time based interactions for the time traveler, stuff like the backstep but with different utility.   

 

[djturner]

I used to play a ton of Maxwell but only returned to him recently after having largely played nothing but insight tree characters for 6-8 months. I actually think his power level is right in line with what they're shooting for now. Honestly, I thought he was a little underwhelming after playing so much Willow and Winona. Putting aside whether it would've been a good idea or not, if there was a window of time to pull back the power creep of the game by nerfing Wanda and refresh Maxwell, imo we are long, long since that window being shut. It would be pointless now since their current levels of power have clearly served as a benchmark for what is acceptable in (multiple) insight tree power levels, and I would definitely argue that benchmark has been exceeded on more than one occasion.

EDIT: Slightly unrelated but to contribute to this side conversation... Warly is, to me, a well-designed and fun challenge character. I love playing him and I love the mental aspect of tracking your meals and mastering the crockpot, whereas most characters can get by with one or two staple dishes. In terms of balance, his upside is nowhere near high enough to justify the unique challenges the character presents (relative to other characters), but that, to me, is the fun of it. He captures the essence of Don't Starve as I originally remember it, providing just enough power to conquer everything in a satisfying way locked behind just enough knowledge, RNG, and skill. I assume an insight tree will make him more accessible, because as he is, he is definitely not for everybody. Still not sure whether that's something I'm excited about.

[Y0sH]

13 hours ago, NekoSoulx said:

Both are really hard to use characters, and both have real downsides, remember that maxwell health is actually a big issue for noobs and intermediate players so i dont see a reason to hard nerf them, dont worry about the skill tree my friend klei is smart enough to do a good job balancing both. After all we are getting wortox skill tree with some downsides so, think about a maxy skill tree with new stuff like temporary shadow armor made by codex umbra that need to fragment maxwell health in order to be used, a skill like that can be pretty fun and the same time not really good. 

Just casually mentioning an amazing ability idea for Maxwell's Skilltree lol

[Cuernito.]

56 minutes ago, Y0sH said:

Just casually mentioning an amazing ability idea for Maxwell's Skilltree lol

I dont think it is that good but it was a good example of skill with draw backs, and i always use grass armor at start with maxwell.

[00petar00]

While it is true that balance shouldn't matter that much since it isn't a competitive game it is possible to take nuances and say that it doesn't matter that some characters are strong because different players prefer different playstyle.

I would have half the hours I have played If Wanda was never released but there was a chance I could play Maxwell and have similar amount of hours played.

Why do some players have to be jealous in some way? Why not allow players that don't enjoy survival as much but prefer sandbox to have fun with the game? Not everyone wants to be punished all the time and play a weak character and I don't believe that other characters need to be buffed to match strong characters either because there are players that enjoy playing a weaker character.

[Edible Coal]

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

While it is true that balance shouldn't matter that much since it isn't a competitive game it is possible to take nuances and say that it doesn't matter that some characters are strong because different players prefer different playstyle.

I would have half the hours I have played If Wanda was never released but there was a chance I could play Maxwell and have similar amount of hours played.

Why do some players have to be jealous in some way? Why not allow players that don't enjoy survival as much but prefer sandbox to have fun with the game? Not everyone wants to be punished all the time and play a weak character and I don't believe that other characters need to be buffed to match strong characters either because there are players that enjoy playing a weaker character.

i think weak character provide a fun experience as u slowly become stronger as u acquire better gear and ultimately become a strong character. having things to do makes it more interesting than just immedialy get ur whole kit in the first day 

[00petar00]

8 minutes ago, Edible Coal said:

i think weak character provide a fun experience as u slowly become stronger as u acquire better gear and ultimately become a strong character. having things to do makes it more interesting than just immedialy get ur whole kit in the first day 

A weak character that becomes strong in like 20-100 days isn't a weak character to me because I have a different perspective. I would love to see a character that becomes the strongest after 100-200 days because I often play long term/endless so it doesn't matter to me how long it takes, I just want to get the most benefits and to counter survival mechanics that get boring after first game year.

[Mike23Ua]

On 1/12/2025 at 3:52 PM, Vinja said:

Lol yeah mining rocks and chopping trees is much more work than killing celestial champion, good point

I play ps5 no console commands here buddy.

Do you want the game balanced or not? Wurt isn't balanced, doesn't matter if you have to chop a few trees to reach her potential.

Here’s the thing: You only need to kill CC and AFW ONCE, and as Any character you want to do it as (including Wolfgang) and once you do that- Affinities are unlocked permanently and forever across any and all future play sessions.

Meanwhile: I’m over here watching in horror as Klei makes the repeated mistake of adding extremely powerful Affinity perks to characters like Wurts Mutated Merms, Wendy’s Boss killer Abigail Buffs, and Willows Kamehameha blast from hell..

It would be DIFFERENT if players had to kill the CC & AFW per game world, per character they want to unlock these powerful skills as.

In an intended gameplay loop: your meant to struggle your way through killing several other bosses before finally reaching CC & AFW.

Not Steam Roll through the game at 175 MPH because you beat those bosses ONCE before five years ago then stopped playing, came back five years later after a ton of new updates and content was added that was balanced around not yet having access to those Ahem … “END GAME” Perks…

and you blew through five years of new content because Klei didn’t take into account that you’d have CC or AFW affinities in all future game sessions.

Or worse: Maybe they DID take that into account, but did not care.