Wendy feedback - skill tree is overtuned

[Steorra]

24 minutes ago, Dingle said:

disagree

Tbh this is a problem which should be taken seriously. Just imagine that, after several adjustments of amounts, all skills like Abi's survival, team spirit, Cursed Vex, Affinity Abi, and some aesthetic issues got fix, then what we have? That skill tree might be balance but would still be boring tbh.

The pipspooks need recheck or even rework for base kit aspects but not for skill tree. They are individually mini game at the current stage and they are unpopular and boring. The skill line of pipspooks give no answer to this question but only give some buff to the amounts, then some of us think it is enough, others may think it is OP on amounts? But they are still boring whatever you buff or nerf their amounts.

The wraith wreath, tbh, have same problem like pipspooks. It just a bit better, but still bad. It is another individual thing which have no combo with current other stuffs of Wendy. 

And the revival altar, another form of live giving amulet. Wortox has a skill for resurrection is reasonable since his nice tendency is aiming for team supporting, and his resurrection skill have a teleport feature which is relative with Wortox's main feature. But what about the altar of Wendy? It is weird here and boring.

After current sisturn III patched out too many people started focusing on it since they think it is OP, then they rise other side players to against it. Then nobody cares how a boring skill tree Wendy has now.

Even all balance problems got fixed the current skill tree of Wendy would just be another Wolfgang tree. Koomin has awared some problems of this but they was thought that the problem could be fix by amounts balancing adjustment. But I have more sad attitude and worries about this.

[Dingle]

16 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

 

 

No one specifically was mentioned, just that all what Koomin said happened.  Not sure what the issue is?

[Dingle]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Tbh this is a problem which should be taken seriously. Just imagine that, after several adjustments of amounts, all skills like Abi's survival, team spirit, Cursed Vex, Affinity Abi, and some aesthetic issues got fix, then what we have? That skill tree might be balance but would still be boring tbh.

The pipspooks need recheck or even rework for base kit aspects but not for skill tree. They are individually mini game at the current stage and they are unpopular and boring. The skill line of pipspooks give no answer to this question but only give some buff to the amounts, then some of us think it is enough, others may think it is OP on amounts? But they are still boring whatever you buff or nerf their amounts.

The wraith wreath, tbh, have same problem like pipspooks. It just a bit better, but still bad. It is another individual thing which have no combo with current other staffs of Wendy. 

And the revival altar, another form of live giving amulet. Wortox has a skill for resurrection is reasonable since his nice tendency is aiming for team supporting, and his resurrection skill have a teleport feature which is relative with Wortox's main feature. But what about the altar of Wendy? It is weird here and boring.

After current sisturn III patched out too many people started focusing on it since they think it is OP, then they rise other side players to against it. Then nobody cares how a boring skill tree Wendy has 

Seems workable. Though this list doesn't mean she's not already overtuned.

I thought some auto mourning glory thing would be nice for people. I proposed putting it as a new graves 3 in a different thread.

Base kit change seems unlikely. I already find the pipspooks less annoying than Winonas minigame. I think I did the pipspook quest maybe 3 or 4 times in my nearly 40 day playthrough, and had tons of elixirs. 

I've seen people like thr wraith wreathe. You get a lot of things for a point (2 points if you never resurrect a butterfly). Seems really fun for multiplayer.

I don't know what people want for the altar.

I've pointed out the problems with sisturn 3 before. Surprised if they don't change it. It's going to disappoint everyone once they realize how few bosses it works on (except maybe speedrunners that are bad at combat, and want a way to stomp the 3 strong bosses it applies to)

 

 

 

[SilverSpoon]

13 minutes ago, Dingle said:

No one specifically was mentioned, just that all what Koomin said happened.  Not sure what the issue is?

Even if that "happened" were true or it wasn't just a counter attack to an insult from the anti-Wendy side, there is no need to curse Klei or anyone else in feedback. It will only cause to blind people with anger and your feedback to come across as just to get back at they or joking.

[Steorra]

12 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I thought some auto mourning glory thing would be nice for people. I proposed putting it as a new graves 3 in a different thread.

This could be a bit better and welcomed for many players who were unsatisfied before as I guess. But still not enough. But I guess we all have a desperately attitude to Klei and we all thought Klei already have no resources to rework pipspooks base kit to solve the main problem.

Yes ofc pipspooks is better than Winona's mini game, but Winona's tree have more things and builds for interesting gameplay. Wendy... Seems only have Lunar Abi and Shadow Abi. All other skills of her tree is just simple copy paste of what the game already have and with simple amounts changes like +50% +300 -20% etc. And this is why people feels disappointed to Wendy skill tree from the very beginning. The Sisturn III and the Lunar Abi were two new mechanic for Wendy, but Sisturn III is another form of amounts change (it is welcomed only because it is urgently needed like shadow afinity and Hunger protection for Woodie, not because it is interesting enough) Lunar Abi were overturned into broken and even she could got fix in future she was still not for every playstyle.

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Even if that "happened" were true or it wasn't just a counter attack to an insult from the anti-Wendy side, there is no need to curse Klei or anyone else in feedback. It will only cause to blind people with anger and your feedback to come across as just to get back at they or joking.

It happened though. Forums were very brigaded at start of beta. There's still traces of it, the moderators are pretty fast at cleaning it up now though.

Please don't derail. It's unfair to block discussion by using this tactic, and it didn't work to get this thread locked earlier, anyway.

Make a new thread for this if you need.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

This could be a bit better and welcomed for many players who were unsatisfied before as I guess. But still not enough. But I guess we all have a desperately attitude to Klei and we all thought Klei already have no resources to rework pipspooks base kit to solve the main problem.

Yes ofc pipspooks is better than Winona's mini game, but Winona's tree have more things and builds for interesting gameplay. Wendy... Seems only have Lunar Abi and Shadow Abi. All other skills of her tree is just simple copy paste of what 

I meant that it seems unlikely for the pipspook quest to be removed entirely.

I brought up Winona because its another example of them using something like that to slow a character down.

If you're reductive enough, "just some number increases and a few interesting things mixed in" pretty much describes every skill tree, ever. Not just in this game.

[DaDa_waw]

55 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I disagree.

It's okay, this is just my personal opinion as the main player who played Wendy in the past decade. If possible, I would prefer Wendy to have a skill tree like wortox

55 minutes ago, Dingle said:

As for the moon bosses, see my discussion with Steorra in this thread on Armored Bearger. She just outright obliterates Lunar Varg, as shadow abby with Murder stuns Varg as soon as he tries his flame breath. Crystal Deerclops also is not a problem, its attacks are pretty directional. I could look for a video of that one.

My term for the skill tree's ability to handle these problems is' mediocre '. I don't deny that they are handling problems, but they are very' mediocre '. I have personally tested them myself, and it is still the same evaluation as before that Wendy spent several times more energy than Wilson and completed Wilson's tasks slightly better“

[Steorra]

22 minutes ago, Dingle said:

It happened though. Forums were very brigaded at start of beta. There's still traces of it, the moderators are pretty fast at cleaning it up now though.

Please don't derail. It's unfair to block discussion by using this tactic, and it didn't work to get this thread locked earlier, anyway.

Make a new thread for this if you need.

Might be off topic but I feeling like that SilverSpoons was just exhausted about these arguments which flows bad emotions. 

Tbh my aspie feature gave much helps to these emotion mess for these periods since it just make me used to focus on truth problems more than personal emotions, but sometimes I feel tired as well. Appreciately that some of us were step into "players VS issues" from the "emotions VS emotions". Tbh I'm feeling lucky I could discuss something with you, Koomin, SilverSpoons, Fitze (sorry not sure how to spell their name they become inactived these days) and many others in this forum during this beta period even sometimes we have completely different opinions. 

22 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I meant that it seems unlikely for the pipspook quest to be removed entirely

I agree with this and I won't ask to completely remove it. I hope we could keep its' current features but have more varieties funs from it in future. Current is boring but ok. To solve a boring issue might not need to remove it, but just adding some new mechanic might helps.

 

22 minutes ago, Dingle said:

If you're reductive enough, "just some number increases and a few interesting things mixed in" pretty much describes every skill tree, ever. Not just in this game.

yes you're right, but my point is more like to say that "some number changes might result new gameplay, but for current Wendy's tree many of them could not, that's the reason why Wendy's tree is still unsatisfied for some people." If we have almost only 1 or 2 potential builds which divided by affinities line for Wendy in the end... This is just another Wolfgang tree imo.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Might be off topic but I feeling like that SilverSpoons was just exhausted about these arguments which flows bad emotions. 

Tbh my aspie feature gave much helps to these emotion mess for these periods since it just make me used to focus on truth problems more than personal emotions, but sometimes I feel tired as well. Appreciately that some of us were step into "players VS issues" from the "emotions VS emotions". Tbh I'm feeling lucky I could discuss something with you, Koomin, SilverSpoons, Fitze (sorry not sure how to spell their name they become inactived these days) and many others in this forum during this beta period even sometimes we have completely different opinions. 

I disagree with you a lot, but know your opinions are usually genuine.

It's hard sometimes to keep good faith discussion going, because I can identify people that I know are pretending that Wendy has issues that she doesn't have. Just a ploy to get her buffed as much as possible. They will never be happy, because that means less buffs.

I'm interested to see what the next hotfix brings for Wendy.

[SilverSpoon]

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

It happened though. Forums were very brigaded at start of beta. There's still traces of it, the moderators are pretty fast at cleaning it up now though.

Again, Even if that "happened" were true, there is no need to curse Klei or anyone else in feedback.

I was on the forums before this drama happened and I watched it, and I  sincerely guarantee you that both the Wendy side and the Anti-Wendy side were equally as  "the hoard of clamours for buffs/nerfs at all costs accompanied by insults."  to say like only Wendy-side behaved so
and use that as a weapon to justify your own feedback, It's exactly "unfair".

15 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Please don't derail. It's unfair to block discussion by using this tactic, and it didn't work to get this thread locked earlier, anyway.

Make a new thread for this if you need.

That's why people must not include curses in feedback. In the first place, you started this conversation, include curses in feedback will push you and me and everyone further and further off topic, which may eventually lock the thread.
I never make new thread about this. Forums, especially the beta forums, should be about game, not people.

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Again, Even if that "happened" were true, there is no need to curse Klei or anyone else in feedback.

I was on the forums before this drama happened and I watched it, and I  sincerely guarantee you that both the Wendy side and the Anti-Wendy side were equally as  "the hoard of clamours for buffs/nerfs at all costs accompanied by insults."  to say like only Wendy-side behaved so
and use that as a weapon to justify your own feedback, It's exactly "unfair".

That's why people must not include curses in feedback. In the first place, you started this conversation, include curses in feedback will push you and me and everyone further and further off topic, which may eventually lock the thread.
I never make new thread about this. Forums, especially the beta forums, should be about game, not people.

No one was specifically mentioned though? And it does really explain how Wendy got to the overtuned state.

Respectfully, it seems relevant to the discussion in regards to Wendy changes over time.

[SilverSpoon]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

No one was specifically mentioned though? And it does really explain how Wendy got to the overtuned state.

Respectfully, it seems relevant to the discussion in regards to Wendy changes over time.

It doesn't matter if it's specifically mentioned or not specifically mentioned. All what I want to say is "Don't include curses in feedback, no excuse", period.

[congrongfuguo]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

这是一个应该认真对待的问题。试想一下，经过几次数量的调整，像Abi的生存，团队精神，诅咒Vex，亲和Abi等所有技能，以及一些美学问题都得到了修复，那么我们还有什么？那个技能树可能是平衡的，但是仍然会很无聊。

精灵需要重新检查甚至返工基础装备，但不需要技能树。它们在现阶段是一个个迷你游戏，不受欢迎而且无聊。pipspooks的技能线没有回答这个问题，只是给了一些buff的数量，然后我们中的一些人认为这足够了，其他人可能认为这是OP的数量？但是不管你怎么增加或减少他们的数量，他们还是很无聊。

幽灵花环，tbh，有和幽灵一样的问题。只是稍微好一点，但还是不好。这是另一个独立的东西，与温蒂目前的其他东西没有结合。

和复活祭坛，另一种形式的活施护身符。沃托克斯拥有复活技能是合理的，因为他的良好倾向是为了团队支持，他的复活技能有一个传送的特点，这是相对于沃托克斯的主要特点。但是温迪的祭坛呢？这里既奇怪又无聊。

在当前的sisturn III修补后，太多人开始关注它，因为他们认为它是OP，然后他们让其他玩家反对它。那现在就没人关心温蒂有多无聊的技能树了。

即使所有的平衡问题都解决了，温迪现在的技能树也只是另一个沃尔夫冈树。Koomin已经意识到了这个问题，但是他们认为这个问题可以通过金额平衡调整来解决。但我对此有更多的难过态度和担忧。

我打心里高兴有人直接表达出这种感想 我无数次从自己的文字中删除消极的表述 但这种失望确实是我每次看这个技能树的感受 温蒂是一个闪闪发亮的角色 我想让她再次伟大

I am genuinely happy that someone has directly expressed this feeling. I have removed negative expressions from my own words countless times, but this disappointment is indeed what I feel every time I look at this skill tree. Wendy is a shining character, and I want her to be great again

[Echsrick]

19 minutes ago, congrongfuguo said:

Wendy is a shining character, and I want her to be great again

what exactly do you mean with that? in wich way do you feel she got worse then before?

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

.... I already find the pipspooks less annoying than Winonas minigame. I think I did the pipspook quest maybe 3 or 4 times in my nearly 40 day playthrough, and had tons of elixirs.

...

This is another example of what I mean that it is currently overtuned and needs fixing, but could also do with some of the suggestions that people brought up as well. 

The current pipspook quests basically shower you in elixirs, which really confuses me what is meant by the threads saying that it is too cumbersome to get. 

Mourning glory production was improved by:

-Wendy can put graves wherever she wants, so you can do the quests easily

-the quests are much faster to complete

-the quests give ~triple the rewards

Overall mourning glory production is so incredibly easier than before the skill tree.  If I had to put a number to it it would be like 5-10x better.  Saying that the quests are boring is one thing, but I'm confused by a lot of the threads saying that it's horrible to do them so frequently and over and over, since you don't really need to anymore.  It would be nice if the quests were more interesting though.

I'm also slightly on the fence about the requests for skills that just automatically produce mourning glories.  The quests are a pretty unique part of Wendy's character, and I'd much rather that they are more interesting than just removing that part of her gameplay to watch some get automatically produced.  If I choose to play as Wendy I want to actually play as her and engage with her gameplay features.

[congrongfuguo]

14 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

你到底是什么意思？你觉得她从哪方面变得比以前更糟了？

Although I really want to answer your question But it will become a very long content, and my English is not very good. I think this is also the reason why you gave up communication before. I am browsing through the content of a post and I think you can find some answers there

 

[congrongfuguo]

1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

你到底是什么意思？你觉得她从哪方面变得比以前更糟了？

If you really want to know, you can try this article. It provides a very comprehensive and accurate description of the problem with the skill tree

[Debruh]

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

This is another example of what I mean that it is currently overtuned and needs fixing, but could also do with some of the suggestions that people brought up as well. 

The current pipspook quests basically shower you in elixirs, which really confuses me what is meant by the threads saying that it is too cumbersome to get. 

Mourning glory production was improved by:

-Wendy can put graves wherever she wants, so you can do the quests easily

-the quests are much faster to complete

-the quests give ~triple the rewards

Overall mourning glory production is so incredibly easier than before the skill tree.  If I had to put a number to it it would be like 5-10x better.  Saying that the quests are boring is one thing, but I'm confused by a lot of the threads saying that it's horrible to do them so frequently and over and over, since you don't really need to anymore.  It would be nice if the quests were more interesting though.

I'm also slightly on the fence about the requests for skills that just automatically produce mourning glories.  The quests are a pretty unique part of Wendy's character, and I'd much rather that they are more interesting than just removing that part of her gameplay to watch some get automatically produced.  If I choose to play as Wendy I want to actually play as her and engage with her gameplay features.

I'm also kinda confused on the 'detached from gameplay' argument. Because, like aren't graves usually in forests? Where you usually gather other materials such as silk and spider glands from spiders, get the terrarium, locate the junkyard, moonstone, get panflute ingredients, and more? With the graveyard being in the mosiac. Do like, two quests in the early game while gathering materials and You're pretty set.

You can also move them..

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, Debruh said:

I'm also kinda confused on the 'detached from gameplay' argument. Because, like aren't graves usually in forests? Where you usually gather other materials such as silk and spider glands from spiders, get the terrarium, locate the junkyard, moonstone, get panflute ingredients, and more? With the graveyard being in the mosiac. Do like, two quests in the early game while gathering materials and You're pretty set.

You can also move them..

A lot of people just hate the pipspook quest. To the point where the quests giving way more doesn't matter. They absolutely hate the quest, because its not part of regular combat/gathering.

It's not a "buff it more" issue for them. They want some passive gain of mourning glory, instead. If not a total redesign of pipspooks as base kit.

I hated the pipspook quest, but not to that extent. I don't mind it now. I like the pipspook line (its overtuned but I still like it haha).

I wouldn't mind a weaker passive method. I'd probably go out of my way to grab it. I like the idea of graves 3 doing this, even if it meant a pipspook 3 nerf so they didn't mean even more power creep if you grabbed both.

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

They absolutely hate the quest, because its not part of regular combat/gathering.

wendy idlers don't seek combat though

[yuntunhemudu]

Wendy's damage exceeds? My suggestion is to avoid using the console to directly obtain Ghostly Elixir, especially Cursed Vexation, during testing on the test server.

[Dingle]

5 hours ago, yuntunhemudu said:

Wendy's damage exceeds? My suggestion is to avoid using the console to directly obtain Ghostly Elixir, especially Cursed Vexation, during testing on the test server.

You can get Vexation pretty fast, before rifts. I did bee queen, AG, shadow pieces nightmare werepig, Fuelweaver in my second playthrough. In that order. No console commands, real playthrough.

For me, nmwp gave 4 pure horror. Thats enough for 4 Vexation elixirs. They're really cheap. Once you get rifts open, you could use them for every single fight.

In future playthroughs, I'd fight nightmare werepig way earlier.

[Debruh]

51 minutes ago, Dingle said:

, nmwp gave 4 pure horror. Thats enough for 4 Vexation elixirs.

With Elixir |||| I have gotten like 7 once. And you can always duplicate using green gems

[renamoe]

On 1/8/2025 at 11:21 PM, Steorra said:

Tbh this is a problem which should be taken seriously. Just imagine that, after several adjustments of amounts, all skills like Abi's survival, team spirit, Cursed Vex, Affinity Abi, and some aesthetic issues got fix, then what we have? That skill tree might be balance but would still be boring tbh.

Even all balance problems got fixed the current skill tree of Wendy would just be another Wolfgang tree. Koomin has awared some problems of this but they was thought that the problem could be fix by amounts balancing adjustment. But I have more sad attitude and worries about this.

Don't be too discouraged—I believe Klei is working on it. They mentioned they'd be back to full capacity in the second week of January, so I'm hopeful we'll see an update soon. I'm genuinely curious about what they've been working on behind the scenes, and hopefully, it addresses some of the deeper issues you've raised.

It's also worth noting that Klei has been more communicative, even postponing the release and sharing two detailed insights from the developer's perspective, which gives me confidence that they're actively listening to feedback.

Let's see what the next update brings—fingers crossed for meaningful improvements to Wendy's skill tree and overall gameplay.

[Dingle]

I started a Wendy rifts open playthrough. Not winter yet, just about to go after lunar varg.

Avoiding using anything but pigskin helmets and a hambat so far. Quick notes:

1. Shadow abby with murder up easily soloes the ink blight trio. Didn't bother with vex, as I didn't attack much. For whatever reason, she just takes very little damage from tanking all 3. Murder up lets her kill them surprisingly fast. She killed them before I could mine the dreadstone, again.

2. She's not bad on deadly brightshades anymore. You can make more mistakes, and escape and attack here lets you reposition. Murder buff up makes her do decent damage to both vines and the plants themselvrs. The vines also have difficulty targetting her, so she can aoe multiple at once.

3. Abby can't seem to attack fused shadelings! I thought that was really bad for a moment, but then immediately after I stumbled onto the shadow mask spiders and rabbits. They drop pure horror, too!

That's it for now, I'll make a new topic for my playthrough when I can and post it here.

Oh, bonus thought: I actually kind of like the butterfly resurrect thing now lol