Wendy feedback - skill tree is overtuned

[Dingle]

In my thread above, I have a summary of thoughts on the very last page, too.

Probably the worst thing is her tree getting too combined and condensed. It's easy to grab whatever is strongest, and you get a lot per insight point. There's no locks except the affinities.

I can see how it became this way. Originally her perks were designed as weak, so they didnt bother with locks. When many of her perks were made much stronger, this didn't change.

Could go into more detail and thoughts but I'm not sure what I'm allowed to discuss at this point.

18 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

Dingle's post largely avoided the world after the cracks, which is unsatisfactory. Wendy was already able to handle the world before the rift well without the skill tree, and understanding Wendy's skill tree solely based on this part is very one-sided. This should not be used as a reason for "having to weaken it to a large extent".

I cover why I didn't. What would you have liked me to cover?

Abby stomped inkblight trio for me.

Other people already showed that she does well on lunar bosses.

Was there something else?

[Dingle]

Oh, I should specify why I didn't do a rift playthrough, so people seeing this don't have to dig through my big playthrough thread for Wendy.

I was going to originally do a rifts open third playthrough, but then I saw info from I think Lardee, Pig Princess, and Debruh in different threads. Info and videos that showed that Wendy does great on the lunar variants of Varg, Deerclops, and even Armored Bearger. With or without player tag.

The missing part of that was how well Wendy and Abby do on the shadow rift content.

So I went for the ink blight trio as the last boss of my second playthrough. Abigail just absolutely destroyed them. I was actually surprised how easy the fight was, and how much I could use Abigail to tank them with a Revenant.

That let me know pretty much exactly how I'd do a rifts open playthrough. I'd do a ruins rush, then get a single pure horror for a vex elixir l and a revenant restorative, and then kill inkblight trio. From there I'd make a scythe and hood, maybe a boomerang if I wanted to make brightshade husks easy. Kill varg. Then I guess wait for Deerclops to spawn?

It didn't seem interesting for me to try out anymore, so I didn't continue. That and I thought brigading would start again soon, so anything I posted Wendy-related would get buried.

[Steorra]

57 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Probably the worst thing is her tree getting too combined and condensed. It's easy to grab whatever is strongest, and you get a lot per insight point. There's no locks except the affinities.

I guess I could understand the main point of your opinions here. the current skill tree provided few potential builds, which may lead a boring gameplay because of lack of variety, I guess. The opposite is Wortox tree, it encourages player to choose what they urgently need and provide various builds by this design, but Wendy's not. This is a reason why I hope Klei could to make normal form of Abi become the 3rd viable options for players by the skill tree.

26 minutes ago, Dingle said:

, and even Armored Bearger.

Tbh it is still need improvement or adjustment if considering beefalo Wendy has a similar DPS with Wes when fighting armor bearger

And the current 3 bosses of lunar rift is not all things of post-rift, the brightshades is another thing, and more would comes in future. I don't think current Wendy tree is fair enough for post rift before Curded Vex and Lunar Abi get their fixings.

[Echsrick]

18 minutes ago, Steorra said:

The opposite is Wortox tree, it encourages player to choose what they urgently need and provide various builds by this design

exchept wortox is VERY LIMITED in what he can actualy get and whats actualy good and not just filler

[Steorra]

21 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

exchept wortox is VERY LIMITED in what he can actualy get and whats actualy good and not just filler

We already have a poll which shows that Wortox tree is one of the most welcomed tree for current DST. I was agree that their tree still have spare for improvement, but I don't think to argue about their tree in this thread is reasonable.

If you have some ideas about why Wortox tree need further improvement and where it needs, you'd better start a new thread and see how many people would agree with you or how many of them have different ideas need to discuss with you. To repeatedly saying that "Wortox's tree is not enough!" by an off topic way in other threads brings less helps to your aims, especially when your opinion is debatable somewhere. (Which means ppl would attend to simply ignore all your view for avoiding far more off topic discussing of the original thread)

[Dingle]

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I guess I could understand the main point of your opinions here. the current skill tree provided few potential builds, which may lead a boring gameplay because of lack of variety, I guess. The opposite is Wortox tree, it encourages player to choose what they urgently need and provide various builds by this design, but Wendy's not. This is a reason why I hope Klei could to make normal form of Abi become the 3rd viable options for players by the skill tree.

Wortox build variety has some problems in solo or late game, but otherwise yeah it has a good variety depending on what you want to do. I can see Wendy as just getting one "here's the best build" thing happening to her, like Wolfgang

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Tbh it is still need improvement or adjustment if considering beefalo Wendy has a similar DPS with Wes when fighting armor bearger

I thought that got disproven?

In your own thread claiming this.

Off top of head Wendy could kill armored bearger 50% faster than Wes. Wes kill time like 1:30, Wendy kill time like 0:59. I'll look this up when I can.

little misleading too as wilson kill time is also about 1:30.

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And the current 3 bosses of lunar rift is not all things of post-rift, the brightshades is another thing, and more would comes in future. I don't think current Wendy tree is fair enough for post rift before Curded Vex and Lunar Abi get their fixings.

I'm curious on brightshades, though I don't think they'd be a huge problem with team spirit giving you more control...

I can't say on future rift stuff, as it doesn't exist yet.

[Steorra]

18 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I can see Wendy as just getting one "here's the best build" thing happening to her, like Wolfgang

I'm worrying about this as well. It would makes Wendy become boring than other post tree characters...

18 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Off top of head Wendy could kill armored bearger 50% faster than Wes. Wes kill time like 1:30, Wendy kill time like 0:59. I'll look this up when I can.

Beefalo Wendy:

https://b23.tv/45UeteH

Wes:

https://b23.tv/kU4smDG

I was killed armored beager by beefalo shadow affinity wendy in 1'30" and others used Wes did same thing. It shows that beefalo Wendy is suffering higher risk than non-beefalo characters but lower rewards for post-rift boss fightings.

Though the long animation of team spirit might be another factor but it was lesser impactful than Cursed Vex issue. (or shadow saddle, but my original intention is focusing on Cursed Vex)

18 minutes ago, Dingle said:

little misleading too as wilson kill time is also about 1:30.

I guess Wilson could reach 1'00, not sure but he must be better than Wes.

18 minutes ago, Dingle said:

though I don't think they'd be a huge problem with team spirit giving you more control...

They are not bosses which means they should be more convenient to managa for post-skilltree characters, teams spirit might work but it is not enough. After the overturned for Lunar Abi those brightshades become annoying again for Wendy like when she have no skill tree.

18 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I can't say on future rift stuff, as it doesn't exist yet.

One thing we could clarify that is Klei was mentioned that the skill tree is aiming for improving character performance for potential future rift update I guess...

[Dingle]

Found it.

 

It was 1:30 for Wes, 1:03 for Wendy.

I think the Wendy wasn't using player tag.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Found it.

 1:03 for Wendy.

I remembered that is for non-beefalo Wendy with shadow scythe which have massive planar damage than it's generally damage. If use the scythe it wouldn't helps us to find the true problem which lying on Cursed Vex (or beefalo, that's another topic) imo.

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I'm worrying about this as well. It would makes Wendy become boring than other post tree characters...

Beefalo Wendy:

https://b23.tv/45UeteH

Wes:

https://b23.tv/kU4smDG

I was killed armored beager by beefalo shadow affinity wendy in 1'30" and others used Wes did same thing. It shows that beefalo Wendy is suffering higher risk than non-beefalo characters but lower rewards for post-rift boss fightings.

I posted a Iot of thoughts on how post rift stuff not so subtly nerfs beefalo. Devs want you to use the reaper, sadly. I thought it was in your wes thread, but guess not.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I guess Wilson could reach 1'00, not sure but he must be better than Wes.

No, planar damage exists to kind of normalize everyone's damage a bit (some exceptions). So if they're both using Reapers, Wes doesn't hit much lower than Wilson.

I think I saw a perfect play Wilson video get 1:27 or so on Armored Bearger, though this is off top of head.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

They are not bosses which means they should be more convenient to managa for post-skilltree characters, teams spirit might work but it is not enough. After the overturned for Lunar Abi those brideshades become annoying again for Wendy like when she have no skill tree.

I'm curious on this and may check if I have time.

Though I assume the "meta" now is just kill them with gloomerangs, making things kind of moot.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

One thing we could clarify that was Klei was mentioned that the skill tree is aiming for improving character performance for potential future rift update I guess...

Yeah, I just can't base any arguments on somethingn they may add 1 to 2 years from now haha.

[Echsrick]

30 minutes ago, Steorra said:

you'd better start a new thread and see how many people would agree with you

i allready dit so in the past, in fact i was one of the first if not the first to have brought up that knapsack is bad, and of course i mentioned plenty of other things
 

31 minutes ago, Steorra said:

but I don't think to argue about their tree in this thread is reasonable

your the one that brought up wortox skill tree in the first place


 

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Devs want you to use the reaper,

If we assumed something like this, then it's the turn of Shadow Saddle... It's strange to publish an items which is only achievable in endgame but perform bad for post-rift fightings. (Yes even it is bad for non bosses fightings which from postrift) 

9 minutes ago, Dingle said:

No, planar damage exists to kind of normalize everyone's damage a bit (some exceptions). So if they're both using Reapers, Wes doesn't hit much lower than Wilson.

I think I saw a perfect play Wilson video get 1:27 or so on Armored Bearger, though this is off top of head.

I agree with this but still failed to find a video of scythe Wilson VS. armored beager but just let it be.

10 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Though I assume the "meta" now is just kill them with gloomerangs

Yes this would be a meta way for those who open two rifts at the same time (or open the shadow rift first), but a range weapon shouldn't be a factor for generally balance topic (which mainly focusing on melee fighting) imo.

8 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

your the one that brought up wortox skill tree in the first place

Bring up other characters tree for comparison with the main topic is not off topic. Bring up other characters tree for focusing on how those others tree is bad and where need to improve is off topic. We are different. I hope you could know these differences.

[Koomin]

11 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Found it.

 

It was 1:30 for Wes, 1:03 for Wendy.

I think the Wendy wasn't using player tag.

Yes I think the conclusion from that thread was that Wendy skill tree is actually very effective versus Gestalt Bearger and she can kill him really fast.  1 minute kill given how planar damage normalizes damage is quite quick, and is pretty good evidence of the post rift strength.  The whole kill time thing isn't wildly crucial anyway, but the main point is just that it shows that her overturned qualities persist in that fight.

Even if that wasn't the case, she really demonstrates the overturned qualities even more at the other post-rift bosses like the varg which seems to not be pointed out much since it is counter to the narrative Gestalt Bearger is brought up to support.  On top of that, Bearger is most often a tree casualty either way, so even if it was a weakness it wouldn't do much.

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

If we assumed something like this, then it's the turn of Shadow Saddle... It's strange to publish an items which is only achievable in endgame but perform bad for post-rift fightings. (Yes even it is bad for non bosses fightings which from postrift) 

I think the shadow saddle and gloombell were little concessions, but beefalo are not intended to not be competitive damage wise to the reaper or brightshade sword. I think the devs really don't like how strong beefalo are, and post rift is how they balance them.

It's no mistake that lots of the new content, especially post rift, knocks you off your saddle. And it's no mistake that there's no anti-knock saddle.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Koomin said:

is actually very effective versus Gestalt Bearger and she can kill him really fast.  1 minute kill given how planar damage normalizes damage is quite quick

Tbh I personally think the comparison is still lack of other post tree characters. Wendy is obviously should be stronger than Wes if we don't considering the balance issue lying on scythe and beefalo. Though I might reconsider how effectively the planar DPS the Shadow Abi has. (Still doubt about it since beefalo Wendy do no influence to Shadow Abi, which makes me insist that Cursed Vex need similar adjustment like what Shadow Abi got from the planar damage adjustment)

8 minutes ago, Koomin said:

like the varg

I was always thought that both varg and lunar varg were mini-bosses like spider queen and treeguards...

9 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Bearger is most often a tree casualty either way, so even if it was a weakness it wouldn't do much

I agree with this, however the original opinion to bring up armored bearger into the post-rift discussion was aiming to find an example for future rift updates I guess

5 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I think the shadow saddle and gloombell were little concessions, but beefalo are not intended to not be competitive damage wise to the reaper or brightshade sword. I think the devs really don't like how strong beefalo are, and post rift is how they balance them.

It's no mistake that lots of the new content, especially post rift, knocks you off your saddle. And it's no mistake that there's no anti-knock saddle.

This might be debatable but I'm glad to discuss this in other threads or in future after the current beta go lives. It's half relative with Cursed Vex but half relative with off topic things.

[DaDa_waw]

2 hours ago, Koomin said:

This is the very end of the beta.  There is no option to postpone this discussion.  This is the last opportunity.

It sounds like 'At the last minute, I also have to adjust the numerical issue first, not the functional design issue'“
In the end, if the core issue still needs to change the functionality, then the values will have to be readjusted. Why is the numerical part more urgent?

[Koomin]

12 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

It sounds like 'At the last minute, I also have to adjust the numerical issue first, not the functional design issue'“
In the end, if the core issue still needs to change the functionality, then the values will have to be readjusted. Why is the numerical part more urgent?

To be honest I think they have fixed most of the core issues and have put in a large amount of effort there, and based upon feedback polls and stuff that seems pretty well agreed upon.  There are definitely still things to improve in that regard as you pointed out with that link, but they are much more minimal than at the start of the beta. 

At this point at least for me the issue of the overtuned skill tree is much more impactful towards my final happiness with her skill tree than the other things you are referring to. 

If the skill tree is updated to significantly reduce the power level and otherwise remained the same I would accept it.

If the skill functionality continues to be messed with and the power level grows or stays the same, I would be really disappointed with the final product.

Obviously I would prefer both, but at this point the skill tree being overtuned is much more important of an issue for me, and given we are at the end of the beta this is the last time to fix it.

[DaDa_waw]

3 hours ago, Dingle said:

In my thread above, I have a summary of thoughts on the very last page, too.

Probably the worst thing is her tree getting too combined and condensed. It's easy to grab whatever is strongest, and you get a lot per insight point. There's no locks except the affinities.

I can see how it became this way. Originally her perks were designed as weak, so they didnt bother with locks. When many of her perks were made much stronger, this didn't change.

Could go into more detail and thoughts but I'm not sure what I'm allowed to discuss at this point.

The core issue still lies in the fact that many functions are poorly designed, not just because of numerical values, but also because of functionality.
What if we break down many skills into more points? Cannot change anything.
Because apart from team spirit and flower garlands, there is almost no playability left. I reluctantly added a tombstone, but even these two have a lot of problems to solve, and many designs are quite boring from the beginning.

3 hours ago, Dingle said:

Abby stomped inkblight trio for me.

Other people already showed that she does well on lunar bosses.

Was there something else?

The performance of other moon bosses is only mediocre, and when there is no player tag, Abigail's fault tolerance will be astonishingly low, and the difficulty required to achieve the same content will be much higher than using Wilson. Not to mention that there is almost no improvement when facing three Deadly Brightshades that are very close to each other in daily life, and the current three moon bosses are only at the same level as the previous four season bosses.

40 minutes ago, Koomin said:

To be honest I think they have fixed most of the core issues and have put in a large amount of effort there, and based upon feedback polls and stuff that seems pretty well agreed upon.  There are definitely still things to improve in that regard as you pointed out with that link, but they are much more minimal than at the start of the beta. 

At this point at least for me the issue of the overtuned skill tree is much more impactful towards my final happiness with her skill tree than the other things you are referring to. 

If the skill tree is updated to significantly reduce the power level and otherwise remained the same I would accept it.

If the skill functionality continues to be messed with and the power level grows or stays the same, I would be really disappointed with the final product.

Obviously I would prefer both, but at this point the skill tree being overtuned is much more important of an issue for me, and given we are at the end of the beta this is the last time to fix it.

I'm afraid we have a disagreement on the concept of 'most core issues'.
I believe you have also read the integration post I sent you before, which surprisingly provided many constructive suggestions for each branch. The most surprising thing is that these suggestions still have strong practicality to this day.
If you asked me to find a skill tree that only requires adjusting numerical values in the true sense, then I would choose Wotuox. Wotuox's skill tree is not like Wendy's skill tree now, which allows people to pick out so many posts for reference, because his skill tree really achieves "adjusting the values is enough/solving all the core problems", and can even be said to be "a work that has already been completed beautifully".
In summary, I believe there are still too many things that can be adjusted, and as you said, there is not much time left for the testing server, and I am also very anxious about it.

[Koomin]

17 minutes ago, DaDa_waw said:

I'm afraid we have a disagreement on the concept of 'most core issues'.
....
In summary, I believe there are still too many things that can be adjusted, and as you said, there is not much time left for the testing server, and I am also very anxious about it.

As I said in the initial post, I know people have different opinions on this, and am just making sure to share my final thoughts here and make sure that this viewpoint is heard.  I'm OK to disagree here, and am happy you shared your opinion as well and hope it is taken into account too.

[ColdHeaven]

If they want to make wendy boring so be it, we can always use mod to make her more engaging to play. that's what i do for wolfgang anyways.

[Edible Coal]

1 hour ago, ColdHeaven said:

If they want to make wendy boring so be it, we can always use mod to make her more engaging to play. that's what i do for wolfgang anyways.

dont give up fighting 

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, ColdHeaven said:

If they want to make wendy boring so be it, we can always use mod to make her more engaging to play. that's what i do for wolfgang anyways.

23 minutes ago, Edible Coal said:

dont give up fighting 

If you call a discussion to improve the game "Fighting," then both of you should quit off. Do for the game, not your ego.

 

 

[Edible Coal]

24 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

If you call a discussion to improve the game "Fighting," then both of you should quit off. Do for the game, not your ego.

 

 

is just metaphorically 

[Dingle]

8 hours ago, DaDa_waw said:

The core issue still lies in the fact that many functions are poorly designed, not just because of numerical values, but also because of functionality.
What if we break down many skills into more points? Cannot change anything.
Because apart from team spirit and flower garlands, there is almost no playability left. I reluctantly added a tombstone, but even these two have a lot of problems to solve, and many designs are quite boring from the beginning.

I disagree.

8 hours ago, DaDa_waw said:

The performance of other moon bosses is only mediocre, and when there is no player tag, Abigail's fault tolerance will be astonishingly low, and the difficulty required to achieve the same content will be much higher than using Wilson. Not to mention that there is almost no improvement when facing three Deadly Brightshades that are very close to each other in daily life, and the current three moon bosses are only at the same level as the previous four season bosses..

I may check out the deadly brightshades in a rifts open world, after all, if I have time. I haven't seen anyone do so.

As for the moon bosses, see my discussion with Steorra in this thread on Armored Bearger. She just outright obliterates Lunar Varg, as shadow abby with Murder stuns Varg as soon as he tries his flame breath. Crystal Deerclops also is not a problem, its attacks are pretty directional. I could look for a video of that one.

That just leaves the deadly brightshades, really.

[SilverSpoon]

17 hours ago, Koomin said:

I don't understand what "you should eliminate bunch of curse you may have" means.  Maybe this was a translation issue, but I didn't curse at anything and am just providing feedback, and did my best to say that people that have other opinions are also valid.

 

19 hours ago, Koomin said:

the hoard of clamours for buffs at all costs accompanied by insults

19 hours ago, Koomin said:

The more I test it the more ridiculous it all seems.

19 hours ago, Koomin said:

if it is released in this state where I have to either refuse to use my insight and ignore the fun new options or wander around demolishing everything without effort

19 hours ago, Koomin said:

I'll be tailed in every public game with piles of Wendys continuing to trivialize the game and destroying the fun character diversity.