How to Fix Blessed Sisturn III

[DVGMedia]

20 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Not vex duration. Vex damage multiplier. And it's to give the player a low risk, low reward option, medium risk, medium reward option and high risk, high reward option.

I'd be fine if lunar petal Aby got extra health and dark petal Aby got extra damage, but I'm not sure that would satisfy these guys.

But That is stuff that should not be tied to the sisturn. That should be stuff tied to the affinities...

The way that should  work is affinites give the lunar or shadow petals abilities to work in the sisturn to provide new effects.
But not based on the sisturn itself.

We should just let the sisturn be simple

[CremeLover]

  

Sorry, I don't think this is a good idea.

Specially the first point.

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

If Wendy decorates the sisturn with lunar flowers, Abigail gains the player tag. However, Wendy also loses her 1.4x vex bonus.

Thing is, skills are supposed to be understood by players picking up the game, and seeing the description of the skill.

We know that Wendy's damage with Abigail equals to 3 multipliers, 0.75*1.1*1.4, but ingame, all information you get with Wendy is "doens't hit very hard" and "is haunted by her twin sister". When they join the game, and see that Abigail can take care of combat and is very strong, they like it, and they like the character.
If however, they need to make an informed desicion to give up one of these 3 multipliers that are not communicated in game to gain survivability, you would need to indicate it in a way that new players quickly understand what it does. And I don't think that can be done the way the game is setup and not overloading the player with information. The skill should do what it does in a simple and clear way, and hopefully not have many different effects, as so the tree doesn't get too complex.

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

If Wendy decorates the Sisturn with dark petals, Wendy's vex buff increases from 1.4 to 1.75 (25% increase). However Abigail takes 25% more damage from all sources.

 

Not sure I have seen any sides advicating for more damage for Abigail in general, it has been mostly QoL and survivability from one side, and nerfs to survivability and damage from the other side. Plus the base damage of Gestalt Abigail in particular.

[Well-met]

29 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Do you want me to actually list all the downside of Beefalo?

go ahead

[Lardee]

Just now, CremeLover said:

  

Sorry, I don't think this is a good idea.

Specially the first point.

Thing is, skills are supposed to be understood by players picking up the game, and seeing the description of the skill.

We know that Wendy's damage with Abigail equals to 3 multipliers, 0.75*1.1*1.4, but ingame, all information you get with Wendy is "doens't hit very hard" and "is haunted by her twin sister". When they join the game, and see that Abigail can take care of combat and is very strong, they like it, and they like the character.
If however, they need to make an informed desicion to give up one of these 3 multipliers that are not communicated in game to gain survivability, you would need to indicate it in a way that new players quickly understand what it does. And I don't think that can be done the way the game is setup and not overloading the player with information. The skill should do what it does in a simple and clear way, and hopefully not have many different effects, as so the tree doesn't get too complex.

"reduces the power of Abigail's vex"

Just now, CremeLover said:

Not sure I have seen any sides advicating for more damage for Abigail in general, it has been mostly QoL and survivability from one side, and nerfs to survivability and damage from the other side. Plus the base damage of Gestalt Abigail in particular.

The problem was that the player tag would have become the dominant strategy for everyone providing no incentives for players to learn how to use Abigail. Providing incentives to forgo the player tag solves this issue.

[Grove]

2 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Not sure I have seen any sides advicating for more damage for Abigail in general, it has been mostly QoL and survivability from one side, and nerfs to survivability and damage from the other side. Plus the base damage of Gestalt Abigail in particular

Hm? Cause making shadow Abby more fragile seems to be a pretty popular suggestion among both sides.

And from what I saw, it seems more like on side wants survivability and nerfs to damage, and the other nerfs to survivability 

[SilverSpoon]

35 minutes ago, Lardee said:

But seriously, try fighting Armored Bearger or Scrappy Werepig on a Beefalo. One hit = your beefalo is as good as dead.

Especially then fighting bosses with knockback, I carry an Ice Staff in case the Beefalo gets out of control. In the worst case scenario, I can freeze the enemy, then use with Ice Staff on the Beefalo to regain aggro.

32 minutes ago, Lardee said:

If you're okay with Abigail sometimes dying in fights, then I apologize. I didn't mean to gaslight. I was making a general statement about what I understood what most people wanted which was Abigail to always be with Wendy.

If you really think so, you still could delete or revision to not hostile the part of "Those who want to keep the player tag want an Abigail that won't die in any fight regardless of player skill..."

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, Well-met said:

go ahead

First you have to answer the question: do you think every item in the game needs a downside?

4 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

If you really think so, you still could delete or revision to not hostile the part of "Those who want to keep the player tag want an Abigail that won't die in any fight regardless of player skill..."

Tell me what I should change it to.

[SilverSpoon]

4 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Tell me what I should change it to.

idk... "Those who want to keep the player tag want an Abigail be tough enough that she has enough room to heal or take escape before she die during boss battles."

About the Spectral Cure All spam tank, I don't mind if there is a tank that Spectral Cure All spam tank because of the existence of "Treeguard Feller III", but even some those who agree with the player tag think that there is no need it for balance, and I don't mind that if there not it.

[CremeLover]

8 minutes ago, Lardee said:

"reduces the power of Abigail's vex"

Eeeehhhh... it just reduces it for Wendy, so is not entirely accurate, but fine, I won't argue with you

10 minutes ago, Debruh said:

And from what I saw, it seems more like on side wants survivability and nerfs to damage, and the other nerfs to survivability 

Maybe I'm not paying enough attention then.

8 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

I have never made a suggestion that's related to buffing/nerfing damage, as I believe the numbers are fine enough. 

I have no experience with Gestalt Abigail, but I only hope that her survivability gets improved without having her capable of fighting alone.

For Shadow Abigail, I only made a suggestion that'd allow her to be active more often, even at a price of a bit more vulnerability. 

Hard to encapsulate everyone on the same side when everyone has a vastly different opinion. I do know you have been advicating for better and more responsive use of Team Spirit, specially for controllers, which... honestly I'm just instantly going to bind to different keyboard keys as soon as it comes out of beta regardless of the changes done to it.

I'll try not to generalize.

[RussoDaFederal]

For someone who's arguing day and night with die hard player tag defenders, I thought you'd agree with DVGMedia's suggestion. It's way more elegant and less confusing. The player tag was a convoluted solution for gestalt Abi being too good to begin with, why make this even more complicated? Let's take a step back and think of what's easier to implement and to understand. The skill descriptions are supposed to be short by the way. Let blessed sisturn 3 take Abi's health to 900 or 1200 but remove player tag in exchange.

[Yifei_]

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Let blessed sisturn 3 take Abi's health to 900 or 1200 but remove player tag in exchange.

”True health“ or ”Fake health“? This point is very important.

[Dingle]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

”True health“ or ”Fake health“? This point is very important.

The recent idea thrown around was true health, but no more player tag.

[Cassielu]

You guys are acting like two gangs who "own the price" are making a deal.

[RussoDaFederal]

9 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

”True health“ or ”Fake health“? This point is very important.

True health until she dies. Could be like the old "anchor Abi at the sisturn" method (which I personally find more interesting) or could be simply a level up like when her health goes from 150 to 300 to 600, just add another tier of 900 or 1200. Either way ghastly elixir should only bring her to the 600 threshold.

[Lardee]

14 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

For someone who's arguing day and night with die hard player tag defenders, I thought you'd agree with DVGMedia's suggestion. It's way more elegant and less confusing. The player tag was a convoluted solution for gestalt Abi being too good to begin with, why make this even more complicated? Let's take a step back and think of what's easier to implement and to understand. The skill descriptions are supposed to be short by the way. Let blessed sisturn 3 take Abi's health to 900 or 1200 but remove player tag in exchange.

I like DVG's suggestion. I think it is a more elegant, easier to understand etc.  The problem is that I don't think it's enough to satisfy the side who call for the player tag. If it is, then that's great, let's go with that.

Although I would like to add, as part of the Shadow side, the option to increase Abigail's damage vulnerability in exchange for more a higher vex boost. 

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

I like DVG's suggestion. I think it is a more elegant, easier to understand etc.  The problem is that I don't think it's enough to satisfy the side who call for the player tag. If it is, then that's great, let's go with that.

Although I would like to add, as part of the Shadow side, the option to increase Abigail's damage vulnerability in exchange for more a higher vex boost. 

I understand your point of view but I'm hopeful that Klei will look at this issue more objectively. After all this is as much of a compromise as it gets, 1200 health for a non planar skill is huge. I don't see any reason why someone would complain that Abi is still weak after that besides "make her stronger because I said so". In fact, someone pointed out that 1200 health would help Abi even more against hard hitting non boss mobs like rooks. I think it was Steorra but I don't remember. This is better for everyone involved, but unfortunately the forum's divided and some people will refuse to listen to reason simply because "you're playing on the opposite team"

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I understand your point of view but I'm hopeful that Klei will look at this issue more objectively. After all this is as much of a compromise as it gets, 1200 health for a non planar skill is huge. I don't see any reason why someone would complain that Abi is still weak after that besides "make her stronger because I said so". In fact, someone pointed out that 1200 health would help Abi even more against hard hitting non boss mobs like rooks. I think it was Steorra but I don't remember. This is better for everyone involved, but unfortunately the forum's divided and some people will refuse to listen to reason simply because "you're playing on the opposite team"

It was Steorra for the Rook.

The main fear is that the people calling for more Wendy buffs will simply never be satisfied. And she'll launch as some kind of living monument for how bad behavior gets rewarded.

It would make the forums during future character updates pretty interesting.

I do think having a way, with limits and costs, (no popping graven to hit level 4 right away) to raise her health would please the most people, with the least effort from the devs.

[AidanIsAFrog]

I don't really know if this is that balanced, but what if for blessed sisturn II instead of a player tag or vex increase, have it so putting dark petals gives 10 planar damage and putting lunar petals gives 10 planar defense, making the shadow side offensive and the lunar defensive. kinda like her affinites having lunar dodge and shadow do absurd damage.

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

The main fear is that the people calling for more Wendy buffs will simply never be satisfied. And she'll launch as some kind of living monument for how bad behavior gets rewarded.

This is my biggest fear regarding this update too. But I'm hopeful that Klei will make a good decision. The whole point is that it's clear that some people will never be satisfied. I hope Klei sees that and doesn't give in to their pressure. I'm not even saying that I alone hold the absolute truth or anything, but it's quite literally Klei's job to find out what's objectively more balanced and what fits best in their vision. They might do something that I'm not expecting, who knows. But I think it's very unlikely that they'll keep Abi's 50% defense. I hope I'm not wrong.

[Epireum]

Maybe they could lessen the ability effects by 25% or something, (example with made up numbers: if she originally takes 200 damage, and now takes 50 with player tag, bump it to 100 or something.) Then, add increased defense from general hostiles (not including bosses), by like 5-15% or something fair and low but still with felt impact. That way, player tag is less op against bosses but people who like Abi tanking get more benefit overall (like with hound waves, frog rain, worms, but not with pigs, bunnies etc.)

[Dingle]

10 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

This is my biggest fear regarding this update too. But I'm hopeful that Klei will make a good decision. The whole point is that it's clear that some people will never be satisfied. I hope Klei sees that and doesn't give in to their pressure. I'm not even saying that I alone hold the absolute truth or anything, but it's quite literally Klei's job to find out what's objectively more balanced and what fits best in their vision. They might do something that I'm not expecting, who knows. But I think it's very unlikely that they'll keep Abi's 50% defense. I hope I'm not wrong.

I'm not sure how it will turn out. But best case, I think she will be really overtuned.

[somethin]

4 hours ago, Dingle said:

I think she will be really overtuned.

Couldn't be more overtuned than current Maxwell tbh. He's just peak broken character. Now I wonder what his skill tree will be.

[Steorra]

To ask nerfing abi's survival but buffing cursed vex and shadow abi is just simply dishonest and selfish. The highreward of cursed vex is not your privilege, it is OP, need nerf.

Veteran like you need no survival enhancement of Abi. Nerfing them does no impact to you.

But veteran like you could easily achieve the most potential of cursed vex and shadow abi, especially with bafeelo.

So you are just trying to gatekeeping casuals away from your privileges kek.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

To ask nerfing abi's survival but buffing cursed vex and shadow abi is just simply dishonest and selfish. The highreward of cursed vex is not your privilege, it is OP, need nerf.

Okay. Explain why.

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Veteran like you need no survival enhancement of Abi. Nerfing them does no impact to you.

But veteran like you could easily achieve the most potential of cursed vex and shadow abi, especially with bafeelo.

So you are just trying to gatekeeping casuals away from your privileges kek.

So let me get this straight.

Survival enhancements will benefit beginners and will not impact veterans, so we should keep them.

Damage enhancements will benefit veterans and will not impact beginners, so we shouldn't keep them.

In other words, a blatant double standard.

[Steorra]

I was have no interest to nerf cursed vex before most of you insist to nerf survival of abi.

If it's a double standard, it's your karma. You deserve this.