As the only core feature of Wendy, why Abi should be the most weaker special follower of the whole DST?

[hyoton123]

1 minute ago, Shining Galaxy said:

1. Willow inherently possesses AOE and panic-inducing abilities, which she does not lose even upon the death of BERNIE! These are her intrinsic abilities.
2. BERNIE!'s planar entity is more important than damage reflect; even with a health cap of 2600, BERNIE! without a planar entity is still not tanky enough.

We’re talking about burning bernie. What AOE are you using with burning bernie active? Combustion? 

 

Bernie can’t be directed. Additionally but my understanding is that abigail’s current beta version gets generic planar defense? Thats much better than what bernie gets.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Have to say there are someone indeed love BERNIE! but hate those affinity fire spells... And the BERNIE! build is just for their gameplay. That's an option. Similarly with these arguments? There's a problem that is Wendy do need an option for casual gameplay in endgame.

Burning bernie is not a serious competitor for lunar flames. Everyone ridicules the abigail damage reflect potion as is, and that retains her AOE. If burning bernie was the only option for willow and the affinity spells were removed I think she would be pretty unmemorable.

[Lardee]

I'm fine with giving Abigail 4,800 HP (double Bernie's) plus the Player Tag if you remove all of her advantages over Bernie like multiplying Wendy's damage, having an invincibility shield, and having an AoE attack.

 

Sound like a deal?

 

[Mike23Ua]

Because Abigail is no longer Wendy’s ONLY core feature?

she can drink Elixers now, cheap Revive & relocate graves and summon her own boss fighting ghosts from them.

[Steorra]

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

she can drink Elixers now, cheap Revive & relocate graves and summon her own boss fighting ghosts from them.

Which could be core?

[Mike23Ua]

Just now, Steorra said:

Which could be core?

They’re ALL Core, same as how collecting fire embers and using firemage powers or using Bernie are core to Willow.

Same as how using Treeguard Totems or Wereform mutations as Woodie is core to him.

People just want Wendy to be the most broken character you’ve ever seen, and I fear Klei will actually listen to those people rather than listen to logic.

If Wendy sucks at fighting bosses still- Buff her King Boos.. not Abigail.

Same as how you’d use Treeguard Totems as Woodie if your Wereforms weren’t Enough.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

They’re ALL Core, same as how collecting fire embers and using firemage powers or using Bernie are core to Willow.

 

Seriously? You mean there could be a character who mainly take responsibility of rescuing? Or there could be a character who mainly summoning ghost who are far weaker than breadlords?

I guess we have some misunderstanding about "Core feature".

For additional buff, WX78 have a core feature of it. Wraith wreath is just a joke.

[Mysterious box]

43 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I know Wendy has extremely advantage of DPS, but as a price she has manage a follower. This is extremely hard for those who used to play a normal single character. 

And as Wendy have to manage Abi, she should comparing with other characters who have to manage their follower or if they don't they lose almost all feature - and for this perspective, Webber Wurt and Maxwell would be the most reasonable character for the balance comparing. Though this is just my personal opinion.

If we move our logic into "If lost the follower, then lost almost all feature of the characters", then Abi is more closer to Spider army of Webber.

Wurt is too strong who even lose her army would be still far stronger than normal characters in battle (the wetness shield...)  but I personally think that is not her original design intention, so I bring her merms here.

I know, but it could be a special build, for who have interest of it. And that build does work well.

Especially for those who are too tired to cast fire spells.

I feel like this assessment comes from a lack of understanding of the characters. For example Wurt is strong but that's specifically because of the massive resource investment in setting up her merm guards as well as a continued resource investment in the king. To add to this if something happens to their homes she'll have to start over. Making matters even more expensive this army doesn't travel between servers doubling the work required if you want to use them on both shards compare that to Wendy who just interacts with Abigail's flower. Even the water armor defense is flawed as it's hard to stay wet outside of spring as you'll quickly dry off by doing nothing to maintain it and even with water balloons you'd have to near spam them so at that point you'd just be better off using healing food rather than juggling a stack of water balloons which could leave you in danger of freezing.

If you ask me if Wurt's followers are overturned I'd agree but you can't really fix that by nerfing the merms as they don't have all the luxuries that Abigial has. For example merms need to be able to solo content because they lack commands you can't call them out of combat or use them with any strategy meaning you can only currently give them one of two states. Either they kill content or they can't and if you place them in the they can't category via nerfs it calls into question all the work you have to put in to use them effectively. Personaly I'd love if merms were nerfed in exchange for a more interactive playstyle with Wurts merms but I might be in the unpopular opinion territory and even if I wasn't the amount of work it'd take to implement would probably be enough to take up multiple updates.

When it comes to Webber he falls into a similar but different category but somewhere in between Wendy and Wurt. Building up his army takes time like Wurt but require little maintenance and a greater degree of control over his followers like Wendy but to a lesser extent for the latter compared to Wendy once his army is established the downside being that if something happens to his army or him he has to repeat the setup phase.

When it comes to Bernie in order to showcase his peak performance you have to sacrifice Willow's spells and even then it isn't very good beyond tanking. Also while Willow did get fire spells that was most likely due to them trying not to step on Wendy's toes since otherwise their only choice would have likely been to expand Bernie into a Abigial like with commands and higher dps.

To be clear the unique advantage Wendy has is she always has access to her follower, has the highest degree of control currently available to follower characters to date and does not require maintenance for her follower at base. So continuing to make her even more powerful simply throws off the balance of follower characters that's been established so far.

[Mike23Ua]

31 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Seriously? You mean there could be a character who mainly take responsibility of rescuing? Or there could be a character who mainly summoning ghost who are far weaker than breadlords?

I guess we have some misunderstanding about "Core feature".

For additional buff, WX78 have a core feature of it. Wraith wreath is just a joke.

Bro.. in addition to all the crazy changes they did to Abigail, they gave Wendy the ability to drink her Elixers, cheaper versions of revival after dying, BigSpook (the boss fighting Ghosts) And the ability to pick up and relocate any Grave in the game to be nearer to a boss fight for the ability to move the BigSpook where you wanna set them up.

Theres also a Elixir that restores Wendy’s blacked out portions of her damaged health core like a Booster Shot.

They've effectively Over-Buffed Wendy, and they LOCK threads asking for reasonably justified nerfs to balance that.

If THIS Version of Wendy goes live: I’ll likely find a new character to main or stop playing DST Altogether, it’s too much..

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like this assessment comes from a lack of understanding of the characters. For example Wurt is strong but that's specifically because of the massive resource investment in setting up her merm guards as well as a continued resource investment in the king. To add to this if something happens to their homes she'll have to start over. Making matters even more expensive this army doesn't travel between servers doubling the work required if you want to use them on both shards compare that to Wendy who just interacts with Abigail's flower. Even the water armor defense is flawed as it's hard to stay wet outside of spring as you'll quickly dry off by doing nothing to maintain it and even with water balloons you'd have to near spam them so at that point you'd just be better off using healing food rather than juggling a stack of water balloons which could leave you in danger of freezing.

If you ask me if Wurt's followers are overturned I'd agree but you can't really fix that by nerfing the merms as they don't have all the luxuries that Abigial has. For example merms need to be able to solo content because they lack commands you can't call them out of combat or use them with any strategy meaning you can only currently give them one of two states. Either they kill content or they can't and if you place them in the they can't category via nerfs it calls into question all the work you have to put in to use them effectively. Personaly I'd love if merms were nerfed in exchange for a more interactive playstyle with Wurts merms but I might be in the unpopular opinion territory and even if I wasn't the amount of work it'd take to implement would probably be enough to take up multiple updates.

When it comes to Webber he falls into a similar but different category but somewhere in between Wendy and Wurt. Building up his army takes time like Wurt but require little maintenance and a greater degree of control over his followers like Wendy but to a lesser extent for the latter compared to Wendy once his army is established the downside being that if something happens to his army or him he has to repeat the setup phase.

When it comes to Bernie in order to showcase his peak performance you have to sacrifice Willow's spells and even then it isn't very good beyond tanking. Also while Willow did get fire spells that was most likely due to them trying not to step on Wendy's toes since otherwise their only choice would have likely been to expand Bernie into a Abigial like with commands and higher dps.

To be clear the unique advantage Wendy has is she always has access to her follower, has the highest degree of control currently available to follower characters to date and does not require maintenance for her follower at base. So continuing to make her even more powerful simply throws off the balance of follower characters that's been established so far.

I would agree most of your words, even I may sharing some same understanding with you. I may accept that the Wurt part, as I know her has a terrible daily life (i.e the fish couldn't stack in your inventory, it's pain without mods). Also for willow is fair enough.

Hmm, but for Webber, let me thinking about the regroup process of him...

The most impactful problem here seems back to the Ghastly elixir again, I guess...

And I believe that Webber skill tree would trying to cover his main downside which of the regroup process and the spawner relocating.

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bro.. in addition to all the crazy changes they did to Abigail, they gave Wendy the ability to drink her Elixers, cheaper versions of revival after dying, BigSpook (the boss fighting Ghosts) And the ability to pick up and relocate any Grave in the game to be nearer to a boss fight for the ability to move the BigSpook where you wanna set them up.

Theres also a Elixir that restores Wendy’s blacked out portions of her damaged health core like a Booster Shot.

They've effectively Over-Buffed Wendy, and they LOCK threads asking for reasonably justified nerfs to balance that.

If THIS Version of Wendy goes live: I’ll likely find a new character to main or stop playing DST Altogether, it’s too much..

It seems we are going to off topic completely.

[hyoton123]

1 hour ago, Shining Galaxy said:

You asked why people don't use Burning Bernie, so my perspective is based on builds that do not use Burning Bernie.

The Planar Defense that Abigail acquires is significantly weaker than the Planar Entity that BERNIE acquires. These two concepts are easily confused. Abigail gets a fixed reduction against planar damage, whereas BERNIE gets a percentage reduction against physical damage—for example, taking 150 physical damage from a Deerclops, BERNIE takes 71.07 damage, while Abigail takes 150 damage (for Play Tag, this value is 75, but that has nothing to do with Planar Defense). When against creatures with planar damage, such as an Armored Bearger dealing 175 physical damage + 30 planar damage, Abigail would take 87.5 (Play Tag) + (30 - 15 Planar Defense) = 102.5 damage, while BERNIE! would take 78.56 (Planar Entity) + 30 = 108.56 damage. In other words, only when you have both Player Tag and Planar Defense does Abigail's trait become equivalent to BERNIE!'s, where the decisive factor is Player Tag, not Planar Defense.

Okay so in english you would call it planar entity protection.

 

Abigail is better against lots of small mobs with planar damage (bright eyed frogs, ink trio) whereas bernie is going to be better against big physical hits. This is in fact exactly in line with their design philosophies. Beyond that, you dont get PEP because abigail can mod 10x as much regen from cure all. Thats way too much bulk.

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I would agree most of your words, even I may sharing some same understanding with you. I may accept that the Wurt part, as I know her has a terrible daily life (i.e the fish couldn't stack in your inventory, it's pain without mods). Also for willow is fair enough.

Hmm, but for Webber, let me thinking about the regroup process of him...

The most impactful problem here seems back to the Ghastly elixir again, I guess...

And I believe that Webber skill tree would trying to cover his main downside which of the regroup process and the spawner relocating.

 

Honestly Webber is going to be a weird case as well I'd hope they don't let him make spawners since that would end up pushing him into to Wurt's territory while this again might be a unpopular opinion I think the way to go about him would be to make using his cookies more worthwhile as currently the only one most people use is the nurse ones. Perhaps with more stacks per cookie or something.

As for Wurt while I get people didn't like the skill tree powering her up I do understand where Klei was coming from with it as looking at it from the bigger picture the end result was to decrease the amount of work you had to put in to defeat bosses and build homes. As for example some bosses required merms in upwards of 50+ merms to defeat and that would be on both shards which even just considering the boards required would be over 500. Now a lot of bosses can be defeated with 20 guards so across 2 shards it would be 100 boards again not including the other resources involved.

[hyoton123]

26 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To be clear the unique advantage Wendy has is she always has access to her follower, has the highest degree of control currently available to follower characters to date and does not require maintenance for her follower at base. So continuing to make her even more powerful simply throws off the balance of follower characters that's been established so far.

Yes, exactly. She is easy to use.

 

[Mike23Ua]

22 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It seems we are going to off topic completely.

I don’t think I’m going off topic at all, You claim Abigail is Wendy’s only feature, and prior to the current beta I would’ve agreed with you… but that’s no longer the case and I’ve listed some of the key reasons why the beta changed that.

[1007954611]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I don’t think I’m going off topic at all, You claim Abigail is Wendy’s only feature, and prior to the current beta I would’ve agreed with you… but that’s no longer the case and I’ve listed some of the key reasons why the beta changed that.

The situation where Abigail is Wendy's only feature has not changed yet because the newly added abilities in beta are too weak and useless. What I mean is drink her Elixers, a night vision ability that can be easily replaced by Moggles, which is the only use of this skill

[Steorra]

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I don’t think I’m going off topic at all, You claim Abigail is Wendy’s only feature, and prior to the current beta I would’ve agreed with you… but that’s no longer the case and I’ve listed some of the key reasons why the beta changed that.

The point is that all feature of Wendy you have listed were incidental, but not "core" feature.

I may agree that Abi is not the "only feature" of Wendy now, but it's still the "only core feature" of her.

You may see Wolfgang has a feature which could make his followers dealt 2x damage, but that feature is not a core feature of Wolfgang.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

The point is that all feature of Wendy you have listed were incidental, but not "core" feature.

I may agree that Abi is not the "only feature" of Wendy now, but it's still the "only core feature" of her.

You may see Wolfgang has a feature which could make his followers dealt 2x damage, but that feature is not a core feature of Wolfgang.

Wolfgang’s “core feature” is still tied behind lifting a Dumbell or doing enough fighting/work to Buff up.

Wendy on the other hand just gets everything for Free with no work involved whatsoever. (And a lot of you people, not saying YOU specifically but forumer’s in general: Have already confessed to not using or barely using her Ecthoherbology Potions or the Sisturn)

Im pretty sure you can see where and why that’s wrong compared to literally the ENTIRE Rest of the games playable character Cast.

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgang’s “core feature” is still tied behind lifting a Dumbell or doing enough fighting/work to Buff up.

Wendy on the other hand just gets everything for Free with no work involved whatsoever. (And a lot of you people, not saying YOU specifically but forumer’s in general: Have already confessed to not using or barely using her Ecthoherbology Potions or the Sisturn)

So you just simply ignore the problem of Wendy would lose her only core feature if Abi dead.

Wendy have free feature? So you think this is her core feature but not Abi? If this is your view I guess no need for further discussion.