The "player tag" is ineffective / less effective against some bosses

[Yifei_]

Update: Using Blessed Sisturn III against the Celestial Champion may be a negative improvement. It only provides 25% defensive boost, but halves the health recovery efficiency.

In the case of Celestial Champion the damage reduction for players is 75%, which means that Abigail only has an additional 25% armor.

 I didn't participate in the boss fight in the video simply because I was just testing damage, not because I wanted Abi to defeat CC alone.

 

As for the Ancient Guardian , its damage is 100 to both players and non-players, so the "player tag" also offers no enhancement to survivability. The same applies to Shadow Pieces.

However, with bosses like Treeguard, which deal 33% damage to players, Abigail has an additional 67% armor, and even when facing multiple Treeguards, she still has a significantly high survivability.
 

[Steorra]

No need to say this player tag do nothing with rooks oh my, where's these shadows from?

[Yifei_]

There are somthing wrong with these two videos, I'll check again

9 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

There are somthing wrong with these two videos, I'll check again

No, the video is not incorrect. The damage dealt by Celestial Champion in Phase I & II is consistent whether against players or regular creatures, I misspoke earlier. The "player tag" is of no assistance at all in these two stages of combat.

18 minutes ago, Steorra said:

No need to say this player tag do nothing with rooks oh my, where's these shadows from?

Indeed, I have also tested the damage Rook can inflict on Abigail, and even with the "player tag," it is still possible to sustain high damage, up to 200 points.
 

[hyoton123]

Oh, NOW the mob damage exemption isn’t enough! Weird. I heard endless praise from players about the new bosses this would enable themselves to rock.

 

I don’t think the mob damage exemption is a good idea because the feedback to players is inconsistent, *and* when it’s good it’s too good, and when it’s bad it’s really bad. These are not mutually exclusive; it shouldnt let someone infinitely hold bosses, and it shouldnt do nothing but you find out too late.

[Yifei_]

21 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Oh, NOW the mob damage exemption isn’t enough! Weird. I heard endless praise from players about the new bosses this would enable themselves to rock.

 

I don’t think the mob damage exemption is a good idea because the feedback to players is inconsistent, *and* when it’s good it’s too good, and when it’s bad it’s really bad. These are not mutually exclusive; it shouldnt let someone infinitely hold bosses, and it shouldnt do nothing but you find out too late.

What are you talking about? I didn't understand. Are you saying that the "player tag" is overpowered in some situations and useless in others?

 

Edit: Oh, I get it now, you're mocking me. You're quite the interesting person.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Oh, NOW the mob damage exemption isn’t enough! Weird. I heard endless praise from players about the new bosses this would enable themselves to rock.

 

I don’t think the mob damage exemption is a good idea because the feedback to players is inconsistent, *and* when it’s good it’s too good, and when it’s bad it’s really bad. These are not mutually exclusive; it shouldnt let someone infinitely hold bosses, and it shouldnt do nothing but you find out too late.

oh great, again.

[hyoton123]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

What are you talking about? I didn't understand. Are you saying that the "player tag" is overpowered in some situations and useless in others?

Yes. It’s going to depend on whether the mob hits enough to break spectral cureall’s regeneration or not. Strong quick (multihit) burst damage is a problem, slow hits with high bonus damage vs move are probably just going to be regenerated from. This is very simple math FWIW (just check how much abigail will heal vs damage done, and get your time to killl). IIRC crystal deerclops is barely going to scratch her, armored bearger obviously cant do much, CC is still going to wreck her. I don’t mind good matchups but I dont think “sometimes invincible but you wont know until you try it out” is good design either.

 

EDIT: also it’s nuts vs bee queen IIRC. The fact that we would have to go through each boss to think about whether this skill specifically would break the boss is a sign to me it’s not a good idea.

[layangan putus]

Abi player tag for survivability from Blessed Sisturn III (with Spectral Cure-All like in the video) by itself won't do much against continuous strong attacks from giants within short interval. Maybe new players who manage to encounter this type of attack could mix Abi tag with Vigor Mortis elixir and speed from Beefalo to avoid the dangerous attack in the first place but they also could mix it with "Unsummon" command if they choose not to take Team Spirit skills but again they need to have enough knowledge for the boss mechanics as that is the most important part. I think Abi player tag does its job to give the players enough time to react against dangerous attacks in order to figure something out - Definitely better than current Abi which has little to no time to react against this type of attack if one is totally clueless.

[thesooz9000]

New players aren't going to "find" Celestial Champion, Crystal Deerclops, Armored Bearger.

[Siren11]

I’ve been saying this since I realized it. Maybe it’ll help some players with the seasonal bosses (minus Antlion, who can’t even hit Abigail anyways), but besides that it seems pretty pointless. All the bosses necessary for progression do the same damage to players and mobs. In the Bee Queen fight, Abigail takes most of her damage from the Grumbles, so the skill still isn’t useful. It could be helpful for Dragonfly, but that’s only if you mess up the timing with managing Abigail and using the pan flute. Klaus is a bad match up because of Abigail’s AoE, so she doesn’t really need more survivability in that fight anyways. Treeguards are… treeguards. The EoT and the Twins dash so fast that it’s probably not super useful (but I will take anything that gives me a little more time to get the positioning right in those fights).

I guess it could be useful for Malbatross (and presumably the rift bosses, but I haven’t fought them). And her being able to just straight-up out heal bosses is still a problem.

[hyoton123]

3 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

New players aren't going to "find" Celestial Champion, Crystal Deerclops, Armored Bearger.

I mean anyone doing them or the original forms for the first time since it’s a similar problem, but yeah point taken. What I’m saying is that this skill is harder to tell what you get than if it said “abigail gets X physical damage reduction.” It goes for treants, rooks, spiderqueens etc. 

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

Indeed, I have also tested the damage Rook can inflict on Abigail, and even with the "player tag," it is still possible to sustain high damage, up to 200 points.

This is working as intended the player tag only activates against bosses and rooks are not boss monsters.

[HowlVoid]

Youre looking at it as the cup is half empty.

In both cases the non-player defence is innate. Meaning she doesn't need the extra defence in the first place.

Your videos are indicative that you had plenty of time to unsummon Abigail. 

Ancient guardian has very low dps with his simple attack pattern. Not to mention his stun mechanic, getting extra help in that fight is completely unnecessary. 

The fact Abigail can survive CC's blender for so long is enough said for Celestial Champion. Vigor Mortis has always done the job for helping abi survive the attacks.

[Yifei_]

39 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Youre looking at it as the cup is half empty.

In both cases the non-player defence is innate. Meaning she doesn't need the extra defence in the first place.

Your videos are indicative that you had plenty of time to unsummon Abigail. 

Ancient guardian has very low dps with his simple attack pattern. Not to mention his stun mechanic, getting extra help in that fight is completely unnecessary. 

The fact Abigail can survive CC's blender for so long is enough said for Celestial Champion. Vigor Mortis has always done the job for helping abi survive the attacks.

Edited 36 minutes ago by HowlVoid

I agree, but I don't see any connection between what you said and my post. What do you want to express? Do you want to prove that "player tag" is effective?

1 hour ago, thesooz9000 said:

New players aren't going to "find" Celestial Champion, Crystal Deerclops, Armored Bearger.

In this post, I never mentioned a new player. I don't know what you're trying to express.
 

[layangan putus]

1 hour ago, thesooz9000 said:

New players aren't going to "find" Celestial Champion, Crystal Deerclops, Armored Bearger.

Yes, not within tens of hours of gameplay but there will be first time encountering the boss and that is enough to be considered "new". I mean I brought my new friend to fight AFW in public server so he got panic and died as Wortox so he barely survived for 10 days and already fought late boss?

[Sunshine.]

39 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

I agree, but I don't see any connection between what you said and my post. What do you want to express? Do you want to prove that "player tag" is effective?

The player tag helps where Abigail might struggle but shouldn't. These bosses that don't use the player tag are more challenging for all characters, but also designed to be fair and manageable. Thus, Abigail isn't unfairly being destroyed by them. 

 

42 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

In this post, I never mentioned a new player. I don't know what you're trying to express.

These bosses are out of the way of a new player and with more experience, one should be able to deal with them even without having Abigail for the whole fight.

If your idea is to have a follower who can deal with the fight without your input, perhaps Wurt and to some extend Willow are a better fit. Abigail can survive bosses a lot better now but having Abigail be strong enough to just solo them couldn't possibly be intended by the game.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Sunshine. said:

The player tag helps where Abigail might struggle but shouldn't. These bosses that don't use the player tag are more challenging for all characters, but also designed to be fair and manageable. Thus, Abigail isn't unfairly being destroyed by them.

I didn't say Abigail was destroyed by any boss. The main purpose of my post is to deny the notion that the "player tag" equates to a 50% damage reduction on bosses. How to defeat those bosses and whether they are challenging or not is not related to my post.

5 minutes ago, Sunshine. said:

These bosses are out of the way of a new player and with more experience, one should be able to deal with them even without having Abigail for the whole fight.

If your idea is to have a follower who can deal with the fight without your input, perhaps Wurt and to some extend Willow are a better fit. Abigail can survive bosses a lot better now but having Abigail be strong enough to just solo them couldn't possibly be intended by the game.

To be honest, I have no idea what this post has to do with beginners or why it's being related to other characters. I've reviewed my wording again and am confident that I was merely pointing out the potential issues with the "player tag." I didn't participate in the boss fight in the video simply because I was just testing damage, not because I wanted Abi to defeat CC alone. I am well aware of how those bosses should be defeated in coordination with Wendy and Abi.

[Well-met]

probably because "player tag" is a misconception and klei's change was a singled-out, custom-made exception.

there is no "player tag".

[DegenerateFurry]

Yeah, Ancient Guardian can still destroy Abigail if you let it hit her more than a few times. The "attack here" dash skill from Team Spirit is far more useful for keeping her alive in that fight. I think that just shows how Blessed Sisturn III is balanced, though, since it's not a fix for every fight even if you are going to be spamming Cure-Alls to heal her. 

[Yifei_]

Using Blessed Sisturn III against the Celestial Champion is a negative improvement. It not only provides no defensive boost, but also halves the health recovery efficiency.
Yeah, Perhaps I'll take the advice and "turn off" Blessed Sisturn III.

[Steorra]

"you could removing the lunar blossom before you fight a boss who dealt no different damage to player or mobs"

Haha, another inconvenient anti-QoL logic for Wendy's tree.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

So, Abi still doesn't have a good survival guarantee.

[HowlVoid]

There's a very good chance that they'll tune cc damage to be halved on Abigail. 

Seems like a pretty easy fix.

[Catapult 2.0]

Now we get half the recovery that works on all creatures, but we only get half the damage reduction for some bosses, which is really "too strong"
Not only that, but this also greatly increases the cost of learning Wendy as a novice character, if you don't open the "showme" mod, how do novices know which boss doesn't have a "player halving tag" which one has? That's a stupid design!

现在我们获得了对所有生物都有效的减半回复量，却只能获得对部分boss的减半伤害减免，真的是”too strong”
不仅如此，这还大大增加了温蒂作为一个新手角色的学习成本，如果不开“showme”模组，新手怎么知道哪个boss没有“玩家减半标签”哪个有呢？这可真是个愚蠢的设计！

[cyjs]

Wendy's skill tree is always full of surprises